Delta/NWA Seniority List Negotiation Tidbits

[DAL737FO]

Why do you continue to post stuff like that? You have no real idea what this would mean for a Newb at DAL or NWA. Its all speculation right now. While it may not be ideal it certainly could be worse. IMHO fly safe

Let's see a new hire at DAL that goes directly to the right seat of the 767 intl now has to compete with new hires at NWA that were going directly to the right seat of the DC9 or possible the A320.

No I don't see how that could hurt them at all.

 

[nwaredtail]

Some of it sounds appealing, but we all know that contract improvements are temporary until gas hits $130 BBL or another attack, then right back to where we are now! I remember getting a 10.5% raise and then giving it back within 3 years and then some.

How about a fair seniority list merger then?DALPA's idea of fair was to have every DAL pilot move up considerably over the last few years (good for you!) and then move up a bunch when NWA guys retire. (BTW only 5 pilots have stayed past 60 out of over 30 that could have) NWA pilot's would get no credit over the next 10 years even though 70% of the pilots retiring would be NWA pilots? I know it evens out over the next 10-20, but who wants to be stagnant for 10 years?

If your pension was threatened, you would lose about the same number of guys we did.
But, it wasn't, so they didn't. That's a moot point. You have no idea how many guys would retire? NWA never had a lump sum option.

We also parked a bunch of planes as our guys were leaving (737-200s/300s, 767-200s, MD11s), which didn't really help us much. You would have to take that into account. Don't you think the NC and merger committee's know this?

Your Greenbook Merger Committee leader has to come off his DOH stance, or it will be no deal. That's a rumor, don't be so naive. We have a committee that works together, Laz doesn't have the power you state, believe me.

We'll see if any of this pans out. I would rather have NO merger than a bad one. You probably won't have a choice!

The fact of the matter is that NWA is the absolute best choice for a merger with DAL, CAL or even AMR with our current business model and we know it. More cash, less debt, better margins by a ton, 787 options, Fortress hubs, pension debt moot, etc. Anderson knows it, Steenland knows it. NWALPA knows it. Some DAL pilots are acting like we should be falling over ourselves to be saved "by DAL". After DALPA's seniority integration model made it's way through the ranks last week, the people who were "excited" about the contract improvements quickly calmed down when they realized that almost every NWA pilot would be a lot worse off on the seniority list. Will it be a better airline after a merger? Nobody knows, but it will take a long time to reap the benefits for the line employees

 

[Diesel-9]

That pretty much sums it up. Newbridge Agreement expires in about 8 weeks. Do you recall what it says?

 

[DAL737FO]

How about a fair seniority list merger then?DALPA's idea of fair was to have every DAL pilot move up considerably over the last few years (good for you!) and then move up a bunch when NWA guys retire. (BTW only 5 pilots have stayed past 60 out of over 30 that could have) NWA pilot's would get no credit over the next 10 years even though 70% of the pilots retiring would be NWA pilots? I know it evens out over the next 10-20, but who wants to be stagnant for 10 years?

After DALPA's seniority integration model made it's way through the ranks last week,

So let me get this straight,you only want to count the retirements for the next 10 years and not out farther than that? Why would that be? Because it fits your agenda. And what would be the seniority integration that was making the rounds? We finally heard what it was from our LEC reps this week and to tell you the truth I don't know how you couldn't consider it a windfall.

The integration that we were giving was a relative seniority where if you are at say 16% off the bottom now (my actual seniority) then you would be 16% off the bottom of the new airline.

I looked at your latest bids and someone with my relative seniority 16% off the bottom can hold block holder on the A320 or the DC9 and reserve on the 757. Compare that to here at Delta you would hold lineholder on the MD88, 767 Dom and International the 737-800 and Capt on the MD88 NYC. So without fences how again are you losing anything? This is a serious question. You already stated that the retirements even out eventually. I want someone to enlighten me, because from where I sit this is going to cause me to move backward.

