Delta TA on SCOPE

[General Lee]

Why don't you vote no, and demand one list for all DAL flying. Solves ALL your problems!

Demand? With what leverage? We don't know management's plans, and we have had zero help in pattern bargaining from any other legacy out there. They can't get their acts together. Instead, let's shrink DCI by 80 hulls but then grow mainline with a ratio, and hire at least 35% minimum for each class pilots from ALPA DCI carriers. Management can't get the same costs Regionals offer on feed. It's just not realistic. It would be nice, but it won't work.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

What is abundantly clear is that most of the "no" voters have very little understanding of the RLA and how the current NMB sees their role in administering it. If you think the NMB is going to help you kick management's ass, then you're living in a fantasy world.

 

[jonjuan]

What is abundantly clear is that most of the "no" voters have very little understanding of the RLA and how the current NMB sees their role in administering it. If you think the NMB is going to help you kick management's ass, then you're living in a fantasy world.

Someone wishes they were able to be hired by delta and continue their career with ALPA.

 

[Turtle21]

... If you think the NMB is going to help you kick management's ass, then you're living in a fantasy world.

That is funny. I was thinking the same thing about ALPA!

 

[waveflyer]

General,

Delta is the only big 3 airline that allows outsourcing >70 seats.
I am not asking for a home run.
I'm asking you to not legitimize the outsourcing of -900's by allowing delta to just about double the amount of -900's it currently has flying at the regionals.

The excuse for outsourcing -900's at all was that you had a "gun to your head" during Bk.
You General Lee, have claimed that the only reason -900's are outsourced at all is bc of BANKRUPTCY. You said, DALPA would never outsource them outside of BK.

So my questions to you are-
1) is delta in BK now?
2) how are you not selfish sellouts if you pass this TA out of BK?

Demand? With what leverage? We don't know management's plans, and we have had zero help in pattern bargaining from any other legacy out there. They can't get their acts together. Instead, let's shrink DCI by 80 hulls but then grow mainline with a ratio, and hire at least 35% minimum for each class pilots from ALPA DCI carriers. Management can't get the same costs Regionals offer on feed. It's just not realistic. It would be nice, but it won't work.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[waveflyer]

What is abundantly clear is that most of the "no" voters have very little understanding of the RLA and how the current NMB sees their role in administering it. If you think the NMB is going to help you kick management's ass, then you're living in a fantasy world.

Why do you guys think that delta HAS to double down on outsourcing more -900's, when they are the only big 3 legacy that currently allows that large an aircraft?

And PCL, has any ALPA organization ever made a decision you have not tirelessly worked to defend on FI?

 

[PCL_128]

Why do you guys think that delta HAS to double down on outsourcing more -900's, when they are the only big 3 legacy that currently allows that large an aircraft?

I disagree with your premise. Delta isn't "doubling down" on anything. They are reducing the total number of outsourced seats, airframes, block hours, and ASMs. That's an improvement all around.

And PCL, has any ALPA organization ever made a decision you have not tirelessly worked to defend on FI?

You must not pay very close attention. I vigorously argued against ALPA's change in position on the Age 60 rule in 2007. I'm sure the old posts are still there if you want to search for them. I'm still pissed off about how that was handled. There are plenty of other examples of times when I've disagreed with ALPA International or individual MECs. I can think of a few examples of things going on right now that I disagree with, in fact. None of which has anything to do with the current discussion. You are merely deflecting since people are starting to bring up the hypocrisy, such as SWAPA's patent approval of the company forcing new hires to buy type ratings before starting training, or SWAPA pilots working for decades under substandard conditions while the ALPA legacy carriers fought for improvements.

In other words, to quote Christ, "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." - Matthew 7:5

 

[waveflyer]

Wow, now the bible.

Fair enough PCL on your alpa cheerleading-

But why do you guys bring in SWA when I don't mention it? Do I always have to defend everything swa has ever done in order to speak an opinion born out of well over a decade of airline experience before I got hired at swa? Do you want to pull up my posts prior to be hired at swa- and you'll find me slamming every legacy for their outsourcing.

And even still, you really think the type is comparable to outsourcing?? You think that a free, independent union coming to terms on lower wages than some may like is comparable to outsourcing??

Really?

Because here's the difference. (and this really pisses me off)
SWA, VA F9, Spirit, allegiant,controls inline not outsourced controls their destiny within the boundaries of their scope. . Outsourcing creates a fake market, where regional pilots are whipsawed against each other to artificially keep wages low, where said regional pilots GET NO VOTE IN WHAT FLYING COMES TO THEM- WHERE IF THEY TAKE ANY MEASURE ALLOWED UNDER THE RLA TO EXERT LEVERAGE AND INCREASE THEIR WAGES AND WORK RULES- FLYING WILL SIMPLY BE TRANSFERRED TO ANOTHER COMPANY WITH AN OPERATING CERTIFICATE- ALL SOLD TO MAINLINE AS A RESPONSE TO COMPETITIVE PRESSURES FROM OTHER COMPANIES. ???

