Delta TA = ALPAs failure of representation for regionals

[Nevets]

Oh, I see. So it's illegal for ALPA National to interfere except for when they deem it necessary to interfere. Got it!

That is not what I got from what he wrote. If the TA complies with the administrative manual, the president is required to sign it. He has no discretion on the matter either way. He is just an administrator who does what he is told via the constitution & by-laws, administrative manual, and resolutions. It would have been illegal for him not to interfere in that particular case.

Delta makes more money from its regional contracts than any other carrier. A significant part of that profit goes straight into the pockets of Delta pilots (pay rates). ASA, CMR and RAH are all in section 6 negotiations. PCL is in concessionary BK negotiations. Sooo....Delta pilots set up the mother of all whipsaws - in order to put more money in their own pockets. How can you say there is not a conflict of interest?

Delta will use GoJets as a 'stalking horse' and CMR as an example of what will happen if you don't play the game. Delta could still give all the new AC to a new or resurrected certificate, a la Compass. The total number of 'regional' pilots is going to decrease and they will make less than they could have. So that Delta pilots can make more.

Delta pilots in their greed fell for the same bait they have repeatedly taken before. They had an opportunity to turn the tide on this 'regional' nonsense. Rather than negotiate all 'widget' tail flying into their own agreement they beggared their brothers to put more money in their pockets.

That is management doing that, not the pilots.

 

[titans10]

Delta makes more money from its regional contracts than any other carrier. A significant part of that profit goes straight into the pockets of Delta pilots (pay rates). ASA, CMR and RAH are all in section 6 negotiations. PCL is in concessionary BK negotiations. Sooo....Delta pilots set up the mother of all whipsaws - in order to put more money in their own pockets. How can you say there is not a conflict of interest?

Delta will use GoJets as a 'stalking horse' and CMR as an example of what will happen if you don't play the game. Delta could still give all the new AC to a new or resurrected certificate, a la Compass. The total number of 'regional' pilots is going to decrease and they will make less than they could have. So that Delta pilots can make more.

Delta pilots in their greed fell for the same bait they have repeatedly taken before. They had an opportunity to turn the tide on this 'regional' nonsense. Rather than negotiate all 'widget' tail flying into their own agreement they beggared their brothers to put more money in their pockets.

If ALPA doesn't try and save the day and approach this as an opportunity for 'pattern bargaining' even I will through out my ALPA hat.

The former CAL and NWA groups are the only 'main line' pilots that have ever made a serious attempt at stopping this madness.

So, You wanted delta or anyother mainline pilot to think about the regionals while they are deciding how to vote. Got it. When you are deciding on your contract. Don't forget to help the mainline pilots.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Interesting. The DAL pilots also see a conflict of interest but through a slightly different lens: Too much regional influence at ALPA national. A net flow of funds away from the Delta pilot group and towards ALPA national and -- by extension -- regional pilot groups. The trend of taking flying from mainline and giving it to regional carriers (reversed by C2012, thankfully.) And, a kick below the belt for a lot of guys who remember Lawson's vendetta against Delta furloughees, the requirement to staff 35% of new hire classes from Connection. That last one caused a lot of consternation.

So, yes. There is most definitely a conflict of interest.

 

[ex j-41]

All pilots would be better off if all flying was done in house.
2nd best would be all regional flying at wholly owned.
3rd would be 3rd party companies. Ie colgan, Skywest etc.

Comair pilots tried their best in 2001 to increase pay and QOL at regionals. They should not be punished like they have been for doing this.
It would be very easy for delta pilots to add a clause that all 70-90 seat airplanes must be flown at a wholly owned and give delta pilots flow up and down rights.

 

[GogglesPisano]

It would be very easy for delta pilots to add a clause that all 70-90 seat airplanes must be flown at a wholly owned.

Define "very easy." And, while you're at it, where's the return on (negotiating) investment for Delta pilots?

 

[titans10]

All pilots would be better off if all flying was done in house.
2nd best would be all regional flying at wholly owned.
3rd would be 3rd party companies. Ie colgan, Skywest etc.

Comair pilots tried their best in 2001 to increase pay and QOL at regionals. They should not be punished like they have been for doing this.
It would be very easy for delta pilots to add a clause that all 70-90 seat airplanes must be flown at a wholly owned and give delta pilots flow up and down rights.

It would be easy also for regionals to add flow down for mainline guys also. Are you ready to fight for that in your contract?