 

[nwaredtail]

So let me get this straight,you only want to count the retirements for the next 10 years and not out farther than that? Why would that be? Because it fits your agenda. And what would be the seniority integration that was making the rounds? We finally heard what it was from our LEC reps this week and to tell you the truth I don't know how you couldn't consider it a windfall.

With your current model, NWA get no credit for the majority of the retirements over the next 10 years. Considering 70 plus% are NWA pilots, yeah, we would like to move up the 20-25% that we were expecting. Sorry if you can't comprehend that.


I looked at your latest bids and someone with my relative seniority 16% off the bottom can hold block holder on the A320 or the DC9 and reserve on the 757.

And in the next 5 years, that person would move up at least 20-25% at NWA, 0% at DAL except for some "announced" growth. WTF don't you get about that!

So without fences how again are you losing anything? This is a serious question. You already stated that the retirements even out eventually.

15 - 20 years is a lot of earning potential missed using DAL's model.

I want someone to enlighten me, because from where I sit this is going to cause me to move backward.

Yup, you are correct. If DAL wants NWA bad enough, you will move backwards at the combined carrier. That's part of being 16% from the bottom of any list.

Unless everyone is a bit unhappy, the pilot's won't agree without arbitration. Right now, DAL would not be unhappy.

Get Unhappy and we will talk.

 

[DAL737FO]

Just another reason why this won't work. Have fun.

 

[viper548]

This is like US Air/Am West all over again. Unlike that situation, both NWA and DAL will be just fine on their own

 

[EdTeachLives!]

So, it appears that there are talks occurring soon/now on this deal. Both pilots groups are obviously not seeing eye to eye presently.

Here is the problem. After all of the information released in the lounge shows, It appears that NWA is destined to reap huge contractual, pay, equip, base and qol gains if this deal proceeds as previously planned.

Also released in these shows was information that the combination of the two airlines has tremendous advantages (1 + 1 = 3). On the flip side, the stand alone plan is aggressive and will provide growth, just not at the immediate level or speed at which a merger would provide.

So here comes the point. This deal even in its proposed form might have a difficult time passing MEMRAT. The only incentive on the DALPA side is an equity stake and possibly more growth than standing alone. One does not know this though because of the dc9/747 ?'s of nwa's fleet.

So as it boils down and we come closer to our opener date in the next year, is it worth it to take a hit in seniority for an equity stake and a smaller raise while also agreeing to a 4 year term on this deal that locks us up until well into the next decade? Or, go with the stand alone plan and open the whole contract for restoration next year with present seniority intact?

If an agreement is reached than a significant hurdle has been overcome. The mountain on the horizon is MEMRAT and it becomes increasingly formidable as more and more information is released.

Ed

 

[PuffDriver]

With your current model, NWA get no credit for the majority of the retirements over the next 10 years. Considering 70 plus% are NWA pilots, yeah, we would like to move up the 20-25% that we were expecting. Sorry if you can't comprehend that.

Just simply not true. Everybody will get credit for the retirements as it would be one list. The tide lifts all boats the same. Your problem is that you want to start ahead of the game. Understandable. Who doesn't. Simply put, you don't get to benefit from Delta's early retirements AND keep your DB plan. We paid for the retirements via a plan, you paid with crappy pay and rules. That's where our "seniority" came from. Bought and paid for. We're square in that regard.

And in the next 5 years, that person would move up at least 20-25% at NWA, 0% at DAL except for some "announced" growth. WTF don't you get about that!

You do not know that. You are saying that YOUR version of the next five years will pan out and that OUR version will not. Doesn't work that way. Speculation is speculation.


15 - 20 years is a lot of earning potential missed using DAL's model.


You are assuming that you will even BE in business in 15-20 years. This merger creates a MUCH stronger carrier less affected by oil with greater pricing power. That is worth something. I would think again about your 15-20 years when you throw in less stability, your decreasing rasm, your a/c retirements and greater operation of compass, Delta's increasing RASM, increasing mainline, decreasing rjs, greater pay NOW, greater DC now, combined retirements, etc.


