• NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.
  • Logbook Pro for Apple iOS version 8.1 is now available on the App Store. Major update including signature endorsements and dark/light theme support. Click here to install now.

Delta parking 10 75s. 717 delivery "fluid"

KarmaPolice

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Posts
279
Total Time
4500
10 757s just announced to be gone by next summer, displaced FOs filling vacancies in 717, 737, M88. (Lower paying)

Delta is still overstaffed as it is under flying its contractual share of joint venture routes. No plan in sight to rectify.

Logic says this is not good for hiring in the fall as 717 delivery schedule is now being called "very fluid."

Contract 2012 continues to disappoint those who prioritize keeping pilots in high paying jobs at mainline.

We gave them:

70 more 76 seaters,
ALV +15 for reserves,
reduced profit sharing,
sick leave verification

in exchange for
50 seaters going away (were they anyway?)
A raise that barely keeps pace with inflation,
A fleet of 88 717s without pay protection for displaced crew members,
Generous Block hour ratios for DCI,


DALPA sold us this TA by playing on pilot fears of long negotiations, and hopes for fast upgrades to new positions and elimination of 50 seaters.

I don't think a union can do the impossible, but I would appreciate honest, straightforward insight from them on what a TA is probably going to do to us. The sell job was low and it suckered in a lot of guys who were on the fence. There are tons of guys who could care less about the state of our profession for the next generation, and just want there's. but the guys on the fence bought that this was a great deal, when it is turning out to not be at all.


All thoughts appreciated...
 

scoreboardII

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Posts
2,694
Total Time
xxxxxx
My thought? We ********************ed up, we trusted them.

Please define fluid 717's? As in, our version is none exist here post Jan 2015 unless they have a SWA label on them, and that costs the company huge dollars.
 

KarmaPolice

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Posts
279
Total Time
4500
The release didn't say. I'm sure they're still taking delivery on schedule, but how they bring them into service depends on how well things all go. I do hope they all come online as advertised.

Staffing it (remains to be seen exactly how much) with displaced FOs (from a higher paying category) instead of new hires and upgrades for Capt is counter to what we were told during the road shows. The carrot was that hiring and upgrades into the 717 offset The lackluster deal we were getting in other areas.
 

Skippy

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 14, 2002
Posts
561
Total Time
N/a
Welcome to the plane parking party hosted by yonited!
717's? Dont make me lol
 

Data

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 15, 2002
Posts
2,731
Total Time
6000+
General should be along soon to counter all this...
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
You better believe it Data. We knew all along that DL was parking some 757s, and now we know 10 will be gone by next June. (I thought more would actually be gone by then). Also, Delta will still be getting all of the 717s, with a month or two getting 3 instead of 4, etc. They all are due to go through 2 months each of heavy maintenance (SWA paying for it, thanks), and this was all known. The 757s were going to get parked (100 739ERs will replace a combo of 757s, A320s, and some 767-300 doms), and the 717 are all scheduled to come within 3 years, still. DL initial ckeckairmen on the 717 have already done flight training in one of them, and the first 717 is being painted now in MIA.

Plenty of frustration out there by some junior folk on recent bids that have had some displacements instead of all entitlements, that many were expecting to happen by now. That is understandable. At the same time, the 7ER categories, which have had some displacements on each of the last couple and now next bid, has been overstaffed, and only Summertime flying has been busy for the bottom guys in category. I'm sure when the eventual positive ONLY bids come, some will bid back, and it would be nice to throw newhires into the 717s initially, but many know that very junior 7ER FOs didn't fly a lot over FALL and Winter due to capacity cuts. That capacity has to come back in full or huge retirements have to start to get many back. That may be early next year when that and hiring might start. Right now, that category seems fat, and those extra pilots are needed for the MD90s coming in and 717s later this year. Hopefully hiring after that.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
Welcome to the plane parking party hosted by yonited!
717's? Dont make me lol

You have no idea what you are talking about. Regardless, Delta Connection's 70 new 76 seaters are tied directly to incoming 717s. The 50 seaters will still get parked, and 76 seaters won't come until the 717s. The first one is being painted now, and the initial check airmen have already passed their FAA checkout rides in the plane. When the scheduling guys stated it was "fluid", that means some months may get one less than expected, but the next may get 4 instead of 3. It's FLUID for TRAINING.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

Secret Squirrel

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 6, 2003
Posts
1,257
Total Time
some
My thought? We ********************ed up, we trusted them.

