Delta parking 10 75s. 717 delivery "fluid"

[K-Mart]

717's are like herpes.

 

[General Lee]

717's are like herpes.

Herpes pays $195 per hour in the left seat? (2015 rates when all arrive at 12th year pay). Well, oh-Kay......


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Dash Power]

Remember, 757s were going to be parked, and initially I had heard 14 by next June. Parking 10 is actually better.

Parking fleet types are like furloughs. Once they start you never know when its going to stop. I guess its way more than 14. Maybe all of them. The real question is how many RJ's are going to replace them.

Worse contract move in the history of the business. Outsourcing is a cancer that can not be stopped.

 

[General Lee]

GL, honestly you're not thinking both that we got less than we should've out of this TA and our union hasnt worked as diligently as it should've to protect mainline jobs?? The 717 was sold as all growth. The 757 losses were supposed to go to the 737 900, md 90, and crj 900.

We're being shorted at least NINE daily trips to Europe, every day, as AF/KLM are flying our Pax! THAT is a major reason why we are fat on ER copilots. The company is outsourcing their jobs overseas. A union's primary mission should be to stop that at all costs.

Because it doesn't affect you at your seniority, it's acceptable? The union's snow job doesn't matter as much?

I get that a union can't keep a corporation from parking planes and outsourcing our jobs. But it ought to try and stop it, and if it can't, give us real information on what to expect from the company.

You know we were led to believe if we signed the TA, hiring was coming very soon to staff the 717, and now it looks like at least half the 717 seats initially will be displaced mainline pilots and not guys off the street. Hiring is unlikely now this year, and if we do hire it will be a lot later, and a much smaller number than TA yes voters would've expected based on info from the union.

First of all, I never said I was happy or pleased with what has transpired. I think Dalpa was overly optimistic with what COULD happen with the contract. I understand what has happened, DL will get rid of over 200 50 seaters, even if oil goes down someday to $30 a barrel and 50 seaters could make money again. The 717s may or may not have come, but it is good they are. They will recapture plenty of routes that were given away to DCI over the last decade. I don't understand what you mean by 757 losses would go to 739, MD90, and CR9? The 757 losses will be covered one for one by 739s. Yes, they pay less, but some A320s will also be replaced by 739s, and they pay more.

Yes, I agree that we are short about 9 A330 flights a day with the AF/KL JV. That is frustrating. I think that does vary a bit by the time of the year, during the Summer DL adds BOS, PIT, PHL, to the mix, and permeantly added SEA and EWR to CDG daily. AF recently added an A340 to MSP for the Summer, and a few day per week 777 to MCO. Overall, DL is behind. But, according to the contract, the time to review it all is next May. That is the deal. Could DL add 15 flights a day to AMS and CDG by Xmas? Maybe, but probably not. Still, you have to go by the agreement. If they are not in compliance by next May, then they have to fix it within one year. I'd rather fix it now, but "a contract is a contract....."

I've heard DL is already behind the ball when it comes to hiring, and it may actually happen before the end of the year. 225 FAs will be hired, so I would think it might happen shortly there after. Remember more returning Military pilots came back than expected, and that may have had something to do with it. Was the union expecting that many returning military guys? Maybe not. We all want more people behind us, and fewer in front of us. Eventually both will happen simultaneously. That really will be fantastic.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Parking fleet types are like furloughs. Once they start you never know when its going to stop. I guess its way more than 14. Maybe all of them. The real question is how many RJ's are going to replace them.

Worse contract move in the history of the business. Outsourcing is a cancer that can not be stopped.

No, DL knows exactly how many 757s will leave. Most of the 757s without winglets will leave (they didn't invest in winglets, obviously). I just stated I had heard initially that 14 would leave within the first year (June to June), and now it is supposedly 10. That's good.