Yup, you are correct. If DAL wants NWA bad enough, you will move backwards at the combined carrier. That's part of being 16% from the bottom of any list.

I like the phrase, "if Delta wants NWA...." This is a mutual thing. It would essentially be a buyout. It would be a great force to be reckoned with. The NWA pilots have asked the Delta pilots back to the table. IMO something is about to be worked out.

Unless everyone is a bit unhappy, the pilot's won't agree without arbitration. Right now, DAL would not be unhappy.

Get Unhappy and we will talk.


There is plenty to be unhappy about. Everybody's career stifles a bit, unless NW tries to take credit for our non-a plan over their a plan AND wants the retirements on top of it. That isn't going to fly literally. Add to that, in the absence of a merger, Delta will be placing a large 777 order and going it alone. Looking objectively at the trend of our two airlines, you are more profitable and going towards less. We are less profitable and headed towards more. I would take our position of diversity over yours. Not by much, but by a little. Hence, no big deal either way.

Just to add one more thing, this deal could come back in short order without all of the bennies attached. So the NWA could get a stomp'in without all of the money thrown in. Think about whether or not that chance is worth it.

 

[Redmeat]

you are more profitable and going towards less. We are less profitable and headed towards more. I would take our position of diversity over yours. Not by much, but by a little. Hence, no big deal either way.

Delta's stand alone plan:

little/no profit + rapid expansion + high oil/recession

= Bankruptcy (again)

Classic cyclical airline bankruptcy model.

 

[PuffDriver]

Delta's stand alone plan:

little/no profit + rapid expansion + high oil/recession

= Bankruptcy (again)

Classic cyclical airline bankruptcy model.

Not a lot different from NWA stand alone plan then, is it? We'll see the 1st quarter here shortly, won't we. I expect to see at least 250,000,000 for NWA and (100,000,000) for Delta for your prediction to have any accuracy or bearing. IOW a difference of at least 350,000,000 in our profitability.

 

[DTW320]

Just simply not true. Everybody will get credit for the retirements as it would be one list. The tide lifts all boats the same. Your problem is that you want to start ahead of the game. Understandable. Who doesn't. Simply put, you don't get to benefit from Delta's early retirements AND keep your DB plan. We paid for the retirements via a plan, you paid with crappy pay and rules. That's where our "seniority" came from. Bought and paid for. We're square in that regard.

How do you account for the big % (not majority, but a big%) of NWA pilot's whose frozen DB plan is worth the same as many young DAL pilots PGBC amount? You're trying to paint the picture that NWA guys would get a double benefit from a better contract AND keeping a superior A plan with a big frozen benefit when that is not a true statement across the board. On a different note, in Jan/Feb 62% of NWA pilots who turned 60 retired not including several early retirements.

 

[nwaredtail]

. Simply put, you don't get to benefit from Delta's early retirements AND keep your DB plan.

Only about 40% of NWA pilots will receive a DB above PBGC limits



We're square in that regard.

Not even close.



You do not know that. You are saying that YOUR version of the next five years will pan out and that OUR version will not. Doesn't work that way. Speculation is speculation.


15 - 20 years is a lot of earning potential missed using DAL's model.


You are assuming that you will even BE in business in 15-20 years. This merger creates a MUCH stronger carrier less affected by oil with greater pricing power. That is worth something. I would think again about your 15-20 years when you throw in less stability, your decreasing rasm, your a/c retirements and greater operation of compass, Delta's increasing RASM, increasing mainline, decreasing rjs, greater pay NOW, greater DC now, combined retirements, etc.



Wow, is all I can say. I just never knew NWA was in so much trouble. Our A/c retirements have been planned. Compass, yup increasing. We held on to scope longer than DAL did. Have Comair, ASA, Skywest increased in size lately? Nice try, though. How did an airline 30% smaller than you make more money than any other legacy carrier last year? Save us, quick.



The NWA pilots have asked the Delta pilots back to the table. Coffee coming out my nose.

