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Delta TA = ALPAs failure of representation for regionals

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What is the language for Delta starting another SONG? Or creating another Compass to fly those 70 planes or even the 100 seater? Delta could say they are Delta pilots at another certificate? Don't get your panties all bunched up, its just a question. I have not read the Delta contract (its no longer a TA people).
 
you are totally right xjhawk, Delta could close pinnacle down and start a new airline purchasing the mesaba certificate that is still running and call it compass 2. They could place all 70 900's and hire all new pilots there and the rest of us would pound sand. there is just no telling what is going on or what will happen.
 
i fly boxes said:
you are totally right xjhawk, Delta could close pinnacle down and start a new airline purchasing the mesaba certificate that is still running and call it compass 2. They could place all 70 900's and hire all new pilots there and the rest of us would pound sand. there is just no telling what is going on or what will happen.
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The best thing you can do at this point is move onto a Major. It might sting at first (QOL, pay) but IMO, you will be happier and make more $ in the long run. I would not bet my career on a Regional (too much shuffling and uncertainty).
 
dojetdriver said:
If only it were that easy every time there's a contract vote.

As opposed to the fragmented groups that ONLY vote for their own self interest.

More seats at the regional level? Fukc it, I'm senior, won't affect me.....

More regional aircraft allowed but HOLY COW, LOOK AT THOSE PAY RATES!! Look how much money I'm] gonna make!!!!!!!
(UAL contract 200/DAL contract 2001)

Let's see, this CBA isn't really that great, but I should vote YES since I'm gonna retire in a couple years so I want the pay raise NOW before I retire. As opposed to to it dragging out a few more years and [I/b] miss out on that money. Who cares about what happens after I get my money and leave.

I know you been around a while and have worked in various union capacities, etc. But if you don't think the mentality exists amongst ANY pilot group you're not paying attention. It's been going on since the beginning. Especially at a legacy level where there's more demographics and more division of interests within the pilot group as a whole.
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This is exactly spot on...It is much easier to simply accept this fact of human nature (and specifically airline pilot human nature) then to try and change it.

I used to be an ALPA cheerleader too and tried to rally the troops to change behavior, but it became painfully obvious that was just urinating in the wind...The last straw was when I suggested we offer Comair pilots their DOH seniority as they were being drawn down and killed off by Delta. I was crucified...even by some of our union reps.

It's much easier to simply accept reality than to try and alter it.....
 
PCL_128 said:
Again, those pilots already fly Delta passengers in airplanes that say Delta on the side. If Delta is ok with outsourcing their passengers to those pilots, then they can't complain about flowing them up as far as I'm concerned. Don't like the quality of pilot at certain regionals? Then you shouldn't be outsourcing to them in the first place.
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Welcome back to the debate PCL...You sound very much like I did many years ago. The only reason this 35 percent hiring language was in there was because of the RJDC settlement.....It's token language to try and appease this side of the fence...

The true solution was a single list back when the PID was proposed....However that ship has sailed and now everyone just needs to accept it and move on...The conflict of interest will remain.
 
The conflict of interest is imaginary, Joe. It doesn't exist. What does exist is mainline pilot arrogance.
 
PCL_128 said:
The conflict of interest is imaginary, Joe. It doesn't exist. What does exist is mainline pilot arrogance.
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You have to say the first part of your statement because you sit at one of those fancy conference tables in Herndon now.....The second part of your statement has always been true...
 
xjhawk said:
The Pinnacle union is only concerned with the careers of the senior lifers. The top 300 or so. One of the biggest reasons the company is not competitive is because of how senior it is but the union will not allow their most senior to take a hit by themselves even though they have let the junior and the FO's take huge hits in the past while they gained from what was going on. Need examples? XJ 05' contract and the SLI. enough said. Time to leave.
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I find it interesting that the management everywhere is telling employees the same thing: you're too senior, therefore not competitive. If Pinnacle that actually has some 1st and 2nd year employees is not competitive, then who, pray tell, is?
 
dojetdriver said:
So with the yes/no percentages, you pooled EVERY pilot and feel you got the pulse on their overall reasons for voting?
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Obviously not. I'm just saying that the TA had plenty of merit, and voting in favor of it was the smart move, not just a selfish move.
 
flyboyike said:
I find it interesting that the management everywhere is telling employees the same thing: you're too senior, therefore not competitive. If Pinnacle that actually has some 1st and 2nd year employees is not competitive, then who, pray tell, is?
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GoJets. That's who we're all competing against now. The new kid on the block was very strategically brought in by Delta for this very reason. " Look everyone.....GoJets is cheaper." And it's true, they are. If that's the direction Delta wants to go, let them! They have lower rates, less longevity, less benefits, less soft time, etc, etc, etc. that is the gold standard that Upper Delta management uses to pound lower rates from everyone. The only problem is, those companies must slash costs from somewhere to be able to make some sort of small profit.
 