IE: INSTEAD OF RESPONDING TO COMPETITION WITH PAY CUTS (which happened anyway) IT'S JUSTIFIABLE IN THE MIND OF THE MAINLINE PILOT TO LET OTHER PILOTS SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT COMPETITION INSTEAD OF THEM.

IT'S CHICKENSH/T COWARDLY STUFF.

You're bathsh/t crazy if you support this TA. And dead wrong on this issue PCL. Sickening to see anyone defend this.

Where is the scope battle PCL industry wide?? Does it lay in large rj's or small ones that are economically going away anyway?

 

[bri5150]

I think the argument here is that the 200's are going away regardless of whether the ta passes or not. The DALPA folks are trying to take credit like they are the ones that decided they were going to go away. Like it was a hard fought battle with management to reduce the number of 200's in the system. Gee, I wonder why negotiations were so quick? Management: "you guys are okay with taking credit for an airframe already going away? Done, sign on the dotted line."

 

[PCL_128]

Wow, now the bible.

A little melodrama sometimes does well to make a point.

But why do you guys bring in SWA when I don't mention it?

Because the hypocrisy is so heavy that you might as well be beating everyone over the head with it. It's blatantly obvious to anyone outside the SWA "bubble" that a SWAPA pilot criticizing a legacy pilot group for not "holding the line" is just about the most absurd thing imaginable. Just over a decade ago, the Delta pilots were ratifying the most expensive pilot contract in history. Now, here you are so proud of your CBA when it isn't even a shadow of DAL Contract '01. The piloting profession has fallen quite far, and a big part of the reason is carriers like SWA and JetBlue (and yes, AirTran) who were paying their pilots far less than the legacy carriers were making. SWAPA made no attempt to follow the industry pattern. They were perfectly content making a fraction of what the Delta pilots were making. This wasn't 50 years ago, wave, this was a mere 11 years ago. This wasn't before our time. Both of us were in the industry at the time. You're well aware of it. It isn't news to you. So where is your criticism of SWAPA for failing to engage in pattern bargaining to advance the profession? Where is your criticism of SWAPA for being willing to undercut the legacy pilot groups? Until we see some of that criticism, then your criticism of DALPA is nothing more than blatant hypocrisy.

And even still, you really think the type is comparable to outsourcing?? You think that a free, independent union coming to terms on lower wages than some may like is comparable to outsourcing??

The type? No, not really. That's small potatoes. It's still wrong, though, and SWAPA should at least make an effort to put a stop to it (many ALPA pilot groups used bargaining capital in the past to put an end to PFT schemes). But the overall issue of SWAPA's substandard contract prior to 2004? Yes, that's most certainly comparable to outsourcing in terms of damage done to the profession. The lower wages, the lack of a pension, and the work rules that allowed lower staffing levels all placed immense pressure on the legacy pilot groups in bankruptcy court. There wasn't a bankruptcy judge in the country who was going to allow the Delta, USAirways, United, Continental, or Northwest pilots to keep their pensions and pay rates while other mainline carriers were out there attracting hoards of pilots willing to do the job for nothing more than a 401k, 60% of the pay, and more block time. Can you honestly not see this?

Because here's the difference. (and this really pisses me off)
SWA, VA F9, Spirit, allegiant,controls inline not outsourced controls their destiny within the boundaries of their scope. . Outsourcing creates a fake market, where regional pilots are whipsawed against each other to artificially keep wages low, where said regional pilots GET NO VOTE IN WHAT FLYING COMES TO THEM- WHERE IF THEY TAKE ANY MEASURE ALLOWED UNDER THE RLA TO EXERT LEVERAGE AND INCREASE THEIR WAGES AND WORK RULES- FLYING WILL SIMPLY BE TRANSFERRED TO ANOTHER COMPANY WITH AN OPERATING CERTIFICATE- ALL SOLD TO MAINLINE AS A RESPONSE TO COMPETITIVE PRESSURES FROM OTHER COMPANIES. ???

IE: INSTEAD OF RESPONDING TO COMPETITION WITH PAY CUTS (which happened anyway) IT'S JUSTIFIABLE IN THE MIND OF THE MAINLINE PILOT TO LET OTHER PILOTS SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT COMPETITION INSTEAD OF THEM.

IT'S CHICKENSH/T COWARDLY STUFF.

You're bathsh/t crazy if you support this TA. And dead wrong on this issue PCL. Sickening to see anyone defend this.

Where is the scope battle PCL industry wide?? Does it lay in large rj's or small ones that are economically going away anyway?

Again, as I've said repeatedly, I don't disagree with you about the problems with outsourcing. I want it to end just as you do. My point is that your expectations of ending it abruptly are wildly unrealistic. The problem can be solved, but not the way you think it can. The DAL TA is the first step. The UAL/CAL TA will hopefully be the next step with further improvements. This is pattern bargaining. It takes time, and it's the only way we're going to get anywhere. Because I can assure you, management isn't going to agree to what you want them to agree to, and the NMB isn't going to force them. Therefore, you have zero leverage to accomplish your goal. What you advocate would be a recipe for the Delta pilots living under a bankruptcy era contract indefinitely. That's not a solution for outsourcing, that's just stubbornness and emotional thinking.