That isn't going to fly literally. Add to that, in the absence of a merger, Delta will be placing a large 777 order and going it alone. So your, "speculation is speculation" only applies to NWA. O.K., got it.


Looking objectively at the trend of our two airlines, you are more profitable and going towards less. We are less profitable and headed towards more.

Show me some numbers, Mr. Specualtion. Facts: we have more cash, better margins, less debt. FACTS, FACTS, FACTS!!!! .

Just to add one more thing, this deal could come back in short order without all of the bennies attached. So the NWA could get a stomp'in without all of the money thrown in. Think about whether or not that chance is worth it.[/QUOTE]


Not worth a little cash. PERIOD.

 

[Redmeat]

Not a lot different from NWA stand alone plan then, is it?

NW is SUPER Conservative airline (and will be even more so now after the bankruptcy), which ends up being (for us pilots anyway) good during bad times and bad during good times.

If management here even gets so much as a whiff of a bad moon on the horizon this place would go into a lock down mode that would make NORAD look like a grade school tornado drill.

In other words I think Delta's expansion plan is risky with the big question mark hanging over oil/the economy right now.

However with large cost savings/synergies created with a merged airline, it could write it's own ticket.

 

[Noserider76]

Unless everyone is a bit unhappy, the pilot's won't agree without arbitration. Right now, DAL would not be unhappy.

Get Unhappy and we will talk.

The thing is most here are very unhappy even with the relative seniority proposal. Not sure it would pass a vote here now but most realize there will be massive compromise and downside in any merger. If this goes through we'll get:

- Stagnation/reduced seniority in all bases as all the AEs are sucked up by NW guys chasing the higher paying airplanes or trying to ease their commute.

- Exposure to a fleet of aircraft most likely to be retired in a recession. Possible bump from base or aircraft if they are.

- The new initial capt position is DTW DC-9.

- You guys seem to discount the fact that many who are DC-9/320 guys long into the future will upgrade to much higher paying positions at the new company.

-On the positive side:

- mis-management has indicated the combined carrier would probably keep more DC-9s than NW would have. (lips were moving though)

- Some equity and small pay raises. These may have been exceded in our new contract amenable in less than 2 years.

- Possibly a stronger company and some great revenue people.

I don't want to get back into the pissing contest but it seems like there were 10 M&Ms at the table and you guys want 8 of them. After sitting in my AME waiting room listening to an American guy (yes, the American guy) bitch about how he lost 2000 numbers to the TWA guys before they got rid of all TWA aircraft, and a US guy telling him how he got totally screwed, I'm convinced we don't want any part of a merger if we have a choice. I really think both companies will do fine.

 

[DTW320]

I don't want to get back into the pissing contest but it seems like there were 10 M&Ms at the table and you guys want 8 of them.

Agree about the contest, but I think what we all need is some accurate info. You see it like described above, but realize that we have heard things such as the DALPA SLI proposal would have put a 10 year NWA FO behind a 2 year DAL guy. Not sure what the truth is but with those things being thrown around you can't be surprised that we aren't drooling to do the deal.

 

[EdTeachLives!]

How do you account for the big % (not majority, but a big%) of NWA pilot's whose frozen DB plan is worth the same as many young DAL pilots PGBC amount? You're trying to paint the picture that NWA guys would get a double benefit from a better contract AND keeping a superior A plan with a big frozen benefit when that is not a true statement across the board. On a different note, in Jan/Feb 62% of NWA pilots who turned 60 retired not including several early retirements.

That might be true in Jan/Feb. However, if this is:

A. Approved by the negotiating com's. and MEC's

B. Passes the increasingly critical eye of MEMRAT

C. And then, NWA subsequently is brought up to DAL pay, DC Plan, Equity, and Term pay raise of 19%:

Then, how many of those guys who are opting today to leave at 60 make that same decision in light of their vastly improved work and benefit conditions? Particularly if they were Republic guys who felt slighted by the Roberts award and then can finish their careers in a 777.

