Delta Pilots don't check for frost on wings

[ACL65PILOT]

Best you can do on a 767 is look at the wing from the jet bridge or the windows.

 

[volav8r1]

I read your post multiple times and it seems to me to be nothing more than an angry rant that makes very little sence.

You know some of the post on here does make sense but your's just sound like it coming from guy who's wife is holding out on him. Uhhhh.....OK.

First your comment about more and more passengers these days are... I think the poster said that it was a passenger who passed the message of frost on the wing to the FA. Like a true professional the pilot came out to assessed it himself, and using prudent judgement elected to delay the departure (Clean wing policy). My question to you would be: How long have you flown for the airlines? I have been with NWA and now DAL for a long time. I have noticed over the past 8 or 10 years more and more pax are starting to bitch about things they know absolutely nothing about. Example: Flying into TPA last summer we went almost 100 miles out of the way to give the pax a smoother ride thru a serious line of weather. When we landed business traveler came up to the cockpit and said "You guys deliberatly flew thru a thunderstorm and I am going to the FAA". It is this type of passenger I am talking about. Not sure what your problem is with that if you are an airline pilot. I would just like to know how a pax could have picked out frost on the top of a shiny wing at night. The point of my post was that his stunk of BS.

Secondly, you were not present so be quiet.
Wow, so your saying I'm not entitled to defending my company, on a public forum, against an obvious flamebait post titled "Delta Pilots don't check for frost on wings"? Sounds to me like you don't have a dog in this fight so why don't you butt out?

Third, I have never known of a customer booking a connection. That's taken care of by the airline themselves. Please explain to me how the airlines work. This is my first day on the job. Are you familiar with Orbitz, Travelocity, Hotels.com, etc... All of them will allow tight connections. Not only that they will allow 30 min connections with an airline change. Also, apparently you have never booked a ticket with a 30 min connection. All the agent has to do is advise you it's less than the recommended connection time. Besides, time is money and it's only us pilots who like to sit around airports twiddling our thumbs. Fine, but don't come b_itching to me when you miss your flight because you planned a ridiculous itenerary.


Ok, we don't have to sympathize with them when all most really ever think about is a cheap fare and then get out to the plane expecting whatever.

Look, it sums up everything that is wrong with the system. The mentality that the climate will VFR, 59 degrees C and 29.92 inches of mercury, 365 days of the year so no need to provide the basic of equipment to efficiently conduct your business. A system that measures it's performance on the time it pushes pack from the gate. A system that has to subsidizes it's sale of cheap seats by cutting of most of its fingers. I read this 5 times and I honestly don't know what the He11 your trying to say here.

The question is had the passenger not told the FA about the frost on the wing would it have been a successful takeoff? We'll never know the answer to that but what we do no is that it doesn't take very long for the smallest issue to disrupt our daily patterns. A proper prefight requires visually checking the wing, and using ones understanding of existing limitations such as low light or visibility challenges, along with the knowledge of current atmospheric conditions it would be prudent to uses alternative methods like viewing through the cabin window or heck request a ladder. Fact is it needs to be checked as clean, and viewing limitations doesn't excuse it. Thank you for the informative tutorial on the clean wing policy and inspection techniques. Judging by your Screen name I would assume you either work for United or at least express. So let me ask you this: do you know where to find the ladders at ORD to do your Upper Wing inspections? I have been to ORD a lot and I've never seen a pilot on a ladder. Maybe I'm just there at the wrong times. Why don't you explain to me the NWA/DAL policy? Because I was under the impression that if ceretain conditions or parameters exist we have a QUALIFIED person come out to do an AUTHORIZED check of our wings to see if we need to get sprayed. So according to your logic if you can't see the top of the wing from the ground then just go to the cabin and look out? I'm pretty sure thats not an approved technique, at least on the DC-9. Come to think of it that wasn't approved on the 747 either.

You're exactly right, the wings do need to be checked as clean. Are you implying the crew didn't follow proper Delta Airlines proceedure? You told me I wasn't there so I should "just be quiet", well buddy, it sounds to me like between you and I, I'm the only one here who is actually qualified to comment on Delta's specific procedures. Sounds to me like your just looking for a reason to be an argumentative punk. Now if you'll excuse me I need to go find a ladder.

So you should be a bit forgiving to the poster.

So the poster has been outed as a pathological liar and a troll but I should be forgiving of him spewing Bu11SH1t about something he knows nothing about? Really?

 

[pipejockey]

You can't ignore or disregard a public comment like that, it has to be addressed by the crew and dealt with at that moment. If not, it opens the airline up to speculation and liability. The crew did the right thing. Hopefully the frost did form after the wing inspection and I'm sure that is getting looked into as well.