Dash, you are making no sense. Most of the 757s, 320s, and domestic 763s that are leaving are because they are OLD, and have high cycles. Just like your 733 and 735s, they will leave your fleet sooner than later. The leaving 757s, A320s, and Dom 763s are being replaced ONE FOR ONE with new 739ERs. Then, add 14 MD90s and 88 717s. When you talk about outsourcing, less outsourcing is a result of the contract. Over 140 total RJs will be gone after everything is done. 140 fewer RJs. Say that aloud. Alaska code share was also tightened, and the percentage of domestic flying for mainline vs DCI also was increased in DL pilots favor. You are wrong. Were there some things that could have been better? Sure. But outsourcing to DCI got worse for DCI, by a lot.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Dash Power]

No, DL knows exactly how many 757s will leave. Most of the 757s without winglets will leave (they didn't invest in winglets, obviously). I just stated I had heard initially that 14 would leave within the first year (June to June), and now it is supposedly 10. That's good.

Dash, you are making no sense. Most of the 757s, 320s, and domestic 763s that are leaving are because they are OLD, and have high cycles. Just like your 733 and 735s, they will leave your fleet sooner than later. The leaving 757s, A320s, and Dom 763s are being replaced ONE FOR ONE with new 739ERs. Then, add 14 MD90s and 88 717s. When you talk about outsourcing, less outsourcing is a result of the contract. Over 140 total RJs will be gone after everything is done. 140 fewer RJs. Say that aloud. Alaska code share was also tightened, and the percentage of domestic flying for mainline vs DCI also was increased in DL pilots favor. You are wrong. Were there some things that could have been better? Sure. But outsourcing to DCI got worse for DCI, by a lot.



Bye Bye---General Lee

No. You will see.

You just voted in a total restructure of fleet utilization. Next year Delta will have maybe two thirds of the 75 fleet. The year after that, less. Overall less total airframes.

And we all thought the 1997 AA contract was bad with outsourcing. You guys screwed the pooch for everyone. Ask a Continental pilot about scope and the Delta contract. Thank you for getting up to our salary levels but shame on you for outsourcing pilot jobs.

The good news is that Delta is now an oil refining company with an airline subsidiary.

Good luck to us all.

 

[JohnQ]

What about "757s are getting old and are leaving" don't you understand? The bottom line is that many of our oldest 757s from both premerger NW and DL, were built in the early 1980s. They are coming up on hugely costly heavy maintenance checks and are already nearing the end of their aircraft lifecycle--just like GL said also applies to your older 733s and 735s. After all, do you still fly 737-200s? Was it a "SWAPA sales job" when your company parked them, or was it the natural order of things in this industry?

Also, Boeing stated in 2004 that they would stop building the 757. Many of us wish that decision had never been made, but DAL is not the aircraft manufacturer, so we have to replace the 757s with 739s or perhaps A321s.

I actually remember reading 15 years ago on our internal DALPA forum a guy whining that DAL buying 737-800s "was concessionary" because it replaced three-man 727s with two-man 737s, and how DALPA had "sold out again."

Are you kidding me? There are plenty of reasons to fault DALPA over the years, but that was not one of them.

 

[redflyer65]

You do know we are outfitting some of the 'old 300's' with new interiors right? And mostly those that already have winglets installed. These planes have been paid off 15 years ago, so they actually make SW quite a bit of cash.

Similar to NW flying the DC-9s around for so long. For the most part, they were paid off.

Sorry for the thread creep....back to Delta losing planes and outsourcing more.

 

[JohnQ]

Hey you are probably right. We are also retaining some of our newer (relatively speaking) 757s for years to come; most will be fitted with lie-flat seats to fly JFK-LAX transcons and the like.

All good things eventually come to an end. The 757 really is a great plane.

SWA is a great airline and DAL is too. I have no desire to join in on any airline bash fest. I think there is plenty of $$ to be made by both companies, and therefore lots of $$ to be disbursed to the pilots of both places as well.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

It will cost more than stickers, the grievance was for a SWA sticker on an AT jet, that violated our codeshare agreement. The 717 jets will all need to be in full SWA livery or they violate the codeshare agreement post 2015. There can be no AT remaining post 2015, so they can't just sticker them and call it good. Like redflyer said, they will park them rather than spend money.

Every article I can find about it says that the grievance was that the sticker made it an SWA aircraft and those aircraft must be flown by SWAPA pilots.

As far as the statement that SWAPA was GUARANTEED all AT captain positions, I will have to take your word on that because we never saw any of those super secret side agreements. That is what the DRC claim is all about.

