• NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.
  • Logbook Pro for Apple iOS version 8.1 is now available on the App Store. Major update including signature endorsements and dark/light theme support. Click here to install now.

Delta RFP on 10-20 widebodies maybe coming in next 2-3 years--article

waveflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Posts
10,005
Total Time
12000
General,

I am looking at that.

You need to study your history-

Every legacy had similar mainline growth and rj #'s restrictions stipulated in their alpa/APA contracts. And the camel's nose was in the tent.

This mgmt play book has been used before....

Can you just admit that DALPA pilots don't want to do the RJ flying?
I don't think your group wants to do ANY domestic flying that's not 75 transcons-

Hence all the widebody gloating and threads like this glorifying the double aisled

Am I wrong
 
Last edited:

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
General,

I am looking at that.

You need to study your history-

Every legacy had similar mainline growth and rj #'s restrictions stipulated in their alpa/APA contracts. And the camel's nose was in the tent.

This mgmt play book has been used before....

Can you just admit that DALPA pilots don't want to do the RJ flying?
I don't think your group wants to do ANY domestic flying that's not 75 transcons-

Hence all the widebody gloating and threads like this glorifying the double aisled

Am I wrong


I don't think people "don't want to fly RJs at mainline", rather it would be too expensive to bring them all over. Not all of them are owned by DL, so you'd have to figure out how to integrate those. (Republic owns a bunch of the E175s, on long term contracts done during BK). When you negotiate, there is usually a certain amount of money available. Then, not all pilot "groups" (capts, FOs, etc) have the same wants and needs. Mainline pilots are all different ages, some with kids in college who are focused on paying for that. So, not everyone has that want to give up extra pay available in the negotiation.

But, mainline will be gaining a lot of "100 seaters" via your 717s, at great rates. I think the mainline pilots are very happy about that, and that will increase the domestic flying tremendously. So, your double aisle only theory is incorrect. Were the 717s expensive? Heck no, your airline is paying $143 million for DL to fly them. That is great! This airline has so much variety, those widebodies you mentioned, and all the way down to 717s flying to Chatanooga someday. That is yet another reason why DL is great.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 

waveflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Posts
10,005
Total Time
12000
Whatever you need to tell yourself general.
Sellout
 

Scoot 11

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 12, 2011
Posts
567
Total Time
12,000
Apparently, one gets a more bitter perspective when they're the one's who have been furloughed and seen their job replaced by one of these things- when the choice becomes: fly an RJ or get out of flying
Well then tough guy, you should have gotten out of flying, and taught the world a lesson! Bottom line, your a sellout! You bought and paid for your job because of your inability to interview well! You criticize outsourcing and take an outsourced job! You're nothing more than a 2 faced chicken ******************** who hides behind an anonymous keyboard!
You jump on anything DALPA because of something lacking in your pathetic career. Stop posting on DL threads, and you'll stop being attacked you coward! Until then, you're nothing but a child, who works for a group who sold out the industry with low pay/wages/benefits/retirement, and a pay for training job! The good news, is your groups arrogance is finally catching up with them. No more 5 year upgrades. Lines made lower than they've been in 5 years. Air Tran pilots who didn't have to buy their job. I actually understand your bitterness, only you should be looking in the mirror, sellout!
Get back to your hole, TROLL!
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
Whatever you need to tell yourself general.
Sellout


You get nasty because I have plausible answers that quell your assertions. It's sad Wave, and I have been fairly civil towards you. You might need to lay off the sauce a bit, and seek help.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

waveflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Posts
10,005
Total Time
12000
No general, you haven't. You have a lot of excuses, but in the end you, and dalpa as a collective did what they always do- sign off on outsourcing. -

What's sad is you actually think "mainline pilots are too expensive" is a valid reason to outsource so much of your domestic flying

Wondering at what size plane that logic will ever stop?
 

dalad

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Posts
209
Total Time
10000+
No general, you haven't. You have a lot of excuses, but in the end you, and dalpa as a collective did what they always do- sign off on outsourcing. -

What's sad is you actually think "mainline pilots are too expensive" is a valid reason to outsource so much of your domestic flying

Wondering at what size plane that logic will ever stop?

But you come on here and post outright lies. The first 90 seat jet was at AWA, not DAL. The majority of mainline flying is done by DAL pilots not the other way around. We have 144 domestic 757's, over 150 MD-88/90's, and 120+ A-320/319's. 88 717's on the way to replace RJ flying as well. You just have personal issues with DAL, and thus have to bash at every opportunity. I have met many SWA pilots and they have all been a pleasure to talk to. I hold no animosity towards SWAPA even though they are the original camel's nose under the tent that led to the downward spiral of this industry. It was SWAPA pilots who agreed to work for low wages in the first place and only in the last 10 years have you gone to the top of the payscale, a position that you are going to lose. GK is no Herb and he's going to eat your lunch, Why? Because your airline has already started the outsourcing with the ramp, but the pilots are the biggest ripest fruit for him to pick. I'll tell you what. Let's see how great your job is 5 years from now. BTW, why do you ask others where they worked before when you won't post the name of the Legacy that furloughed you or the Regional that you sold yourself out to? Also, which airline was the first to introduce the Bae-146? It was flown by Air Wisconsin.
 