Ed

 

[General Lee]

Some of it sounds appealing, but we all know that contract improvements are temporary until gas hits $130 BBL or another attack, then right back to where we are now! I remember getting a 10.5% raise and then giving it back within 3 years and then some.

How about a fair seniority list merger then?DALPA's idea of fair was to have every DAL pilot move up considerably over the last few years (good for you!) and then move up a bunch when NWA guys retire. (BTW only 5 pilots have stayed past 60 out of over 30 that could have) NWA pilot's would get no credit over the next 10 years even though 70% of the pilots retiring would be NWA pilots? I know it evens out over the next 10-20, but who wants to be stagnant for 10 years?
Stagnant? So, only the Delta guys would move up, and you would sit exactly where you are now if we merged? You wouldn't move up at all? You would be the bottom guy and never move???


If your pension was threatened, you would lose about the same number of guys we did.
But, it wasn't, so they didn't. That's a moot point. You have no idea how many guys would retire? NWA never had a lump sum option.

But it wasnt, so that is moot, eh? Gotta give us credit for the same, though. You can't get it all, and that is what you are asking for. Really, you are looking like USAir East with your entitlement talk.

We also parked a bunch of planes as our guys were leaving (737-200s/300s, 767-200s, MD11s), which didn't really help us much. You would have to take that into account. Don't you think the NC and merger committee's know this?

Your Greenbook Merger Committee leader has to come off his DOH stance, or it will be no deal. That's a rumor, don't be so naive. We have a committee that works together, Laz doesn't have the power you state, believe me.

We'll see if any of this pans out. I would rather have NO merger than a bad one. You probably won't have a choice!

The fact of the matter is that NWA is the absolute best choice for a merger with DAL, CAL or even AMR with our current business model and we know it.

AMR is a good choice? With an ORD hub between your MSP and DTW hubs? Riiiiight. Which of those hubs would go away? One of yours, not valuable ORD. And CAL? The ONLY thing you have in common with them is 787 orders and some 757s. And those guys are even more junior than we are--since they have hired 2000 newbies in the last couple years. I can see why you and your greenbook leader are salivating.....fresh meat..... And, you guys are so stellar---even Wallmart wants to buy you! Get off your high horse. High Oil will hurt you too, even at your fortress hubs.


More cash, less debt, better margins by a ton, 787 options, Fortress hubs, pension debt moot, etc. Anderson knows it, Steenland knows it. NWALPA knows it. Some DAL pilots are acting like we should be falling over ourselves to be saved "by DAL". After DALPA's seniority integration model made it's way through the ranks last week, the people who were "excited" about the contract improvements quickly calmed down when they realized that almost every NWA pilot would be a lot worse off on the seniority list. Will it be a better airline after a merger? Nobody knows, but it will take a long time to reap the benefits for the line employees

You gotta give a little, and so far your committee has shown nothing but entitlement, especailly since you are bringing old planes and cold bases. Oh yeah, you have orders for a plane that hasn't even had a test flight. Wow, you guys rock.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Fly4hire]

You gotta give a little, and so far your committee has shown nothing but entitlement, especailly since you are bringing old planes and cold bases. Oh yeah, you have orders for a plane that hasn't even had a test flight. Wow, you guys rock.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Does an old airplane take any less pilots to staff? Are pilots flying older airplanes less qualified?

Better ask your DC9-88 drivers. Bet you didn't even know it's a common type all the way through the DC9-717. There is also the answer to your question about what you do with the DC9-30/40/50 pilots if we fence and they are parked.

Are cold bases flying any less revenue generating customers than warm bases?

Do you really think that the 787 is not going to fly, and is not a game-changing aircraft for the whole industry?

We staff more efficiently then you do - do you get credit for more pilots when it benefits you, and we get credit for less when it benefits you as well?

I think you need to change your name to Generally Clueless

 

[DTW320]

Oh yeah, you have orders for a plane that hasn't even had a test flight. Wow, you guys rock.

Apparently, the only "rock" here is the proverbial box of them that your group has been accused of being dumber than.