Delta/NWA Seniority List Negotiation Tidbits

[JimBo480]

I’ve read in several articles that the NWA negotiators are willing to take this to binding arbitration, the Delta side is not.

If true, this leaves little doubt in my mind which side has the most reasonable expectations for seniority list integration.

Watching from the sidelines. Jimbo

 

[johnsonrod]

I’ve read in several articles that the NWA negotiators are willing to take this to binding arbitration, the Delta side is not.

If true, this leaves little doubt in my mind which side has the most reasonable expectations for seniority list integration.

Watching from the sidelines. Jimbo

How did binding arbitration work for USAirways?

 

[Noserider76]

I’ve read in several articles that the NWA negotiators are willing to take this to binding arbitration, the Delta side is not.

If true, this leaves little doubt in my mind which side has the most reasonable expectations for seniority list integration.

Watching from the sidelines. Jimbo

Yeah, arbitration works well. Look how it worked for US/AWA. An arbitrated settlement would also probably negate the bennies the company is offering for a early resolution. I think arbitration gives the NW guys a chance to try and get their plan through without the DL pilots voting on it. With a negotiated settlement both sides get to vote. Hey, maybe the senior NW guys don't want the rest of their list to be able to vote on it either.

If there has to be a deal and there has to be screwing let's screw the senior guys for a change:0.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Yeah, arbitration works well. Look how it worked for US/AWA. An arbitrated settlement would also probably negate the bennies the company is offering for a early resolution.

Ya think? <--sarcasm...

I think arbitration gives the NW guys a chance to try and get their plan through without the DL pilots voting on it.

"their plan"? Arbitration is NO plan! There is NO control in arbitration. NONE!

The reasons you go to arbitration are:

1. You're afraid your fingerprints will be on the deal...and a group of your pilots will hate you. In some circles it's referred to "Lack-A-Sack Syndrome". If your constituency includes a bunch of sticker-making, mouth-breathing idiots, you don't want to rile them. You don't because you're a wussie.

2. You think an arbitrator will give you nothing worse than what the other side is proposing...and MIGHT just give you your proposal. The causes of this can be many. Perhaps the other side refuses to acknowledge the reasons you have prioritized the way you have.

3. Failure to engage. Outside events can force the issue to an arbitrator if both sides believe they have more time to reach a deal than they actually have.

With a negotiated settlement both sides get to vote. Hey, maybe the senior NW guys don't want the rest of their list to be able to vote on it either.

Maybe you're right. You aren't...but maybe.

If there has to be a deal and there has to be screwing let's screw the senior guys for a change.

Fer sure! <--more sarcasm.

This isn't the first significant decision point/event in either airlines history. Quit giving yourself credit for "been there...done that". You haven't... The senior pilots have been to wars you've only read about. They've lived it.

If you aren't viewing this with a 360-degree horizon, you're buying into the "me! me! me!" attitude you rail against.

This deal is hung up over the futures of the junior pilots. Period.

 

[Noserider76]

Ya think? <--sarcasm...

"their plan"? Arbitration is NO plan! There is NO control in arbitration. NONE!

The reasons you go to arbitration are:

1. You're afraid your fingerprints will be on the deal...and a group of your pilots will hate you. In some circles it's referred to "Lack-A-Sack Syndrome". If your constituency includes a bunch of sticker-making, mouth-breathing idiots, you don't want to rile them. You don't because you're a wussie.

2. You think an arbitrator will give you nothing worse than what the other side is proposing...and MIGHT just give you your proposal. The causes of this can be many. Perhaps the other side refuses to acknowledge the reasons you have prioritized the way you have.

3. Failure to engage. Outside events can force the issue to an arbitrator if both sides believe they have more time to reach a deal than they actually have.



Maybe you're right. You aren't...but maybe.



Fer sure! <--more sarcasm.

This isn't the first significant decision point/event in either airlines history. Quit giving yourself credit for "been there...done that". You haven't... The senior pilots have been to wars you've only read about. They've lived it.

If you aren't viewing this with a 360-degree horizon, you're buying into the "me! me! me!" attitude you rail against.

This deal is hung up over the futures of the junior pilots. Period.

The last part there was just a bad joke on my part. The DL guys have gone out of their way to take care of the junior guys on the list through all the negotiations, BK, and furloughs as much as humanly possible. I thank them for that.

