Delta TA = ALPAs failure of representation for regionals

[titans10]

It's going to get very ugly at the regional level rather quickly.

 

[PCL_128]

I know you been around a while and have worked in various union capacities, etc. But if you don't think the mentality exists amongst ANY pilot group you're not paying attention. It's been going on since the beginning.

I don't dispute that. And I condemn it just as you do. But I don't think that applies in this case with this TA.

 

[Flyer1015]

Yes, but there was no flow-through, which is how it should work. I'm betting that was DALPA's demand, not management's. The pilots there have always had a little bit too much of an ego about your hiring process. Letting pilots who have already been flying Delta passengers flow up to Delta is the right thing to do, rather than forcing them to go through an interview process just for the privilege of flying the same passengers that they've already been flying.

Disagree. One still should be interviewed. There are plenty of DCI pilots who have no business being in a customer service industry. How many times have you flown with someone on an RJ and thought, I can't wait for this to be over. Now compare a 50 minute RJ flight to a 14 hour flight to Dubai. There's got to be a process so they can still weed out these types of personalities without having to accept them because they are simply DCI.

 

[PCL_128]

I've ridden on plenty of Delta mainline jumpseats and thought "man, it would really suck to be flying with this a-hole for a whole trip." It's not a regional/mainline thing. Some people just suck. If mainline is ok with outsourcing the flying to the carrier that employs that pilot you're talking about, then they should have no problem flowing him up to mainline.

 

[Flyer1015]

I've ridden on plenty of Delta mainline jumpseats and thought "man, it would really suck to be flying with this a-hole for a whole trip." It's not a regional/mainline thing. Some people just suck. If mainline is ok with outsourcing the flying to the carrier that employs that pilot you're talking about, then they should have no problem flowing him up to mainline.

Again, disagree. Because certain DCI carriers, like Pinnacle, have hired and given class dates to pilots WITHOUT even interviewing! There was a program in place for students graduating from Western Michigan and Oklahoma State (I think). But it is fact that 9E took pilots without interviewing. Personally, that should never have happened, because an airline needs a weed-out process to at least *attempt* at keeping the bad apples out. In the 2004-2007 era, regionals were desperate and hiring anyone who could fog a mirror. That hiring standard should be higher than that at a place like Delta.

 

[PCL_128]

Again, those pilots already fly Delta passengers in airplanes that say Delta on the side. If Delta is ok with outsourcing their passengers to those pilots, then they can't complain about flowing them up as far as I'm concerned. Don't like the quality of pilot at certain regionals? Then you shouldn't be outsourcing to them in the first place.

 

[Flyer1015]

Again, those pilots already fly Delta passengers in airplanes that say Delta on the side. If Delta is ok with outsourcing their passengers to those pilots, then they can't complain about flowing them up as far as I'm concerned. Don't like the quality of pilot at certain regionals? Then you shouldn't be outsourcing to them in the first place.

Yes, but why stop the parallel there? How about safety? Remember those Colgan 3407 hearings? Where the major airline leaders (ATA types) were asked if they would support a one level of safety and take responsibility for safety issues at their regional counterparts... "we're gonna have to get back to you on that."

Delta doesn't know or have any hand in hiring at Pinnacle or any other DCI carrier. The contract spells out what flying is to be done by whichever carrier, at whatever agreed cost. Maybe Delta assumed that their DCI partner would actually have a hiring standard that was more than just the ability to fog a mirror?

 

[General Lee]

Yes, but there was no flow-through, which is how it should work. I'm betting that was DALPA's demand, not management's. The pilots there have always had a little bit too much of an ego about your hiring process. Letting pilots who have already been flying Delta passengers flow up to Delta is the right thing to do, rather than forcing them to go through an interview process just for the privilege of flying the same passengers that they've already been flying.

Many Comair guys stated that too, and threw in that they should get DOH at DL too. It hasn't worked out so well for them since then. Delta used to hire ex military guys exclusively, and although that isn't the case now, they still want that ability to grab some of those guys too. Management owns the hiring.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[RJLoser]

Disagree. One still should be interviewed. There are plenty of DCI pilots who have no business being in a customer service industry. How many times have you flown with someone on an RJ and thought, I can't wait for this to be over. Now compare a 50 minute RJ flight to a 14 hour flight to Dubai. There's got to be a process so they can still weed out these types of personalities without having to accept them because they are simply DCI.

Based on your demeanor at PCL....I find it odd you are having this argument.