I would tell the FA to tell this a**clown that a tactile check had been done and is within limits. Passengers need to sit down and shut up and follow direction. Some folks just have to be in charge of everything! Even if they have no clue what they are talking about but they still think they do.

You mean if a pax notices frost or ice on the wing that would be illegal to depart with, you would just ignore it because it was noticed by a pax?

A passenger wouldn't know what is illegal or not.

 

[skyslug]

I would tell the FA to tell this a**clown that a tactile check had been done and is within limits. Passengers need to sit down and shut up and follow direction. Some folks just have to be in charge of everything! Even if they have no clue what they are talking about but they still think they do.

"A passenger wouldn't know what is illegal or not.

"


...yeah, that passenger could have been a commuting crewmember or a pilot going somewhere on vacation or a FED, FAM or military aviator, charter pilot... You'd also be surprised at how well versed some frequent fliers are when it comes to stuff like this. Take it seriously and check it out. Delta did the right thing.

 

[UALRATT]

I read your post multiple times and it seems to me to be nothing more than an angry rant that makes very little sence.


So the poster has been outed as a pathological liar and a troll but I should be forgiving of him spewing Bu11SH1t about something he knows nothing about? Really?

Did you find the ladder?? I figured I would pop a CB but fug I didn't think I was capable of popping all except the red one. Lets see:

"How long have you flown for the airlines?"
Been for a while now but I can never stop learning...

"I have been with NWA and now DAL for a long time."
Ok,then use your experience to wisely discuss the posters question.

"we went almost 100 miles out of the way to give the pax a smoother ride thru a serious line of weather."
To give them a smooth ride or to avoid the serious line of weather? I'm certain that the smooth ride thing is not the basis of DAL or NWA policy. BTW I knew why your Captain really went around the thunderstorms?

I know the kind of passengers you are referring to but a professional pilot will not lower his character to match that of the passenger?

"Please explain to me how the airlines work."
Oh the managers wake in the morning scratch their heads and go right back to sleep smiling because they are making a killing.

"Defending my company...",
Well he sounds like he was simply asking a question. Not making an observation. Since you're the Delta guy to talk to then simply answer the question. SO now what's wrong with the SWA guys defending their company?

"Are you familiar with Orbitz, Travelocity, Hotels.com, etc..."
How do you know the the flight were not book at dal.com?

"All the agent has to do is advise you it's less than the recommended connection time."
Maybe the agent didn't think about that.

"do you know where to find the ladders at ORD to do your Upper Wing inspections?"
NO but for starters in ORD you touch base with operations and the ground deicing coordinator.

"Because I was under the impression that if certain conditions or parameters exist we have a QUALIFIED person come out to do an AUTHORIZED check of our wings to see if we need to get sprayed."
Ahhhh! That's in my manual too!

"So according to your logic if you can't see the top of the wing from the ground then just go to the cabin and look out? I'm pretty sure thats not an approved technique, at least on the DC-9. Come to think of it that wasn't approved on the 747 either."
Approved vantage point for viewing the wing. View the wing...
Boeing 747-400: ...from any of the first 4 windows aft of door 2L/2R.
Airbus A320: ...thru the second window forward of the overwing emergency exit and the sixth window aft of the overwing emergency exit
Airbus 319: ...thru the third window forward of the overwing emergency exit and the sixth window aft of the overwing emergency exit
Boeing 767/757 ...from the cabin windows offering the best vintage point
Boeing 777 ...from the first window aft of door 2L/2R
Now PM me if you want to know what to look for out the window.

"I would just like to know how a pax could have picked out frost on the top of a shiny wing at night. The point of my post was that his stunk of BS."
Good question! If the boss had to delay the flight then I believe he saw what the passenger saw. Now I don't think that is logical to you.

"between you and I, I'm the only one here who is actually qualified to comment on Delta's specific procedures."
That the problem. I don't think you really know DAL procedures well enough to make a comment on it because you haven't? You're just ranting...

"Are you implying the crew didn't follow proper Delta Airlines proceedure?"
No implication what so ever. I wasn't there. The poor guy was asking a question. I guess who feels it knows it.

Why waste your time trying to judge my screen name when all you can do is ask but you won't because you are the argumentative one with all that red going on.

 

[Daveman]

UALRATT, nice vibe!

 

[pipejockey]

"


...yeah, that passenger could have been a commuting crewmember or a pilot going somewhere on vacation or a FED, FAM or military aviator, charter pilot... You'd also be surprised at how well versed some frequent fliers are when it comes to stuff like this. Take it seriously and check it out. Delta did the right thing.