Delta pilot could make an addition that all new 70-90 seat aircraft will go to a wholly owned carrier. At least keep the flying somewhat in house.
 
ex j-41 said:
Delta pilot could make an addition that all new 70-90 seat aircraft will go to a wholly owned carrier. At least keep the flying somewhat in house.
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Why would any Delta pilot want to waste any kind of negotiating capitol on this especially after the Comair guys refused to endorse hiring of the Delta furloughs AT THE BOTTOM of the Comair seniority list a few years back. They finally agreed only after the new airplane carrot was dangled in front of their face back in the JC Lawson days. What goes around comes around.
 
Nevets said:
There is no conflict of interest.
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Well that settles it then....The mighty Nevets has declared that there is no conflict of interest....Meanwhile the conflict will continue while you declare that it doesn't exist...
 
I would call it a conflict of interest if my interest's and alpa's were not same. If I am without a job after this, I would call that a conflict of my interest.
 
Each MEC negotiates their own contracts. There isn't a conflict of interest.
 
PCL_128 said:
Each MEC negotiates their own contracts. There isn't a conflict of interest.
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True, but each MEC is represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, and ALPA signs each agreement thus becoming a legal party to said agreement...hence the conflict of interest.

This is deja vu all over again....
 
There would only be a conflict if the ALPA President tried to intrude on individual MEC negotiations and tell them how they are going to negotiate their agreements. As you know, that doesn't happen. He just signs what is put in front of him, unless it violates an ALPA policy in the Administrative Manual or Constitutional & Bylaws.

The reality is that each MEC negotiates their own CBAs without any interference or direction from ALPA International. As long as that is true, any claims of a conflict of interest are patently false.
 
PCL_128 said:
Each MEC negotiates their own contracts. There isn't a conflict of interest.
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EXACTLY! Each pilot group is their own sovereign union when negotiating their contract. Mainline MEC decide what aircraft is not good enough for them to fly. Then mainline management go to regional management and decide which one will be the lucky one to get to fly those aircraft. Then the regional management negotiate with regional MECs on the terms for flying that particular scrap. At no time does the mainline MEC tell the regional MEC what to negotiate and at no time does the regional MEC tell the mainline MEC what to negotiate for.

ALPA is just an umbrella just as CAPA is to SWAPA, APA, IPA, USAPA, IBT. No one says there is a conflict of interest there. So where is the conflict of interest in the independent unions of ALPA?
 
PCL_128 said:
There would only be a conflict if the ALPA President tried to intrude on individual MEC negotiations and tell them how they are going to negotiate their agreements. As you know, that doesn't happen. He just signs what is put in front of him, unless it violates an ALPA policy in the Administrative Manual or Constitutional & Bylaws.

The reality is that each MEC negotiates their own CBAs without any interference or direction from ALPA International. As long as that is true, any claims of a conflict of interest are patently false.
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Kind of like CC Air?
 
BOX OFFICE said:
Kind of like CC Air?
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The CCAir MEC violated ALPA policy by engaging in concessionary bargaining without the company demonstrating a need for the concessions. The ALPA president cannot sign off on a CBA that is in violation of the ALPA Bylaws or Administrative Manual.
 
PCL_128 said:
The CCAir MEC violated ALPA policy by engaging in concessionary bargaining without the company demonstrating a need for the concessions. The ALPA president cannot sign off on a CBA that is in violation of the ALPA Bylaws or Administrative Manual.
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Oh, I see. So it's illegal for ALPA National to interfere except for when they deem it necessary to interfere. Got it!
 
PCL_128 said:
The conflict of interest is imaginary, Joe. It doesn't exist. What does exist is mainline pilot arrogance.
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Delta makes more money from its regional contracts than any other carrier. A significant part of that profit goes straight into the pockets of Delta pilots (pay rates). ASA, CMR and RAH are all in section 6 negotiations. PCL is in concessionary BK negotiations. Sooo....Delta pilots set up the mother of all whipsaws - in order to put more money in their own pockets. How can you say there is not a conflict of interest?

Delta will use GoJets as a 'stalking horse' and CMR as an example of what will happen if you don't play the game. Delta could still give all the new AC to a new or resurrected certificate, a la Compass. The total number of 'regional' pilots is going to decrease and they will make less than they could have. So that Delta pilots can make more.

Delta pilots in their greed fell for the same bait they have repeatedly taken before. They had an opportunity to turn the tide on this 'regional' nonsense. Rather than negotiate all 'widget' tail flying into their own agreement they beggared their brothers to put more money in their pockets.

If ALPA doesn't try and save the day and approach this as an opportunity for 'pattern bargaining' even I will through out my ALPA hat.

The former CAL and NWA groups are the only 'main line' pilots that have ever made a serious attempt at stopping this madness.
 
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