Delta Shuttle to be flown by Republic/Chautauqua/Shuttle America with "RJ's"

[~~~^~~~]

Your right, RJDC was all about scope, so long as it included ASA and CMR. My point is, where does it stop? What about the Mesa pilots, CHQ pilots, etc.? Where is the line?

In 2002 some of us at ASA still thought we had a play and we went around with information on that. Furloughed Delta pilots come down and fly our equipment, if they so desire, at their Delta DOH and in turn all ASA pilots be stapled to the bottom of the Delta list when vacancies there occur if the they so desire. Therefore those who wanna go can go and those who don't simply don't and the slot goes on to the next pilot. If this had occured the Delta pilots may have been willing to include ASA in their scope, not merge but include, therefore making sure that their own would have something to fly. It's a glorified flow-through, yes, but it was something. Instead some hard core RJDC folks didn't like this because scope was predatory and needed to be abolished all together and they should have a number at Delta.

Fins, you are a smart guy, I know, but the core of the followers of the RJDC that sent money loyally every month were in it for one reason, a number at Delta.

Cheers

Hmmm, I had not ever heard a flow through concept made it that far. I thought it got killed by some rather insensitive remarks by ASA's then MEC Chair in a meeting with C. Giambusso.

I like your idea and in fact, the Delta guys who came over where some really excellent pilots with great attitudes.

Ultimately, it was up to ALPA and Representatives of the respective airlines. I'd have drawn the line at wholly owned carriers represented by ALPA.

While I don't like flow through agreements in principle, I like forming bridges. IMHO we made a mistake by not trying to staple the wholly owned ALPA carriers in the DAL/NWA merger. If the Compass deal works out as a way to get them on the list, I'll be happy.

Instead we've really opened a pandora's box with the NWA scope. I'm concerned about the codeshare with MidWest being used, as well as Alaska, to virtually outsource DC9's, MD88's and 737 sized jets.

This same operator, Republic, will be flying Delta passengers with non-permitted aircraft.

 

[FDJ2]

Scope should never be about the "size" of an aircraft....It should include all members of the bargaining group to fly said flying in whatever size aircraft is appropriate.........

Since when has ASA ALPA ever been a member of the DAL ALPA bargaining group.

The RJDC was all about gutting the contractual protections which prevent unlimited outsourcing. It was all in the relief section of the frivolous lawsuit filed by Ford and his cronies.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Since when has ASA ALPA ever been a member of the DAL ALPA bargaining group.

The RJDC was all about gutting the contractual protections which prevent unlimited outsourcing. It was all in the relief section of the frivolous lawsuit filed by Ford and his cronies.

You won FDJ2....The DAL shuttle flying isn't going to those evil ASA and CMR pilots...It's going to the Republic folks....

You're right....we aren't one group....we are separate groups doing what is best for each of us.....A strange way to run a union...but you got what you wanted....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Man, how times have changed for the Mesaba pilots. Two years ago they were about to go the way of the do-do bird and now it is considered one of the top regionals.

Plug, that's the plan. To quote Bryan LaBreque "longevity is killing this airline." Without scope, these guys will go through cycles where they die as their costs get high. Once everyone turns over they will be the new low cost competitor with new pilots.

For "regional" pilots, their longevity will get killed in every cycle. For "mainline" pilots they will not be able to negotiate to get this flying back, because their longevity will make it prohibitively expensive even if the rates are rock bottom.

I've been saying all along this alter ego flying is a career killer from top to bottom.

 

[Plug]

Hmmm, I had not ever heard a flow through concept made it that far. I thought it got killed by some rather insensitive remarks by ASA's then MEC Chair in a meeting with C. Giambusso.

I like your idea and in fact, the Delta guys who came over where some really excellent pilots with great attitudes.

Ultimately, it was up to ALPA and Representatives of the respective airlines. I'd have drawn the line at wholly owned carriers represented by ALPA.

While I don't like flow through agreements in principle, I like forming bridges. IMHO we made a mistake by not trying to staple the wholly owned ALPA carriers in the DAL/NWA merger. If the Compass deal works out as a way to get them on the list, I'll be happy.

Instead we've really opened a pandora's box with the NWA scope. I'm concerned about the codeshare with MidWest being used, as well as Alaska, to virtually outsource DC9's, MD88's and 737 sized jets.

This same operator, Republic, will be flying Delta passengers with non-permitted aircraft.