Please define fluid 717's? As in, our version is none exist here post Jan 2015 unless they have a SWA label on them, and that costs the company huge dollars.

Why would it cost huge dollars? SWAPA played right into.the.companies hand when they filed a grievance for a SWA sticker on an Airtran 737. Now the.company just has to put.a.sticker on those 717's and they are SWA airplanes. A one day indoc and BAM, a bunch of.SWAPA pilots are flying SWA airplanes!
 

Just thinking

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 6, 2005
Posts
348
Total Time
>1<10K
"has to put.a.sticker on those 717's and they are SWA airplanes. A one day indoc and BAM, a bunch of.SWAPA pilots are flying SWA airplanes!................."


Never going to happen..... promises from gk to SWAPA were for every captain seat to be RSW pilots.............. imagine the tủmoil and consternation if that were to come to fruition......
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
10 757s just announced to be gone by next summer, displaced FOs filling vacancies in 717, 737, M88. (Lower paying)

Delta is still overstaffed as it is under flying its contractual share of joint venture routes. No plan in sight to rectify.

Logic says this is not good for hiring in the fall as 717 delivery schedule is now being called "very fluid."

Contract 2012 continues to disappoint those who prioritize keeping pilots in high paying jobs at mainline.

We gave them:

70 more 76 seaters,
ALV +15 for reserves,
reduced profit sharing,
sick leave verification

in exchange for
50 seaters going away (were they anyway?)
A raise that barely keeps pace with inflation,
A fleet of 88 717s without pay protection for displaced crew members,
Generous Block hour ratios for DCI,


DALPA sold us this TA by playing on pilot fears of long negotiations, and hopes for fast upgrades to new positions and elimination of 50 seaters.

I don't think a union can do the impossible, but I would appreciate honest, straightforward insight from them on what a TA is probably going to do to us. The sell job was low and it suckered in a lot of guys who were on the fence. There are tons of guys who could care less about the state of our profession for the next generation, and just want there's. but the guys on the fence bought that this was a great deal, when it is turning out to not be at all.


All thoughts appreciated...


There is no doubt MANY are frustrated. Especially the junior guys flying large equipment. Many will be bumped down to planes they probably should have held anyway, and the parking of 10 757s by next June (fewer than I expected), will have a downward push for the junior guys in category. I am looking forward to those mystery 10-12 A330 orders that supposedly will take place, and there is an RFP out for an order like that, but even if it happens, those planes might not arrive until 2015 supposedly. In the mean time, more mainline planes will come (717s still on schedule overall---16, 36, 36 over next 3 years), plus 100 739ERs (those replacing 757s, 320s, and Dom 763s one for one), and 14 MD90s. That means either hiring or downgrading some junior 7ER pilots into those smaller plane categories. So far, it's the latter, but eventually hiring will happen, and maybe those 330s will come and people will move UP.... That, with retirements, will be good for everyone.

DCI still loses 50 seaters, and no new 76 seaters unless 717s come, and they are on the way. The AF/KL JV does need work, but that lookback occurs next May, it's always been that date. You can't do anything until you come to that date. And the VA JV is only for NYC to LHR flying---that is the reason for it. LHR has slots that are very expensive and hard to get. AA and BA have something like 11 or 12 daily combined flights between those two cities, and DL had 3. Now, with VA, the combo has 9, which for corporate contracts is better than 3 total. If you wanna compete in NYC, you need to compete on that LHR route. DL did just buy one pair from Alitalia(who needed the cash), and supposedly that pair may go to a SEA-LHR pairing. Hopefully JV negotiations for VA will have tighter restrictions compared to the AF/KL JV. Hopefully Dalpa has learned something there....