Last edited:

Monster Buck

Go bigger or die trying!
Joined
May 9, 2004
Posts
766
Total Time
10K+
Whatever you need to tell yourself general.
Sellout


So he's a sellout because he got hired there? With that philosophy since you tried to get hired there and got turned down that would make you a "wannabe sellout failure"?

just saying ;)
 

jonjuan

Honey Ryder
Joined
Feb 26, 2004
Posts
4,155
Total Time
3,000+
So he's a sellout because he got hired there? With that philosophy since you tried to get hired there and got turned down that would make you a "wannabe sellout failure"?

just saying ;)

That's a headshot if i've ever seen one. If swa wasn't hiring after 'ol Waveys 3rd furlough and dal was, he'd be the first one in line at the dal booth at womens in aviation.
 

Scoot 11

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 12, 2011
Posts
567
Total Time
12,000
That's a headshot if i've ever seen one. If swa wasn't hiring after 'ol Waveys 3rd furlough and dal was, he'd be the first one in line at the dal booth at womens in aviation.
He was, he just couldn't make the cut, hence the buying his job at swa!
 

waveflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Posts
10,005
Total Time
12000
But you come on here and post outright lies. The first 90 seat jet was at AWA, not DAL. The majority of mainline flying is done by DAL pilots not the other way around. We have 144 domestic 757's, over 150 MD-88/90's, and 120+ A-320/319's. 88 717's on the way to replace RJ flying as well. You just have personal issues with DAL, and thus have to bash at every opportunity. I have met many SWA pilots and they have all been a pleasure to talk to. I hold no animosity towards SWAPA even though they are the original camel's nose under the tent that led to the downward spiral of this industry. It was SWAPA pilots who agreed to work for low wages in the first place and only in the last 10 years have you gone to the top of the payscale, a position that you are going to lose. GK is no Herb and he's going to eat your lunch, Why? Because your airline has already started the outsourcing with the ramp, but the pilots are the biggest ripest fruit for him to pick. I'll tell you what. Let's see how great your job is 5 years from now. BTW, why do you ask others where they worked before when you won't post the name of the Legacy that furloughed you or the Regional that you sold yourself out to? Also, which airline was the first to introduce the Bae-146? It was flown by Air Wisconsin.

Ok dalad, you old fart.
Lets first start with the anonymous part. I like the anonymity of FI, lets us all speak freely and without pulling punches, which I actually like. Even when scoot goes off the rails- entertaining at the very least, and there's NO doubt in my mind what scoot thinks of my overinflated opinions on the subject. Thas good, no?
I have no illusions that some 8 year old who has the first clue how the interweb works, could figure out who I am- but I think it's better and learned my lesson on trying to figure people out here a long time ago- I just asked if GL worked at Comair because I thought he had and its a good example of the seniority scam that outsourcing represents- regional pilots will never have real leverage to be paid proportionately to what we get paid at mainline. And it's the starting over that's the biggest part of the plan-
No, I never applied to delta- the timing was all wrong for that when I was coming up, and in all honesty- crazy mode critiques aside- I view delta as the best mainline legacy job out there- from the outside looking in- it is NOT a good fit for me- but an excellent place. What I can't stand is how many pilots work in Delia's system that are disenfranchised, no vote, on multiple separate seniority lists. I hate how accepted this practice has become.
Lets see here, what's next- southwest.
Alright, this is where defining the term "sellout" is important. I use this term because regional pilots get NO VOTE. No vote on their future, on who gets what flying, on what type of a/c they fly. The only pilots who get a vote on that are mainline pilots. You make decisions that affect OTHER pilots. You won't have to fly in the whipsaw, no leverage, artificially low wages that "regional" pilots do. It's the shame of our industry. Seriously. By definition, I CANNOT sell myself out. Voting to reload the whipsaw market with bigger new RJs that you'll never fly, is much different than an adult weighing the pros and cons and agreeing to fly for a company at any wage. It's called FREE CAPITALISM. SWA's early wages may have undercut you in the 80's and 90's. so? That's life in a free capitalistic world. You've been undercutting us for the last 10 years- see us b/tching?
We know you've been doing your best- what I hope to impress is how much your own outsourcing has dragged down your own wages. First, RJ's are an expensive damn airplane. They would be if they were flown for free. And your airplanes subsidize it. That's problem number 1. Second, all the airlines this decade that have creeped up and companies use to keep our wages low, SWA before 2002, JetBlue and their emb rates, virgin now- they have a pool of well qualified jet pilots for whom those low wages represent a real step up- do you see the downward pressure that creates on your own wages?
RJ pilots are often willing to fly for less than they normally would, because they need to get out of the regionals- any smart ones know they can never make it a career- ie: Comair, air Wisconsin, Mesa twice now, you got to get out.
But me weighing SWA out and making an adult decision for myself- sorry buddy- that's just an adult capitalistic decision- if you don't like that- go lobby the government for a national seniority list, and maybe start your own socialist party.
Time will tell what GK does. But the rampers and ops agents agree- at least the ones that are picketing.
In the end, you yelling about SWA, when I don't bring SWA up, just makes your argument look weak and irrational. We're talking about outsourcing. I'd love to compare swa's record on that. But it's not the point. It's like you're just plugging your ears and yelling bc you don't like the truth if what I'm saying.