Back in 2002 myself and some other pilots put together a petition in that we put in folks v-files stating what we thought would be a good system for securing DCI flying ASA. It involved what I wrote before and some vocal senior pilots pooh-poohed it during an LEC 112 meeting. It may not have been perfect but it would have been something.

You would have drawn the line at the wholly-owned airlines? Wouldn't that exclude and fly in the face of the lawsuit?

 

[~~~^~~~]

I agree and disagree. The CMR MEC had no leadership as JC was a flop. It was the line pilots at CMR that fought the good fight in 2000 and it was JC that stepped on their collective wankers. ASA had a hard-core unionist as it's MEC chair.

Worse, he threw a grenade at the Delta furloughed guys and that will not be forgotten.... Saw it again just last week.

He tried to play the brotherhood card, then stabbed people in the back.

I still have my "we support you sticker" the CMR MEC sent the same weekend they entered bargaining to try to undercut ASA.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Delta can't get out of its other RJ contracts (and yet keeps signing more contracts for the big RJ's )

That is because Delta does not want out of the regional jet market. Delta just wants to get rid of the 50 seaters. If Delta had its way, everything would be outsourced due to cheaper labor. Now it's the 76 seater. Next in line is Embraer 190's flown by the regionals that are only configured for 80 seats. Once they are on the property, Delta will give something to the union to let the company put 100 seats in the 190. This game has been played before. Our union is ALWAYS a step behind the company.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Back in 2002 myself and some other pilots put together a petition in that we put in folks v-files stating what we thought would be a good system for securing DCI flying ASA. It involved what I wrote before and some vocal senior pilots pooh-poohed it during an LEC 112 meeting. It may not have been perfect but it would have been something.

Setting the "integration method" aside for a moment....which I disagree with.....The main problem with yours and others is that the timing is wrong...

The window of opportunity was in 2000 when ALPA had leverage....By 2002, it was too late.....

Pilots only worry about job security when times are bad....which corresponds to the least amount of leverage to solve the problem...

When times are good....pilots don't care and just want more money and more time off......

 

[Plug]

Worse, he threw a grenade at the Delta furloughed guys and that will not be forgotten.... Saw it again just last week.

He tried to play the brotherhood card, then stabbed people in the back.

I still have my "we support you sticker" the CMR MEC sent the same weekend they entered bargaining to try to undercut ASA.

I still have the sticker and the letter it came in. Interestingly enough, JC sat next to John Malone at Bob's funeral, I sat behind them.

 

[~~~^~~~]

You would have drawn the line at the wholly-owned airlines? Wouldn't that exclude and fly in the face of the lawsuit?

As I recall the lawsuit asked for a renegotiation of CY2000 scope with Delta, ASA and Comair's Reps at the table. I'm pretty sure of that.

I'm not an expert once suit was filed. The RJDC had to kick me out because I refused to join the litigation and was outside the attorney - client ring of trust. Funny, but I've never even seen all the stuff sent out to ASA & Comair pilots as members of the class, or those who supported the RJDC.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Worse, he threw a grenade at the Delta furloughed guys and that will not be forgotten.... Saw it again just last week.

He tried to play the brotherhood card, then stabbed people in the back.

...as has the DAL MEC....that works both ways Fins....

We are separate and must work towards what is best for each of us....The DAL MEC doesn't do anything that isn't best for the DAL pilots....even if it hurts other groups....That is the single biggest failure of this "union".....

 

[Plug]

Setting the "integration method" aside for a moment....which I disagree with.....The main problem with yours and others is that the timing is wrong...

The window of opportunity was in 2000 when ALPA had leverage....By 2002, it was too late.....

Pilots only worry about job security when times are bad....which corresponds to the least amount of leverage to solve the problem...

When times are good....pilots don't care and just want more money and more time off......

I didn't know there was a time limit on these things. I do know that times change and in 2000 the Delta pilots were trying to one-up the UAL contract. In 2002 there were DAL pilots on the street while ASA was hiring and some of us at ASA were trying to get the DAL furloughs back in a cockpit flying DL code in some form or another while simultaneously trying to secure some outsourced flying and a number at the bottom of the Delta list for the ASA pilots. The timing couldn't have been more right, IMO, as the Delta pilots were no longer sitting on top of the world.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I didn't know there was a time limit on these things. I do know that times change and in 2000 the Delta pilots were trying to one-up the UAL contract. In 2002 there were DAL pilots on the street while ASA was hiring and some of us at ASA were trying to get the DAL furloughs back in a cockpit flying DL code in some form or another while simultaneously trying to secure some outsourced flying and a number at the bottom of the Delta list for the ASA pilots. The timing couldn't have been more right, IMO, as the Delta pilots were no longer sitting on top of the world.