 

[xjhawk]

The Pinnacle union is only concerned with the careers of the senior lifers. The top 300 or so. One of the biggest reasons the company is not competitive is because of how senior it is but the union will not allow their most senior to take a hit by themselves even though they have let the junior and the FO's take huge hits in the past while they gained from what was going on. Need examples? XJ 05' contract and the SLI. enough said. Time to leave.

 

[xjhawk]

What is the language for Delta starting another SONG? Or creating another Compass to fly those 70 planes or even the 100 seater? Delta could say they are Delta pilots at another certificate? Don't get your panties all bunched up, its just a question. I have not read the Delta contract (its no longer a TA people).

 

[i fly boxes]

you are totally right xjhawk, Delta could close pinnacle down and start a new airline purchasing the mesaba certificate that is still running and call it compass 2. They could place all 70 900's and hire all new pilots there and the rest of us would pound sand. there is just no telling what is going on or what will happen.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

you are totally right xjhawk, Delta could close pinnacle down and start a new airline purchasing the mesaba certificate that is still running and call it compass 2. They could place all 70 900's and hire all new pilots there and the rest of us would pound sand. there is just no telling what is going on or what will happen.

The best thing you can do at this point is move onto a Major. It might sting at first (QOL, pay) but IMO, you will be happier and make more $ in the long run. I would not bet my career on a Regional (too much shuffling and uncertainty).

 

[JoeMerchant]

If only it were that easy every time there's a contract vote.

As opposed to the fragmented groups that ONLY vote for their own self interest.

More seats at the regional level? Fukc it, I'm senior, won't affect me.....

More regional aircraft allowed but HOLY COW, LOOK AT THOSE PAY RATES!! Look how much money I'm] gonna make!!!!!!!
(UAL contract 200/DAL contract 2001)

Let's see, this CBA isn't really that great, but I should vote YES since I'm gonna retire in a couple years so I want the pay raise NOW before I retire. As opposed to to it dragging out a few more years and [I/b] miss out on that money. Who cares about what happens after I get my money and leave.

I know you been around a while and have worked in various union capacities, etc. But if you don't think the mentality exists amongst ANY pilot group you're not paying attention. It's been going on since the beginning. Especially at a legacy level where there's more demographics and more division of interests within the pilot group as a whole.

This is exactly spot on...It is much easier to simply accept this fact of human nature (and specifically airline pilot human nature) then to try and change it.

I used to be an ALPA cheerleader too and tried to rally the troops to change behavior, but it became painfully obvious that was just urinating in the wind...The last straw was when I suggested we offer Comair pilots their DOH seniority as they were being drawn down and killed off by Delta. I was crucified...even by some of our union reps.

It's much easier to simply accept reality than to try and alter it.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Again, those pilots already fly Delta passengers in airplanes that say Delta on the side. If Delta is ok with outsourcing their passengers to those pilots, then they can't complain about flowing them up as far as I'm concerned. Don't like the quality of pilot at certain regionals? Then you shouldn't be outsourcing to them in the first place.

Welcome back to the debate PCL...You sound very much like I did many years ago. The only reason this 35 percent hiring language was in there was because of the RJDC settlement.....It's token language to try and appease this side of the fence...

The true solution was a single list back when the PID was proposed....However that ship has sailed and now everyone just needs to accept it and move on...The conflict of interest will remain.

 

[PCL_128]

The conflict of interest is imaginary, Joe. It doesn't exist. What does exist is mainline pilot arrogance.

 

[Flyer1015]

The conflict of interest is imaginary, Joe. It doesn't exist. What does exist is mainline pilot arrogance.

You're living in some dream land if you think there is no conflict of interest.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The conflict of interest is imaginary, Joe. It doesn't exist. What does exist is mainline pilot arrogance.

You have to say the first part of your statement because you sit at one of those fancy conference tables in Herndon now.....The second part of your statement has always been true...

 

[dojetdriver]

But I don't think that applies in this case with this TA.

So with the yes/no percentages, you pooled EVERY pilot and feel you got the pulse on their overall reasons for voting?

 

[flyboyike]

The Pinnacle union is only concerned with the careers of the senior lifers. The top 300 or so. One of the biggest reasons the company is not competitive is because of how senior it is but the union will not allow their most senior to take a hit by themselves even though they have let the junior and the FO's take huge hits in the past while they gained from what was going on. Need examples? XJ 05' contract and the SLI. enough said. Time to leave.

I find it interesting that the management everywhere is telling employees the same thing: you're too senior, therefore not competitive. If Pinnacle that actually has some 1st and 2nd year employees is not competitive, then who, pray tell, is?