Bottom line is that there was not a d*mn thing wrong with that aircraft. Years ago we had guys taking off in snowstorms, after sitting on the ground over an hour after having been de and anti-iced without even turning on the friggin engine anti-ice system and they crash killing a bunch of people. Or others taking off with snow covering the whole wing and crash and kill a bunch of people.

So what do we have to do these days? We are getting aircraft who's performance wouldn't be affected at all, de and anti-iced for a few snowflakes falling out the air even when it's so cold the flakes are blowing off the wing like dandelion seeds. How many times have we shown up after a cold and windy night after having dry snow fall, and the whole plane is clear except a few shovels full of snow that accumulated at the wingroot and fuse fairing due to wind currents around the jet bridge and building, and we have to waste money and time de-icing over that BS. Fully knowing that isn't going to effect the performance of the aircraft in any way whatsoever. And by the time you taxi over to the deice pad, that few shovels full of snow is now about one shovel full, hanging on for dear life on the last foot or so of flap. And since most places don't let you do wings and tail, the whole friggin airplane which is as clean as a whistle, except for 1 square foot of flap area has to be deiced. Now that makes a lot of sense doesn't it? A clear example of taking safety to the extremes.

Yet the regionals will not only continue to hire 300 hour pilots, they will lobby congress to keep the 1500/500 proposal for new hires from coming to fruition. This industry never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Linedriver]

I would tell the FA to tell this a**clown that a tactile check had been done and is within limits. Passengers need to sit down and shut up and follow direction. Some folks just have to be in charge of everything! Even if they have no clue what they are talking about but they still think they do.







A passenger wouldn't know what is illegal or not.

You're right and I was wrong - what was I thinking? They're just stupid passengers, they know nothing and I should just disregard all their concerns as being worthless.

Yep, that's how I'm gonna role from now on!

 

[IBNAV8R]

"A passenger wouldn't know what is illegal or not."

Maybe, maybe not. But a call to the local FSDO from an all-knowing PPL, would create more headache for a pilot than his third divorce.

Common sense, good judgment and experience are no longer part of the equation. Which is why airlines feel they shouldn't have to PAY for these qualities. It's longer about what is SAFE. It's about covering your a$$.

I'm sure this captain saw the frost, made his decision (knowing full well the airplane would have flown with no problem) and went back up to the cockpit to stew over his coffee and rant to his F/O about how f#$@ed up aviation has become.

That's what I would have done.

 

[Mike man]

UALRATT (you and yuppyguppy need to take a chill pill) are we really having a pissing match about who can check ice from where...I think bottom line this comes down to a personal preference of the PIC and IAW company policy and aircraft limitations.

Honestly my opinion is, if a PAX says ice/frost/whatever is on the wing...I am going to sit on the ground until the ice/frost/whatever is melted, because it is a ton easier to explain a 30 minute delay while taxiing out to wait for some frost to melt than to answer to the FAA and Chief Pilot two weeks later when the one passenger wrote a letter to the FAA and the airline about you departing with frost on the wing.

I actually had a situation in BDL where we were cleared into position and hold while a king air took off from the crossing runway, once he was through the intersection we were cleared for takeoff, immediately after our takeoff clearance the king air declared an emergency and they were coming back to the field, tower canceled our clearance and asked us to vacate the runway, which we did...the engines were spooled up but we didn't need to hit the brakes to clear the runway. King air returned, landed and we took off...two weeks later I get a call from the Chief Pilot asking about a runway incursion in BDL and was wondering why I almost took off without clearance...turns out a private pilot wrote a letter to the FAA and the company (actually to Delta it was a DAL Connection flight) and said we took the runway without clearance and almost took off without clearance...luckily it was a matter of the company calling BDL tower and they got the tapes which proved otherwise, but nevertheless not a fun situation to be in.

 

[FO 4 Life]

So, how about if a pax asks since you were late if you were at the bar?

:bomb:

 

[Mike man]

So, how about if a pax asks since you were late if you were at the bar?

:bomb:

That is the easiest question ever posted on FI...and if you don't know the answer, you do not fly 121.

 

[skyslug]

Bottom line is that there was not a d*mn thing wrong with that aircraft. Years ago we had guys taking off in snowstorms, after sitting on the ground over an hour after having been de and anti-iced without even turning on the friggin engine anti-ice system and they crash killing a bunch of people. Or others taking off with snow covering the whole wing and crash and kill a bunch of people.