How were you going to get DAL management to go for it 2002? Were you just going to ask them?

Management doesn't want these type agreements....

 

[Plug]

As I recall the lawsuit asked for a renegotiation of CY2000 scope with Delta, ASA and Comair's Reps at the table. I'm pretty sure of that.

But, I actually got kicked out of the RJDC because I did not wish to participate in the litigation.

Totally understand fins, but a judge could come to the conclusion that while ruling in favor of the ASA and CMR pilots that such a ruling could lead to further lawsuits by other carriers as a precedent would have been set.

Why didn't you want to participate in the litigation?

 

[Plug]

How were you going to get DAL management to go for it 2002? Were you just going to ask them?

Management doesn't want these type agreements....

By extending an olive branch to the Delta pilots then maybe something could have been done, but the Delta would have to ask.

Since management doesn't like these agreements what makes you think they would like having reps from ASA and CMR at the negotiating table for the Delta pilot contract negotiations?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Why didn't you want to participate in the litigation?

A whole bunch of reasons, but some are self evident. For one, just like you I applied via normal channels and got a great job. Secondly, Haber and I did not agree on a good many things. It was my opinion the strategy was flawed and that Haber would put his interests ahead of his Clients'.

John Malone seemed to get along with JC and Bob. The ASA & Comair MEC's were not a threat at all and I'm convinced the Delta MEC wanted to outsource this flying as a strategy to protect as much as they could of Contract 2000. I think it was a sale, plain and simple.

JC was a bogeyman and played the role unwittingly. The result was more political support for the Delta MEC when they needed support. Win/win - JMHO - could be wrong and probably am.

Totally understand fins, but a judge could come to the conclusion that while ruling in favor of the ASA and CMR pilots that such a ruling could lead to further lawsuits by other carriers as a precedent would have been set.

I'm not sure what you mean, but if it meant that pilots within the brand were compelled to work together on scope, I think that might would be a good thing. The airlines that have been growing are non-ALPA. The airlines that have been shrinking are mainline & ALPA. I'd like to see that trend reversed.

 

[JoeMerchant]

By extending an olive branch to the Delta pilots then maybe something could have been done, but the Delta would have to ask.

Since management doesn't like these agreements what makes you think they would like having reps from ASA and CMR at the negotiating table for the Delta pilot contract negotiations?

You have to use leverage...The same leverage you use to get more money and better workrules.....you don't do it when you are furloughing and losing money....

In 2000 things were relatively good and both DAL and CMR were in the "endgame".....In 2002 things were terrible....All you could have done was say "pretty please"....Want'a take a guess what managment would have said?

What incentive did DAL management have in 2002 to increase training costs and unify the 3 groups?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Well ... all 3 groups were in bargaining at the same time.....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Amazing we are still arguing this case after a decade.

Shows you how this example of alter ego outsourcing really defined a decade of flying, maybe even a generation of pilots.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well ... all 3 groups were in bargaining at the same time.....

In 2000 DAL and CMR were....not in 2002 when Plug's group circulated it's petition....DAL was furloughing and ASA was just ramping up negotiations.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Amazing we are still arguing this case after a decade.

Shows you how this example of alter ego outsourcing really defined a decade of flying, maybe even a generation of pilots.

It's been almost 14 years since Dan made his first crossbid proposal at the first of many ALPA scope committees...This is why I am sceptical....

 

[Plug]

A whole bunch of reasons, but some are self evident. For one, just like you I applied via normal channels and got a job I like a lot. Secondly, Haber and I did not agree on a good many things. It was my opinion the strategy was flawed and that Haber would put his interests ahead of his Clients'.

John Malone seemed to get along with JC and Bob. The ASA & Comair MEC's were not a threat at all and I'm convinced the Delta MEC wanted to outsource this flying as a strategy to protect as much as they could of Contract 2000. I think it was a sale, plain and simple.

JC was a bogeyman and played the role unwittingly. The result was more political support for the Delta MEC when they needed support. Win/win - JMHO - could be wrong and probably am.

And this was my biggest problem with RJDC. I got hired at ASA not to stay and fly RJ's but to get my time and get out, as most pilots did. The RJDC was appealed to the career regional pilots who neither cared to suit up and interview or simply couldn't and there is nothing wrong with that. Captains at ASA make good money but the flying is more "here today gone tomorrow." You bailed for the reason I thought you bailed, for an interview at DAL. I don't blame you but your admission is telling.

