Delta/NWA Seniority List Negotiation Tidbits

[formerdal]

Later

You guys are amazing...if you think any of those approaching age 60 guys are going to retire you're nuts. Mark my words those retirements you are counting on will not begin for at least 5 years!!

No to mention the assumption that any of us will still be in business.

GOOD LUCK...

 

[Diesel-9]

Just saw NWA retirement numbers. JAN/FEB had 20-25 each month. Last 3 months of 2007 saw 25-30 a month retire in the 57+ age range.

 

[DTW320]

You guys are amazing...if you think any of those approaching age 60 guys are going to retire you're nuts. Mark my words those retirements you are counting on will not begin for at least 5 years!!

No to mention the assumption that any of us will still be in business.

GOOD LUCK...

Wrong. Even before the frozen pension and lower payrates, retirement totals were running twice the age 60 mandatory retirements. Now, an age 60 can retire with his frozen 6 figure pension plus lump sum from the excess plan vs continuing to work for not a whole lot more than that Sure some don't have a life and will stay, but I have not met a single one that doesn't say it would be crazy to stay past 60. So, yeah, I guess I am "nuts"

 

[ewarning]

What pilots say

Wrong. Even before the frozen pension and lower payrates, retirement totals were running twice the age 60 mandatory retirements. Now, an age 60 can retire with his frozen 6 figure pension plus lump sum from the excess plan vs continuing to work for not a whole lot more than that Sure some don't have a life and will stay, but I have not met a single one that doesn't say it would be crazy to stay past 60. So, yeah, I guess I am "nuts"

DTW,

Large numbers of senior pilots say that retirement is the only option, until they approach the cliff and most will not jump off until they are forced to. Granted only time will tell.

In the words of Gordon Geko, "Greed is good!"

E

 

[Gunfighter]

Here's a hypothetical.

Let's say you are an NWA middle of the list 757 FO. Your are given a choice between slightly better work rules right away, a raise from $98 to $109 per hour, $100,000, and significant possibility of career stagnation or you can keep your work rules, continue to make $98 per hour, and upgrade when the guys above you retire and 787 deliveries start (two to three years) making $144 per hour. What would you do?

I'd take the bird in hand. NWA still benefits from the retirements, although on a diluted percentage. Additionally they benefit from immediate deliveries of DAL airplanes. It looks like good risk mitigation to me.

 

[JimBo480]

I’ve read in several articles that the NWA negotiators are willing to take this to binding arbitration, the Delta side is not.

If true, this leaves little doubt in my mind which side has the most reasonable expectations for seniority list integration.

Watching from the sidelines. Jimbo

 

[johnsonrod]

I’ve read in several articles that the NWA negotiators are willing to take this to binding arbitration, the Delta side is not.

If true, this leaves little doubt in my mind which side has the most reasonable expectations for seniority list integration.

Watching from the sidelines. Jimbo

How did binding arbitration work for USAirways?

 

[Noserider76]

I’ve read in several articles that the NWA negotiators are willing to take this to binding arbitration, the Delta side is not.

If true, this leaves little doubt in my mind which side has the most reasonable expectations for seniority list integration.

Watching from the sidelines. Jimbo

Yeah, arbitration works well. Look how it worked for US/AWA. An arbitrated settlement would also probably negate the bennies the company is offering for a early resolution. I think arbitration gives the NW guys a chance to try and get their plan through without the DL pilots voting on it. With a negotiated settlement both sides get to vote. Hey, maybe the senior NW guys don't want the rest of their list to be able to vote on it either.

If there has to be a deal and there has to be screwing let's screw the senior guys for a change:0.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Yeah, arbitration works well. Look how it worked for US/AWA. An arbitrated settlement would also probably negate the bennies the company is offering for a early resolution.

Ya think? <--sarcasm...

I think arbitration gives the NW guys a chance to try and get their plan through without the DL pilots voting on it.

"their plan"? Arbitration is NO plan! There is NO control in arbitration. NONE!

The reasons you go to arbitration are:

1. You're afraid your fingerprints will be on the deal...and a group of your pilots will hate you. In some circles it's referred to "Lack-A-Sack Syndrome". If your constituency includes a bunch of sticker-making, mouth-breathing idiots, you don't want to rile them. You don't because you're a wussie.

2. You think an arbitrator will give you nothing worse than what the other side is proposing...and MIGHT just give you your proposal. The causes of this can be many. Perhaps the other side refuses to acknowledge the reasons you have prioritized the way you have.

3. Failure to engage. Outside events can force the issue to an arbitrator if both sides believe they have more time to reach a deal than they actually have.

With a negotiated settlement both sides get to vote. Hey, maybe the senior NW guys don't want the rest of their list to be able to vote on it either.

Maybe you're right. You aren't...but maybe.

If there has to be a deal and there has to be screwing let's screw the senior guys for a change.

Fer sure! <--more sarcasm.

This isn't the first significant decision point/event in either airlines history. Quit giving yourself credit for "been there...done that". You haven't... The senior pilots have been to wars you've only read about. They've lived it.

If you aren't viewing this with a 360-degree horizon, you're buying into the "me! me! me!" attitude you rail against.

This deal is hung up over the futures of the junior pilots. Period.

 

[Noserider76]

Ya think? <--sarcasm...

"their plan"? Arbitration is NO plan! There is NO control in arbitration. NONE!

The reasons you go to arbitration are:

1. You're afraid your fingerprints will be on the deal...and a group of your pilots will hate you. In some circles it's referred to "Lack-A-Sack Syndrome". If your constituency includes a bunch of sticker-making, mouth-breathing idiots, you don't want to rile them. You don't because you're a wussie.

2. You think an arbitrator will give you nothing worse than what the other side is proposing...and MIGHT just give you your proposal. The causes of this can be many. Perhaps the other side refuses to acknowledge the reasons you have prioritized the way you have.

3. Failure to engage. Outside events can force the issue to an arbitrator if both sides believe they have more time to reach a deal than they actually have.



Maybe you're right. You aren't...but maybe.



Fer sure! <--more sarcasm.

This isn't the first significant decision point/event in either airlines history. Quit giving yourself credit for "been there...done that". You haven't... The senior pilots have been to wars you've only read about. They've lived it.

If you aren't viewing this with a 360-degree horizon, you're buying into the "me! me! me!" attitude you rail against.

This deal is hung up over the futures of the junior pilots. Period.

The last part there was just a bad joke on my part. The DL guys have gone out of their way to take care of the junior guys on the list through all the negotiations, BK, and furloughs as much as humanly possible. I thank them for that.

How bout we take the 3 DL guys and the 3 best guys from NW and lock them in a room with 3 bottles of tequila for a weekend? You're not coming out until the tequila is gone and you have a deal.