How bout we take the 3 DL guys and the 3 best guys from NW and lock them in a room with 3 bottles of tequila for a weekend? You're not coming out until the tequila is gone and you have a deal.

 

[Fly4hire]

How bout we take the 3 DL guys and the 3 best guys from NW and lock them in a room with 3 bottles of tequila for a weekend? You're not coming out until the tequila is gone and you have a deal.

Might be a better idea than the current Mexican Standoff. None of the current folks on either side, from equal parts of the list, and there has to be 100% agreement, and everyone comes out alive.

Might want to get extra tequila and some take out.

 

[jke406]

I have been here 10 yrs and I have not been part of any arbitrated settlement. In that time, we have had 4 different contracts in 1998, 2002, 2004 and 2007. They have all been negotiated, not arbitrated. In 2007 we had a judge with a gun in his hand affecting our 'strategy'. Since 2007, we have had 3 rounds of contract improvements. All have been negotiated. Is the arbitration track record you are referring to, have anything to do with Red/Green issues? I think so. So far, it has not affected me.

Except for your substandard pay and work rules, you mean?

 

[PCL_128]

Except for your substandard pay and work rules, you mean?

Which industry-leading carrier was it that you work for, again?

 

[jke406]

deleted.

 

[FDJ2]

Arbitration is NO plan! There is NO control in arbitration. NONE!

The reasons you go to arbitration are:

1. You're afraid your fingerprints will be on the deal...and a group of your pilots will hate you. In some circles it's referred to "Lack-A-Sack Syndrome". If your constituency includes a bunch of sticker-making, mouth-breathing idiots, you don't want to rile them. You don't because you're a wussie.

2. You think an arbitrator will give you nothing worse than what the other side is proposing...and MIGHT just give you your proposal. The causes of this can be many. Perhaps the other side refuses to acknowledge the reasons you have prioritized the way you have.

3. Failure to engage. Outside events can force the issue to an arbitrator if both sides believe they have more time to reach a deal than they actually have.

I'm back to agreeing with Occam. That feels good.


This deal is hung up over the futures of the junior pilots. Period.

Whose junior guys have a brighter future?

Should we quibble over, airframes, pay rates, work rules, aircraft deliveries near term versus long term, attrition next year, 5 years from now, 10 years from now 20 years from now, DC plans, vacation banks, sick leave policies etc., etc.

Which MEC is expected to tell their constituents that their career value is less than the next guys?

What type of pilot group will we be after we're done quibbling if there is a merger? What if we went to arbitration without front end benefits? Or with another company, or with our companies in economic distress next winter. How does that benefit the most junior guy?

 

[Superpilot92]

I agree!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[~~~^~~~]

Occam:

Excellent post.

Can you elaborate on how this is hung up on the junior pilots? You guys really want several thousand Delta guys on the bottom when your senior pilots will bid Delta's growth jets now?

Should a significant percentage of Delta's pilots be bumped from base and equipment?

Arbitrations usually go by pay and equipment, so, why would NWA want to arbitrate?

Also, isn't it impossible to TA this thing without SLI?

There has to be some logic here that I'm overlooking. Can you explain what the NWA MEC considers fair?

 

[Superpilot92]

Occam:

Excellent post.

Can you elaborate on how this is hung up on the junior pilots? You guys really want several thousand Delta guys on the bottom when your senior pilots will bid Delta's growth jets now?

Should a significant percentage of Delta's pilots be bumped from base and equipment?

Just trying to follow your logic as it applies to the bottom 1/4 at both airlines.

How would anyone be bumped from their current positions and bases? There would have to be an opening to bid it right? I would be willing to bet that it wouldnt be a windfall of NWA guys bidding DAL bases either.

 

[~~~^~~~]

DC9 displacements for starters. At most carriers a displaced pilot can bid whatever they can hold.

My thinking is coming around on the 9, but any that leave (and which are not replaced) are going to be very painful.

 

[FDJ2]

Also, isn't it impossible to TA this thing without SLI? Could a Rep sign off on a deal that had an open ended arbitration and pass it along for ratification?

Call your rep and ask him if he's willing to sign off on rolling the dice with your career. I don't think too many at NWA are willing to do that either.

There has to be some logic here that I'm overlooking. Can you explain what the NWA MEC considers fair?

Good question. Another good one would be if the NWALPA merger committees tabled postion gives your career value the same equity value it gives its own pilots? Were they seeking the best deal they could get for their guys or a fair deal for all?