Delta/NWA Seniority List Negotiation Tidbits

[Fly4hire]

How bout we take the 3 DL guys and the 3 best guys from NW and lock them in a room with 3 bottles of tequila for a weekend? You're not coming out until the tequila is gone and you have a deal.

Might be a better idea than the current Mexican Standoff. None of the current folks on either side, from equal parts of the list, and there has to be 100% agreement, and everyone comes out alive.

Might want to get extra tequila and some take out.

 

[jke406]

I have been here 10 yrs and I have not been part of any arbitrated settlement. In that time, we have had 4 different contracts in 1998, 2002, 2004 and 2007. They have all been negotiated, not arbitrated. In 2007 we had a judge with a gun in his hand affecting our 'strategy'. Since 2007, we have had 3 rounds of contract improvements. All have been negotiated. Is the arbitration track record you are referring to, have anything to do with Red/Green issues? I think so. So far, it has not affected me.

Except for your substandard pay and work rules, you mean?

 

[PCL_128]

Except for your substandard pay and work rules, you mean?

Which industry-leading carrier was it that you work for, again?

 

[jke406]

deleted.

 

[FDJ2]

Arbitration is NO plan! There is NO control in arbitration. NONE!

The reasons you go to arbitration are:

1. You're afraid your fingerprints will be on the deal...and a group of your pilots will hate you. In some circles it's referred to "Lack-A-Sack Syndrome". If your constituency includes a bunch of sticker-making, mouth-breathing idiots, you don't want to rile them. You don't because you're a wussie.

2. You think an arbitrator will give you nothing worse than what the other side is proposing...and MIGHT just give you your proposal. The causes of this can be many. Perhaps the other side refuses to acknowledge the reasons you have prioritized the way you have.

3. Failure to engage. Outside events can force the issue to an arbitrator if both sides believe they have more time to reach a deal than they actually have.

I'm back to agreeing with Occam. That feels good.


This deal is hung up over the futures of the junior pilots. Period.

Whose junior guys have a brighter future?

Should we quibble over, airframes, pay rates, work rules, aircraft deliveries near term versus long term, attrition next year, 5 years from now, 10 years from now 20 years from now, DC plans, vacation banks, sick leave policies etc., etc.

Which MEC is expected to tell their constituents that their career value is less than the next guys?

What type of pilot group will we be after we're done quibbling if there is a merger? What if we went to arbitration without front end benefits? Or with another company, or with our companies in economic distress next winter. How does that benefit the most junior guy?

 

[Superpilot92]

I agree!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[~~~^~~~]

Occam:

Excellent post.

Can you elaborate on how this is hung up on the junior pilots? You guys really want several thousand Delta guys on the bottom when your senior pilots will bid Delta's growth jets now?

Should a significant percentage of Delta's pilots be bumped from base and equipment?

Arbitrations usually go by pay and equipment, so, why would NWA want to arbitrate?

Also, isn't it impossible to TA this thing without SLI?

There has to be some logic here that I'm overlooking. Can you explain what the NWA MEC considers fair?

 

[Superpilot92]

Occam:

Excellent post.

Can you elaborate on how this is hung up on the junior pilots? You guys really want several thousand Delta guys on the bottom when your senior pilots will bid Delta's growth jets now?

Should a significant percentage of Delta's pilots be bumped from base and equipment?

Just trying to follow your logic as it applies to the bottom 1/4 at both airlines.

How would anyone be bumped from their current positions and bases? There would have to be an opening to bid it right? I would be willing to bet that it wouldnt be a windfall of NWA guys bidding DAL bases either.

 

[~~~^~~~]

DC9 displacements for starters. At most carriers a displaced pilot can bid whatever they can hold.

My thinking is coming around on the 9, but any that leave (and which are not replaced) are going to be very painful.

 

[FDJ2]

Also, isn't it impossible to TA this thing without SLI? Could a Rep sign off on a deal that had an open ended arbitration and pass it along for ratification?

Call your rep and ask him if he's willing to sign off on rolling the dice with your career. I don't think too many at NWA are willing to do that either.

There has to be some logic here that I'm overlooking. Can you explain what the NWA MEC considers fair?

Good question. Another good one would be if the NWALPA merger committees tabled postion gives your career value the same equity value it gives its own pilots? Were they seeking the best deal they could get for their guys or a fair deal for all?

 

[Superpilot92]

DC9 displacements for starters. At most carriers a displaced pilot can bid whatever they can hold.

My thinking is coming around on the 9, but any that leave (and which are not replaced) are going to be very painful.

There is NO talk right now of dumping the very full, 68 remaining DC9's. Its only you DAL guys who are saying that. You guys keep telling us NWA guys that we cant use projected 787s or age 60 retirements in our merger discussions but yet you can talk about falsehoods in regards to the dc9's in your talks?? discuss

 

[~~~^~~~]

Superpilot - all airplanes will eventually be retired. The DC-9 and some 747's will be next. Not only does this make sense, Steenland talked a lot about replacing these 9's with RJ's in his last two quarterly conference calls. (the 9's have a shorter life in a stand alone plan than they do under a combined airline IMHO)

FDJ2: Your incredulity is spot on. I meant that as a rhetorical question. At least on the DAL property no rep, or management, is/are going to agree to arbitration because it violates the other conditions the deal is based on.