 

[CRJ puppy]

It would be easy also for regionals to add flow down for mainline guys also. Are you ready to fight for that in your contract?

In a word, Yes.

 

[titans10]

Then backup your words and do it.

 

[bluechunks]

Too funny

This TA, approved by ALPA at a major, directly will be responsible for job losses of regional pilots on 200 jets.

Excellent news!!!!

Perhaps folks will finally figure out that regional airlines are not really airlines but really mercenary crew leasing companies where the product is really labor.

When the major is providing the reimbursement for the aircraft lease, fuel, landing fees, gates, network planning (inc. sales), the only really profit potential for the "regional" is the difference between contract revenue and labor expenses. As a mercenary operation, the business plan is only as stable as the current regional feed contract. There is no guarantee of one to follow or a contract for the same major airline. Those jobs "lost" on the reduction of 200 RJ's were never stable or guaranteed in the first place, let alone forever.

This is not a slam on regional pilots. Regional airlines are what they are and a great place to get some experience and move on; but if anybody considers working for a single regional airline an option for an entire career they are nuts.

The net result of the DAL TA will be more mainline jobs. Might as well slam ALPA for that as well. Better jobs created = ALPA sux?

I just wish somebody could explain to me how DAL can make record profits in a recession while paying 2nd year F/O's more than VA pays captains while is VA losing money hand over fist????

 

[Broke in CVG]

How'd that work out for you?

It worked out real well for the lawyer.

sent from my crappy cell phone.

 

[Kaman]

Wait for it...Yep, MESA STILL SUCKS!

 

[bri5150]

I just wish somebody could explain to me how DAL can make record profits in a recession while paying 2nd year F/O's more than VA pays captains while is VA losing money hand over fist????

Hmmmm, it's not possible that pilot wages aren't the only factor in whether or not an airline makes money...is it? Management has trained me to believe my wage is the only thing that keeps us from making money, so it must be true.

 

[DoinTime]

It would be easy also for regionals to add flow down for mainline guys also. Are you ready to fight for that in your contract?

Provided the flow-down pilots are assigned the same spot on the seniority list that the flow-up pilots are offered, YES!

 

[titans10]

Yep just like you guys did for furloughed NWA guys/Gals.

 

[1.3XVso]

Before any flow down/up you must protect the 9e legacy pilots.

 

[Jetmann]

The truth of where the planes will go is where the crj 200's are now! They need to get rid of contracts and bombardier will not let them return these aircraft unless they order new 76 seat aircraft. Therefore starting a new company for the 76 seaters will not happen because the -200's cannot just be returned. If that was an option delta management would not have needed the new PWA allowing for this to happen. Remember management approached the pilot group not the other way around.

 

[bluechunks]

Before any flow down/up you must protect the 9e legacy pilots.

9E legacy pilots?

If the folks at 9E don't want to participate why not just let 9E go away and set up the flow up/down at the new replacement carrier? There is always a new one in the wings since DAL loves to play one off the other to keep costs (like legacy pilots) in check. With the coming bloodbath of parked 50 seaters this would be the opportune time.

It would be a different story if the 9E aircraft were not painted in DAL colors and 9E were an actual independent airline that actually flew its own routes and sold its own tickets. Just saying.

 

[i fly boxes]

9E legacy pilots, that makes me laugh. If someone wants to protect the mississippi and northern you betcha! flying clubs, give them early retirement and a bottle of viagra. The time has come to protect our future, not our past.
Its not going to happen anyways but If you are a senior pilot and we were offered a flow through, deal with it enjoy flying a bigger plane around for a little bit and then retire.

 

[russtgol]

The truth of where the planes will go is where the crj 200's are now! They need to get rid of contracts and bombardier will not let them return these aircraft unless they order new 76 seat aircraft. Therefore starting a new company for the 76 seaters will not happen because the -200's cannot just be returned. If that was an option delta management would not have needed the new PWA allowing for this to happen. Remember management approached the pilot group not the other way around.

How do you know that?

 

[SpauldingSmails]

The original thrust of this thread is specious at best. Even if a new PWA were not ratified at Delta, (i.e. no TA) it is still very likely that a large number of regional jets were on the chopping block and even lacking a new agreement it would have in no way have impeded DAL's ability to draw down the systemwide RJ fleet.

Fleet planning lies within in management's rights to direct their operation, unless the agreement states otherwise.

I contend this was bound to happen either way, the new PWA merely formalizes the process.