So what do we have to do these days? We are getting aircraft who's performance wouldn't be affected at all, de and anti-iced for a few snowflakes falling out the air even when it's so cold the flakes are blowing off the wing like dandelion seeds. How many times have we shown up after a cold and windy night after having dry snow fall, and the whole plane is clear except a few shovels full of snow that accumulated at the wingroot and fuse fairing due to wind currents around the jet bridge and building, and we have to waste money and time de-icing over that BS. Fully knowing that isn't going to effect the performance of the aircraft in any way whatsoever. And by the time you taxi over to the deice pad, that few shovels full of snow is now about one shovel full, hanging on for dear life on the last foot or so of flap. And since most places don't let you do wings and tail, the whole friggin airplane which is as clean as a whistle, except for 1 square foot of flap area has to be deiced. Now that makes a lot of sense doesn't it? A clear example of taking safety to the extremes.

Yet the regionals will not only continue to hire 300 hour pilots, they will lobby congress to keep the 1500/500 proposal for new hires from coming to fruition. This industry never ceases to amaze me.

Well I have no idea what your reply has to do with my comment. I will say that you nor I weren't there and to state that there "was not a da*m thing wrong with that aircraft" is flat out conjecture on your part (and if you were in that aircraft staring out that window then I stand corrected). I merely stated and factually so that Delta did the right thing and checked it out. I'm going to assume their FOM states no taking flight with frost ON TOP of the wings.

 

[clippyrip]

Just for future reference, HOT WATER works great when by 0630 the temp was well abouve freezing.

Now that is funny.

You were flying on a major airline, not JimBobs Flying Service. Do you really think the pilot can walk out to the wing and splash it with some hot water? The FAA would go bat $hit you ding dong.

You were provided a seat and got to partake in the miracle of flight. Sorry that safety inconvenienced you.

 

[GuppyWN]

You were provided a seat and got to partake in the miracle of flight. Sorry that safety inconvenienced you.

And THAT is the quote of the week!

Nicely done,
Gup

 

[UALRATT]

UALRATT (you and yuppyguppy need to take a chill pill) are we really having a pissing match about who can check ice from where...I think bottom line this comes down to a personal preference of the PIC and IAW company policy and aircraft limitations.

Honestly my opinion is, if a PAX says ice/frost/whatever is on the wing...I am going to sit on the ground until the ice/frost/whatever is melted, because it is a ton easier to explain a 30 minute delay while taxiing out to wait for some frost to melt than to answer to the FAA and Chief Pilot two weeks later when the one passenger wrote a letter to the FAA and the airline about you departing with frost on the wing.

I actually had a situation in BDL where we were cleared into position and hold while a king air took off from the crossing runway, once he was through the intersection we were cleared for takeoff, immediately after our takeoff clearance the king air declared an emergency and they were coming back to the field, tower canceled our clearance and asked us to vacate the runway, which we did...the engines were spooled up but we didn't need to hit the brakes to clear the runway. King air returned, landed and we took off...two weeks later I get a call from the Chief Pilot asking about a runway incursion in BDL and was wondering why I almost took off without clearance...turns out a private pilot wrote a letter to the FAA and the company (actually to Delta it was a DAL Connection flight) and said we took the runway without clearance and almost took off without clearance...luckily it was a matter of the company calling BDL tower and they got the tapes which proved otherwise, but nevertheless not a fun situation to be in.

Thanks Mike but I did take one before I posted cause I really had to...

 

[waveflyer]

Is this still a thread? i won't be catching up to it- but i remember the 1st post. It really ... really was not worth 6 pages... i hope it was hijacked

 

[FO 4 Life]

Is this still a thread? i won't be catching up to it- but i remember the 1st post. It really ... really was not worth 6 pages... i hope it was hijacked

Didn't work...everyone still beating the same horse.

How bout them Cubbies?

 

[ex-nutjeter]

Now that is funny.

You were flying on a major airline, not JimBobs Flying Service. Do you really think the pilot can walk out to the wing and splash it with some hot water? The FAA would go bat $hit you ding dong.

You were provided a seat and got to partake in the miracle of flight. Sorry that safety inconvenienced you.

Before you call someone a ding dong do some research, the FAA does approve the use of Hot Water for de-icing, I have their manual, if you are interested, I can e-mail you a copy, its 122 pages long and clearly states that the FAA approves the use of Hot Water as a de-icing method, the point taken here is that DAL does not allow the use of Hot Water to remove frost, that is now understood.