JC, Bob, John et al I think had a lot of politics amongst them but I think JC was a rogue who got carried away with his leadership. After the strike he walked around like he was a "king pin" when he really wasn't. He thought he'd flex a little muscle at the big Delta pilots and tell them that the CMR MEC would not help those furloughed from mainline secure jobs without resigning their Delta number. Bob told Skip when asked that he didn't care who ASA hired and if they resigned their number.

 

[JoeMerchant]

And this was my biggest problem with RJDC. I got hired at ASA not stay and fly RJ's but to get my time and get out, as most pilots did. The RJDC was appealed to the career regional pilots who neither cared to suit up and interview or simply couldn't and there is nothing wrong with that. Captains at ASA make good money but the flying is more "here today gone tomorrow."

....and mainline flying isn't these days? How long have you been at CAL and how far are you off the bottom now?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Plug,

Well, I'm sympathetic to these senior regional guys in as much as their longevity should not be destroyed by crossing an arbitrary line.

I'm not saying they should get seniority for their longevity, but companies should not thrive on destroying longevity and using that lowered cost structure to beat up on other airlines.

 

[Plug]

You have to use leverage...The same leverage you use to get more money and better workrules.....you don't do it when you are furloughing and losing money....

In 2000 things were relatively good and both DAL and CMR were in the "endgame".....In 2002 things were terrible....All you could have done was say "pretty please"....Want'a take a guess what managment would have said?

What incentive did DAL management have in 2002 to increase training costs and unify the 3 groups?

What more leverage do you than scope? Our goal was to convince the Delta MEC that should scope relief occur to tie the language directly to ASA and in turn we would allow their furloughed pilots to fill the vacancies. We all know that DAL wanted scope relief.

 

[hmmurdock]

Just look at the loads on TravelNet. The Shuttle was losing money every day. It sucks, but at least they are doing something about it. Take the planes and relocate them on routes built for the MD-88.

The Boston portion will be the next to go. I wonder if they will keep the NYC 88 crew base open? Who knows. I am sorry for the people who commute out of DCA. No more overnights at home.

Greetings. On the last AE I was diplaced to NYC on the 88. I wonder what this will mean for me. I live in CVG and would just as soon stay there, plus I wouldnt have to commute. Anyways, I guess time will tell.

 

[JoeMerchant]

What more leverage do you than scope? Our goal was to convince the Delta MEC that should scope relief occur to tie the language directly to ASA and in turn we would allow their furloughed pilots to fill the vacancies. We all know that DAL wanted scope relief.

That should have been done in 2000 when times were good and 2 of the 3 carriers were in the end game....In 2002 all you could do was ask....Still not sure what leverage you were planning on using....

DAL got the scope relief they were looking for during the concessionary bargaining....along with big paycuts and pension termination.....The DAL pilots sure as heck aren't going to do anything that benefits ASA and CMR pilots when they are losing half their pay and their pensions....

 

[Plug]

....and mainline flying isn't these days? How long have you been at CAL and how far are you off the bottom now?

You are correct but I have language in my contract that directly controls CO flying and every airplane out there with a "meatball" on the tail is allowed for in my contract. They start transferring assets like they did with ASA and Skywest they would be in huge violation of our contract that has it spelled out in black and white. Believe it or not we have some of the best scope in the industry. But I see what you are getting and I agree nothing is safe but I'll take my scope languge and hold it up against ASA's any day of the week and twice on Sunday

After the 147 furloughed I am 700 from the bottom and sit at about 68% on the 757/767 in EWR. I'll have a Guiness for you in Dublin on Thursday.

 

[Plug]

That should have been done in 2000 when times were good and 2 of the 3 carriers were in the end game....In 2002 all you could do was ask....Still not sure what leverage you were planning on using....

DAL got the scope relief they were looking for during the concessionary bargaining....along with big paycuts and pension termination.....The DAL pilots sure as heck aren't going to do anything that benefits ASA and CMR pilots when they are losing half their pay and their pensions....

It could have been sought after in 2000 just as easy as it could have been sought after in 2002. You never know what could have happened because it was never sought.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You are correct but I have language in my contract that directly controls CO flying and every airplane out there with a "meatball" on the tail is allowed for in my contract.

...as does UAL, AAA, AMR, and DAL....doesn't equate to job security....

After the 147 furloughed I am 700 from the bottom and sit at about 68% on the 757/767 in EWR. I'll have a Guiness for you in Dublin on Thursday.

I still wouldn't trade places with you....I'm glad your happy....How long have you been at CAL now?