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Last edited:

redflyer65

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2004
Posts
4,456
Total Time
8000
Why would it cost huge dollars? SWAPA played right into.the.companies hand when they filed a grievance for a SWA sticker on an Airtran 737. Now the.company just has to put.a.sticker on those 717's and they are SWA airplanes. A one day indoc and BAM, a bunch of.SWAPA pilots are flying SWA airplanes!

Whatever remaining 717s that haven't been converted on Jan. 2015 are going to be parked.

No sticker and no additional training. It's gone.
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
Remember, 757s were going to be parked, and initially I had heard 14 by next June. Parking 10 is actually better. The 739ERs are going to replace maybe 60 total older 757s with high cycles, and also some A320s and a few older domestic 763s. That's been known for awhile now. The "fluid" part for the 717s was the initial training bid. Originally it was for 145 FOs, but there were only 107 on the first bid. That may be due to lack of sims, inflight training now scheduled for September for the initial bunch, and maybe one or two 717s might be bumped from one month to the next, hence FLUID. They all are still coming to the fleet, and any new 76 seaters are tied to the 717s ARRIVING.

It does suck for the junior guys on big equipment getting bumped. Not fun. But, when categories are fat due to capacity cutbacks during slower periods (Fall and Winter), everyone knows something will happen to fix that. Eventually the displaced will have a chance at rebidding their previous plane, and when things do start to move due to eventual retirements, this will only be a bad memory hopefully. It happens. It even happens to senior guys, just ask the AT guys....


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

scoreboardII

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Posts
2,694
Total Time
xxxxxx
Why would it cost huge dollars? SWAPA played right into.the.companies hand when they filed a grievance for a SWA sticker on an Airtran 737. Now the.company just has to put.a.sticker on those 717's and they are SWA airplanes. A one day indoc and BAM, a bunch of.SWAPA pilots are flying SWA airplanes!
It will cost more than stickers, the grievance was for a SWA sticker on an AT jet, that violated our codeshare agreement. The 717 jets will all need to be in full SWA livery or they violate the codeshare agreement post 2015. There can be no AT remaining post 2015, so they can't just sticker them and call it good. Like redflyer said, they will park them rather than spend money.
 

i fly boxes

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 12, 2006
Posts
848
Total Time
4200
They are just delaying hiring because they are getting ready to staple the endeavor pilots
 

KarmaPolice

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Posts
279
Total Time
4500
GL, honestly you're not thinking both that we got less than we should've out of this TA and our union hasnt worked as diligently as it should've to protect mainline jobs?? The 717 was sold as all growth. The 757 losses were supposed to go to the 737 900, md 90, and crj 900.

We're being shorted at least NINE daily trips to Europe, every day, as AF/KLM are flying our Pax! THAT is a major reason why we are fat on ER copilots. The company is outsourcing their jobs overseas. A union's primary mission should be to stop that at all costs.

Because it doesn't affect you at your seniority, it's acceptable? The union's snow job doesn't matter as much?

I get that a union can't keep a corporation from parking planes and outsourcing our jobs. But it ought to try and stop it, and if it can't, give us real information on what to expect from the company.

You know we were led to believe if we signed the TA, hiring was coming very soon to staff the 717, and now it looks like at least half the 717 seats initially will be displaced mainline pilots and not guys off the street. Hiring is unlikely now this year, and if we do hire it will be a lot later, and a much smaller number than TA yes voters would've expected based on info from the union.
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
717's are like herpes.

Herpes pays $195 per hour in the left seat? (2015 rates when all arrive at 12th year pay). Well, oh-Kay......


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

Dash Power

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2006
Posts
348
Total Time
18000+
Remember, 757s were going to be parked, and initially I had heard 14 by next June. Parking 10 is actually better.

Parking fleet types are like furloughs. Once they start you never know when its going to stop. I guess its way more than 14. Maybe all of them. The real question is how many RJ's are going to replace them.