I also doubt that in their SOP's it says that the use of the Sun is a legal option to de-ice, the FAA would go bat $hit over that one you ding bat, my point is why not go out and look for yourself rather than relying on some passenger's view, I think that is what the poster was trying to say, it seems that the crew did not take that intiative, if they did, maybe it was nothing out there, and they could have left on time

 

[FO 4 Life]

I also doubt that in their SOP's it says that the use of the Sun is a legal option to de-ice, the FAA would go bat $hit over that one you ding bat, my point is why not go out and look for yourself rather than relying on some passenger's view, I think that is what the poster was trying to say, it seems that the crew did not take that intiative, if they did, maybe it was nothing out there, and they could have left on time

I believe that is/was the procedure for SWA in LAS prior to the snow that spanked them. And it is approved by the FAA, btw.

 

[rtmcfi]

Before you call someone a ding dong do some research

I also doubt that in their SOP's it says that the use of the Sun is a legal option to de-ice,

Hey ding dong-
I picked up an airplane yesterday that had been at the maintainance ramp all day. There had been a hard frost overnight. Every plane that went out that morning was deiced. My plane went out in the afternoon. The sun was what deiced my plane. Should I file an asap so the faa does not go bat $hit on me?

 

[SFR]

Nor do we do 1:15 turns or connections.

Get in, get off, get out.

Spend your time with your family or business, not at the dang airport.

Next,
Gup

Oh, you forgot to mention that you kick FAT people off!!!! HA

 

[Midnight Flyer]

Geeze, 6 pages on what some passenger "saw".
I'm glad I fly cargo!

Boxes don't bitch

 

[lineflyer1]

Let me enlighten ya'll,

The wing skin on transport aircraft is so thick that if you spray hot water on it, the temprature of the skin will not rise above freezing and the water refreezes pretty darn fast even if the OAT is above freezing.

Thats why water is diluted with glycol/anti freeze to prevent it from refreezing even if the outside air temp is above freezing, the skin freezes it.

It might work on a Piper or Cessna but not on transport aircraft.

Jeez

 

[waveflyer]

I think there are a lot of pilot's who need to:
1) get their collective noses in their FOM's - your posts are not exactly creating a warm fuzzy about how you're doing the job-
then 2)- have some balls and be a g^dd^mned captain- you know the professional expert who would be knowledgable and competent enough to not worry if a private pilot might write a letter. I've had no more, or less, letters written in than anyone else- but the last thing I'm worried about is explaining myself to a chief or a fed bc I work hard enough to know my job.
We should NOT be returning to the gate ONLY to placate a pax or anyone else. Know your job and do the right thing.

In this case- no one knows anything other than the original poster is a f^cking idiot.

 

[IBNAV8R]

Just to be sure of what some of you are saying.

A passenger (or anyone else) points out a condition that causes him/her concern. The FOM provides definitive guidance for this condition. I should:

1) have the balls to ignore this and depart anyway without further investigation. If the CREW didn't see it, it doesn't count.

2) investigate, see the frost, and have the balls to depart anyway (just to prove that I'm not placating some dumb-ass passenger with a PPL)

3) have the balls to use whatever procedure I think might do the trick.

4) try to get an interview with Mesa after I get my revoked certificates back.

 

[100/hour/5y]

5. Taxi into the sun, set parking brake and read my USA today while the so called frost melts.... "It was within approved spec to takeoff..."
6. Thank the guy getting off the airplane after 2hrs of overs and wish him good luck standing by for the next flight because most flights are running full!

 

[becket]

Hot Water? My azz would be off that plane in 2 seconds if I saw them try that on frost.

 

[waveflyer]

IBNAV8R- don't take that from my post. Do the right thing is pretty clear. My post was in response to posters who fully admit they fly and make decisions to protect against the perception of the ignorant. I have no desire to get into this particular example bc the original post was so bad.
Still believe it's not worth this many comments. Apologies for adding to it. But you're right - I'm not espousing a huge ego in this gig- but rather more competent use of judgement over simply being scared of making a call. And there are plenty who seem to be scared of their own shadow.
If the shoe fits...

 

[crj567]

Wow, note the time and date, I actually agree with Gup!
The origional poster is a doosh bag!
Oh yeah, Gup, all those things I said about you before.......I wish I could start all over and repeat them all!:laugh::laugh:

Yep-

A total "doosh bag." One who likely saw a whole planeload of people saved by an "irate passenger." NO ONE takes off in a swept wing jet with ANY frost on the wing.

WE are lucky this didn't turn ugly.

-While everyone is playing around with "is hot water legal or not," we are all missing the big picture... It really doesn't matter if you are sitting on the freaking equator-if you gots frost, you best not fly! Aviation doesn't need one more bit of bad press right now.