The problem I see is this. If there are 30 some planes parked in 2015 that will cost the company around $5-10 million a month in just lease payments and such not to mention pilots sitting on their buts making guarantee. I think the company has already made a secret handshake with the arbitrator to come up with an agreement to solve all this. But that is just my jaded view of the whole arbitration process.

We will see. It won't affect me much either way unless there are furloughs but parking all those 717's would cost a LOT of money. Money SW is going to wave in your face during contract negotiations. Rumors I have been hearing is that SW is already starting to admit that there will be a lot of 717's on property at 2015.

 

[humveedriver]

You do know we are outfitting some of the 'old 300's' with new interiors right? And mostly those that already have winglets installed. These planes have been paid off 15 years ago, so they actually make SW quite a bit of cash.

Similar to NW flying the DC-9s around for so long. For the most part, they were paid off.

Sorry for the thread creep....back to Delta losing planes and outsourcing more.

It's one of those looks good on paper decisions. The 300 now holds 143 warm bodies, and I do mean warm. The overhead space doesn't allow for roller bags to go in wheels first, and now there are potentially 6 more bags to fit. Ground air mostly ineffective, APU authorized full time on the ground. I just hate seeing customer service being sacrificed at a company that leads the way in customer service. No wifi on the classics either. They are paid for and keeping us employed as the 717 leaves.

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

Whatever remaining 717s that haven't been converted on Jan. 2015 are going to be parked.

No sticker and no additional training. It's gone.

Will GK park 30 (27 actually because 3 will be in transition Jan. 1 2015 if everything goes on schedule) airplanes? We shall see, interesting times for sure.

 

[flyboyike]

That means either hiring or downgrading...So far, it's the latter, but eventually hiring will happen, and maybe those 330s will come and people will move UP.... That, with retirements, will be good for everyone.

I believe, General, this is the first time I've actually seen you be less than absolutely certain and positive on the subject of massive future hiring. Guess it's starting to sink in.

 

[EL10]

So let me get this straight the in sourcing of the 100 seat aircraft was a bad thing now? It is also a bad thing that the company is working on a fleet renewal plan?

I can not believe it when I hear complaints about the short legs and multi leg days, yet then complain about the RJs. Everyone wants scope but no one wants to do the work.

As GL stated the JV look back happens down the road. To say DL should have more segments today is not correct. You are taking a snapshot and not the metric that will used come May.

 

[Noserider76]

What about "757s are getting old and are leaving" don't you understand? The bottom line is that many of our oldest 757s from both premerger NW and DL, were built in the early 1980s. They are coming up on hugely costly heavy maintenance checks and are already nearing the end of their aircraft lifecycle--just like GL said also applies to your older 733s and 735s. After all, do you still fly 737-200s? Was it a "SWAPA sales job" when your company parked them, or was it the natural order of things in this industry?

Also, Boeing stated in 2004 that they would stop building the 757. Many of us wish that decision had never been made, but DAL is not the aircraft manufacturer, so we have to replace the 757s with 739s or perhaps A321s.

I actually remember reading 15 years ago on our internal DALPA forum a guy whining that DAL buying 737-800s "was concessionary" because it replaced three-man 727s with two-man 737s, and how DALPA had "sold out again."

Are you kidding me? There are plenty of reasons to fault DALPA over the years, but that was not one of them.

Good post. The 757 is still the sweetest and prettiest machine out there but some are getting old. Can't believe Boeing made the decision to stop production during the worst downturn in US aviation history. Maybe if some airline wasn't so set on the retro version of the 737 it would be different. That overhead panel rolling off the line in 2013? You've got to be kidding.

Pilots don't make fleet decisions. In any case the -900s are much cheaper to operate, hold about the same as the 57s, come with the latest personal entertainment systems, and pay about the same. The 717s replace the -9s and we got SWA to pay the freight. Basically you're taking back some of the flying the RJs had been doing. The -90s were a super bargain and run the same engines as the 320s.

Overall the domestic fleet will be using smaller aircraft. However with the new -90s, 717s, -900s the number of airplanes on property will be higher which will be better for us (pay wise) in the long run. Guess we'll know for sure when we start seeing entitlements instead of displacements.