Worse contract move in the history of the business. Outsourcing is a cancer that can not be stopped.
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
GL, honestly you're not thinking both that we got less than we should've out of this TA and our union hasnt worked as diligently as it should've to protect mainline jobs?? The 717 was sold as all growth. The 757 losses were supposed to go to the 737 900, md 90, and crj 900.

We're being shorted at least NINE daily trips to Europe, every day, as AF/KLM are flying our Pax! THAT is a major reason why we are fat on ER copilots. The company is outsourcing their jobs overseas. A union's primary mission should be to stop that at all costs.

Because it doesn't affect you at your seniority, it's acceptable? The union's snow job doesn't matter as much?

I get that a union can't keep a corporation from parking planes and outsourcing our jobs. But it ought to try and stop it, and if it can't, give us real information on what to expect from the company.

You know we were led to believe if we signed the TA, hiring was coming very soon to staff the 717, and now it looks like at least half the 717 seats initially will be displaced mainline pilots and not guys off the street. Hiring is unlikely now this year, and if we do hire it will be a lot later, and a much smaller number than TA yes voters would've expected based on info from the union.

First of all, I never said I was happy or pleased with what has transpired. I think Dalpa was overly optimistic with what COULD happen with the contract. I understand what has happened, DL will get rid of over 200 50 seaters, even if oil goes down someday to $30 a barrel and 50 seaters could make money again. The 717s may or may not have come, but it is good they are. They will recapture plenty of routes that were given away to DCI over the last decade. I don't understand what you mean by 757 losses would go to 739, MD90, and CR9? The 757 losses will be covered one for one by 739s. Yes, they pay less, but some A320s will also be replaced by 739s, and they pay more.

Yes, I agree that we are short about 9 A330 flights a day with the AF/KL JV. That is frustrating. I think that does vary a bit by the time of the year, during the Summer DL adds BOS, PIT, PHL, to the mix, and permeantly added SEA and EWR to CDG daily. AF recently added an A340 to MSP for the Summer, and a few day per week 777 to MCO. Overall, DL is behind. But, according to the contract, the time to review it all is next May. That is the deal. Could DL add 15 flights a day to AMS and CDG by Xmas? Maybe, but probably not. Still, you have to go by the agreement. If they are not in compliance by next May, then they have to fix it within one year. I'd rather fix it now, but "a contract is a contract....."

I've heard DL is already behind the ball when it comes to hiring, and it may actually happen before the end of the year. 225 FAs will be hired, so I would think it might happen shortly there after. Remember more returning Military pilots came back than expected, and that may have had something to do with it. Was the union expecting that many returning military guys? Maybe not. We all want more people behind us, and fewer in front of us. Eventually both will happen simultaneously. That really will be fantastic.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
Parking fleet types are like furloughs. Once they start you never know when its going to stop. I guess its way more than 14. Maybe all of them. The real question is how many RJ's are going to replace them.

Worse contract move in the history of the business. Outsourcing is a cancer that can not be stopped.

No, DL knows exactly how many 757s will leave. Most of the 757s without winglets will leave (they didn't invest in winglets, obviously). I just stated I had heard initially that 14 would leave within the first year (June to June), and now it is supposedly 10. That's good.

Dash, you are making no sense. Most of the 757s, 320s, and domestic 763s that are leaving are because they are OLD, and have high cycles. Just like your 733 and 735s, they will leave your fleet sooner than later. The leaving 757s, A320s, and Dom 763s are being replaced ONE FOR ONE with new 739ERs. Then, add 14 MD90s and 88 717s. When you talk about outsourcing, less outsourcing is a result of the contract. Over 140 total RJs will be gone after everything is done. 140 fewer RJs. Say that aloud. Alaska code share was also tightened, and the percentage of domestic flying for mainline vs DCI also was increased in DL pilots favor. You are wrong. Were there some things that could have been better? Sure. But outsourcing to DCI got worse for DCI, by a lot.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Top