As for air wisconsin's 146's.
Others will know more, but AW didn't start out as a codesharing regional- they were a stand alone Wisconsin based airline- not just a united express- they had those airplanes before- and united pilots were able to limit those aircraft until they went away.

America west was the first to get -900's. in bankruptcy.
Then usair, with their jets for jobs emb's.
and then you- again in BK.

General says it all the time. bK sucks. What can you do,

My critique is that this solidifies those bankruptcy screw jobs and sets precedent. You are the FIRST pilot group to allow -900's outside of bankruptcy.

Cut the legs out from AA just as they were getting screwed in their bk. APA didn't have a leg to stand on once you voted that in. And no airline has nearly that amount of -900's.

Sorry, there was no integrity in that vote IMO. You sold out for a short term raise- and the airlines with pin your airline will always marginalized what we do and work to stagnate our wages and contracts.
 

dalad

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Posts
209
Total Time
10000+
Okay Wave, here goes. This whole downward spiral starts with the RLA, and then continues with the Airline Deregulation Act which allowed LCC's to exist in the first place. A Regional job is only a starting point just like military training is. It shouldn't be a career. I'm willing to bet that over 90% of the civilian background pilots that I fly with came from a regional. Next, we didn't do anything to any other pilot group, especially AMR, the birthplace of the B-Scale. 90 seat aircraft have been flying for Regionals for many years now. The company came out and said they don't need as many 76 airplanes as they thought. We actually eliminated a majority of the 50 seaters and feel confident that there will be no more give backs on scope.
Sell out is your own opinion and definition, I have a different one than you. It goes beyond allowing additional 76 seat aircraft on the property. It is the big picture, lets see were we all are 10 years from now.
 

waveflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Posts
10,005
Total Time
12000
Time will tell- and we can let this thread die, but please make sure you recognize how different regionals are today than they were 10 years ago. Most regional oilots know its not a career and want to move on. The more flying that's handed to them = less mainline jobs to get to. Making their regional stint much longer bc of votes you cast.
I do hope that dalpa is addressing this behind the scenes better than my current evaluation. You guys are the leaders in this industry. There's no doubt.
 
Last edited:

JAM-BRO

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 4, 2005
Posts
378
Total Time
15000+
So I take it you are a North guy?

We're you in the room for the backstabbing or is this just part of an agenda? Run for office or quit pulling drivebys with your sneaky crap opinions.

Oh Billy, Billy...
Typical ALPA rethoric... Shoot down the messenger when you don't like the message. You have been indoctrinated well. Do u still think our 2012 contract was adequate? Do you still believe, as well as all the other DALPA fanboys, that there was not a single penny left on the table? Wake up Billy!
 

BILL LUMBERG

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Posts
2,074
Total Time
9 to 5
Go pound sand ya DPA tool....I voted no.

You clowns as an alternative is the scarier option.
 

JAM-BRO

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 4, 2005
Posts
378
Total Time
15000+
Who said anything about DPA? Rest my case... Billy the DALPA Messenger Boy!!! Buhuhuhaaaa
 

B727FA

Bring your own FOD bucket
Joined
Mar 28, 2006
Posts
635
Total Time
Enough
Also, which airline was the first to introduce the Bae-146? It was flown by Air Wisconsin.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but it was actually AirCal and then PSA who flew it first.
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
Not to put too fine a point on it, but it was actually AirCal and then PSA who flew it first.

Actually, it was Dan Air (an English airline) who first flew it in May, 1983. PSA was the first US carrier to fly it in July, 1984.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

waveflyer

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 9, 2005
Posts
10,005
Total Time
12000
Psa flew it themself
And so did air Wisconsin before aw was a united express and scope still kinda worked

This latest deal is a reloading of the whipsaw market
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
Psa flew it themself
And so did air Wisconsin before aw was a united express and scope still kinda worked

This latest deal is a reloading of the whipsaw market

PSA had 24 BAe 146-200s, and they sat 85 pax, which would be too many at UAL or DL today via scope clauses. But, DL is getting 88 717s that will carry about 105 passengers I believe, and that will be done at mainline. BRAVO!!! Mainline is recapturing old markets, and SWA is paying $130 million to facilitate that, too. FANTASTIC.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Top