NWA seems to think that getting three out of four and arbitrating the fourth is workable. If so, I want to know how? Occam seems to be telling it straight on the arbitration, so I'm curious how anyone thinks it even could work.

If I see a pig fly, I'm going to want to know how.

 

[FDJ2]

There is NO talk right now of dumping the very full, 68 remaining DC9's. Its only you DAL guys who are saying that. You guys keep telling us NWA guys that we cant use projected 787s or age 60 retirements in our merger discussions but yet you can talk about falsehoods in regards to the dc9's in your talks?? discuss

Why don't we not talk about either? How about we not quibble? I can assure you that for every argument you bring we can counter and then some. What's the end result?

It doesn't really matter, the offer is out there, it was rejected by NWALPA, time to move on, unless of course there's some second thoughts on how this was handled.

If NWALPA doesn't like what's on the table, that's fine, go your own way and we'll go ours. No hard feelings.

There's no telling what the future may bring 5, 10, 15, 20 years from now, so maybe we'll all be revisiting another merger scenario some day, probably not with the same offer up front or with our concurrence, but we'll just all have to deal with that later.

 

[FDJ2]

Occam seems to be telling it straight on the arbitration, so I'm curious how anyone thinks it even could work.

I think what he's telling you, and what any of your reps would tell you, or if you called the DALPA offices what they would tell you is the same thing. No SLI, no transaction agreement. All elements of the transaction agreement must be in place or their is no transaction and no one is going to arbitrate the SLI in order to complete this transaction.

The only way this will work is to realize that we are in uncharted waters where the old approach of "going out to get the best deal you can", needs to be replaced by a new approach of working together to get the best TA we can get, the most equity we can get and the fairest SLI we can get or all pilots. Posturing and stacking the list isn't going to get it done.

Occam is right that the junior pilots need to be protected, but they need to be protected at DAL also. I'm just wondering if it will continue to be the position at NWALPA that the NWA pilots bring more equity to the merger and therefore deserve preferential seniority and the right to move up relative to their peers at DAL. That is a non starter.

 

[Superpilot92]

Superpilot - all airplanes will eventually be retired. The DC-9 and some 747's will be next. Not only does this make sense, Steenland talked a lot about replacing these 9's with RJ's in his last two quarterly conference calls. (the 9's have a shorter life in a stand alone plan than they do under a combined airline IMHO)

Sure every plane will be retired, even DAL planes. The problem is you guys talk hypothetically all 9's getting parked but when we talk about the 787's or retirements that are coming your guys say, wait that hasn't happened yet and you cant talk hypothetically. which is it?

The projected plan is to keep 68 DC9s until a replacement at MAINLINE can be found. Scope clause protects the 9's from being replaced by RJ's. Plus if a merger did happen we can only hope part of the agreement is locking scope out and making any further aircraft orders, mainline aircraft.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Sure every plane will be retired, even DAL planes. The problem is you guys talk hypothetically all 9's getting parked but when we talk about the 787's or retirements that are coming your guys say, wait that hasn't happened yet and you cant talk hypothetically. which is it?

The projected plan is to keep 68 DC9s until a replacement at MAINLINE can be found. Scope clause protects the 9's from being replaced by RJ's. Plus if a merger did happen we can only hope part of the agreement is locking scope out and making any further aircraft mainline aircraft.

Haven't you been there like a day?

 

[FDJ2]

The projected plan is to keep 69 DC9s until a replacement at MAINLINE can be found. Scope clause protects the 9's from being replaced by RJ's. Plus if a merger did happen we can only hope part of the agreement is locking scope out and making any further aircraft mainline aircraft.

And projected plans are never altered right? Management always sticks to the script, you can bank on it.

Let's quibble some more about what each of us brings, that'll get it done.

The best thing that can happen if there isn't a radical change in approach is for this thing to die. It would be a shame, but obviously we wont have an agreement if guys are bent on quibbling about what may or may not happen in the next 10, 15, 20, pick the number that best suits your interest years.

 

[Superpilot92]

If I see a pig fly, I'm going to want to know how.

On a side note we are both pretty new so we dont have much say anyway Also Someone very wise told me that speculating on forums is nothing more than mental masturbation and i am beginning to believe that more and more! LOL

Either way Good luck to you DAL guys as hopefully in the end we are all in this together, one way or the other.:beer:

 

[Superpilot92]

Haven't you been there like a day?

Yup i just started today, I am in the first class EVER to start on a Saturday!! Awesome isn't it? Thanks for keeping tabs though I am Flattered!!:blush:

 

[Superpilot92]

And projected plans are never altered right? Management always sticks to the script, you can bank on it.

Let's quibble some more about what each of us brings, that'll get it done.

The best thing that can happen if there isn't a radical change in approach is for this thing to die. It would be a shame, but obviously we wont have an agreement if guys are bent on quibbling about what may or may not happen in the next 10, 15, 20, pick the number that best suits your interest years.

hey i never said plans don't change. All i said is hypothetical statements from dal guys are just as pointless as hypothetical statements by nwa guys, am i right?