Delta/NWA Seniority List Negotiation Tidbits

[ExAF]

Here Goes

It doesn't really matter, the offer is out there, it was rejected by NWALPA, time to move on, unless of course there's some second thoughts on how this was handled.

If NWALPA doesn't like what's on the table, that's fine, go your own way and we'll go ours. No hard feelings.

I can't believe I'm actually going to respond to one of these rumor mill threads, but against my better judgment, here goes. Your post basically says DAL has presented THE offer and NWALPA rejected it. Not really sure where that came from and have no idea if it is a valid statement or not. But that sounds to me like DAL is dictating THE terms and NWA has no input. Then you say if NWA doesn't like it then go home. That doesn't sound like a group that is looking for a fair SLI. It sounds more like "Our way or the highway." Not sure if you meant for it to come across that way, but if you did, I now understand why this dog won't hunt. Fair and/or equitable is in the eye of the beholder as is evident by the many "what do you bring to the table," "my jets are shinier than yours," "my bases are better than yours," "I make more money than you" and "my Johnson is bigger than yours" threads that have continued to stir the pot. Both sides have a different perspective based on different experiences. If there isn't room for some give and take to accommodate or at least address both perspectives then it is most probably doomed. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail if it is really good for the group as a whole.

 

[FDJ2]

hey i never said plans don't change. All i said is hypothetical statements from dal guys are just as pointless as hypothetical statements by nwa guys, am i right?

Yes, you are right. We are where we are are.

Good luck to you.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

deleted.

Wussy, as usual. Only time you stand behind your cheap shots is when they're directed at a cancer patient.....

 

[123]

Fair and/or equitable is in the eye of the beholder as is evident by the many "what do you bring to the table," "my jets are shinier than yours," "my bases are better than yours," "I make more money than you" and "my Johnson is bigger than yours"...

Don't forget the "Our jackets are double breasted therefore, twice as good as yours"

 

[FDJ2]

Your post basically says DAL has presented THE offer and NWALPA rejected it. Not really sure where that came from and have no idea if it is a valid statement or not. But that sounds to me like DAL is dictating THE terms and NWA has no input.

No, what I am saying is that DALPA entered with a list designed to be fair and equitable for all pilots, NWALPA chose a different approach. There is no requirement for either side to change its position.

Then you say if NWA doesn't like it then go home.

Sorry if you misunderstood, NWALPA has a choice to make, there is little if any wiggle room, DALPA didn't approach this as a "get the best deal you can get" meeting of merger committees, DALPA approached this as a get the fairest list for all pilots meeting of merger committees.

There is a difference there.

Frankly, if you want to play in the sand box, don't come thinking that a NWA pilot has greater career value than a DAL pilot similarly placed on the respective lists.


That doesn't sound like a group that is looking for a fair SLI.

Really, have you seen what was proposed? Do you think that you bring more to the table based on your position on your list than a similarly placed DAL pilot?


It sounds more like "Our way or the highway." Not sure if you meant for it to come across that way, but if you did, I now understand why this dog won't hunt.

No it's more like, let's not quibble, lets get it done. Unfortunately you brought a committe to the SLI negotiations with a long history of quibbling and not getting it done, a committe with a long history of turning it over to an arbitrator.

That my friend is the dog that wont hunt.

You are not being courted, so don't play coy and overplay your hand. Take a serious look at what was offered and make your own decision.

You don't like it, walk away. No sweat. We aren't here to sell it to you.

Perhaps the root of the problem was that the entire concept of getting in front of a merger and making pilots relevant from the inception is a product of DALPA, so your guys were a little overwhelmed at first, maybe not as prepared as they should have been and fell back on their habitual pattern of seeking arbitration over negotiations.

It's going to take a different mindset.

Fair and/or equitable is in the eye of the beholder as is evident by the many "what do you bring to the table," "my jets are shinier than yours," "my bases are better than yours," "I make more money than you" and "my Johnson is bigger than yours" threads that have continued to stir the pot. Both sides have a different perspective based on different experiences. If there isn't room for some give and take to accommodate or at least address both perspectives then it is most probably doomed.

It's probably doomed if we can't get beyond that. Do you feel you bring more to the table then your counter part a DAL who is relatively in the same spot on the list? If so, let the quibbling continue.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail if it is really good for the group as a whole.

We'll see what happens,but it's going to take a radical change of mindsets to make it happen. If it doesn't happen, what a pity, that bickering and posturing squadered a rare opportunity.

 

[FDJ2]

Don't forget the "Our jackets are double breasted therefore, twice as good as yours"

I think you would be surprised who thinks their jackets are twice as good.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Can you elaborate on how this is hung up on the junior pilots? You guys really want several thousand Delta guys on the bottom when your senior pilots will bid Delta's growth jets now?

"growth jets"?

C'mon! You sound like Bob "It's Not A B-Scale, It's A Growth Scale!" Crandall!

I have it on good authority that both airlines have large aircraft on order. Both pilot groups will bid what/where they want to fly.

Sheesh!

Should a significant percentage of Delta's pilots be bumped from base and equipment?

You been drinking? Seriously. No bump...no flush. It would take expansion then contraction within a category...or a new base, to cause displacements.

Tell me you're familiar with how airline pilots bid for positions. Please.

Every time you post something like that I get a headache from my eyes rolling too far up into my head.

Call your rep. Ask him how it works.

Arbitrations usually go by pay and equipment, so, why would NWA want to arbitrate?

(sigh)

Who told you arbitrations go by pay and equipment? They go by what the arbitrator decides they will go by. The NWA/REP Roberts Award didn't go by pay and equipment. It was done by DOH, with Conditions & Restrictions.

It was Exhibit "A" for how unpredictable arbitration can be.

Also, isn't it impossible to TA this thing without SLI?

That decision would be made by a klatsch of the buttwipes who run the two major hedge funds that are pushing for this deal...and by the Senior Surrender Monkey at Air France, who'll be coughing up the Euros to tender their shares.

There has to be some logic here that I'm overlooking. Can you explain what the NWA MEC considers fair?

Something that considers the math of future seniority progression irrespective of possible growth. You don't have to agree with it to understand it.

The perception by the NWA MEC is that there is a significant portion of the DAL seniority list that isn't feeling the same pain that a number of our pilots will. It's that simple.

Me?

I'm cool.

But I don't make the call.

Other guys do.

They'll hit it again on Monday in NYC.

 

[PCL_128]

Who told you arbitrations go by pay and equipment?

Don't you remember, Occam? That's what Dan Ford kept trying to tell everyone to convince them that the PID wasn't really a seniority grab.

 

[FDJ2]

possible[/i] growth. You don't have to agree with it to understand it.

But we do have to agree to it and then ignore our issues.

Do you think that's likely?

I guess somethings never change. Good luck with that approach.

The perception by the NWA MEC is that there is a significant portion of the DAL seniority list that isn't feeling the same pain that a number of our pilots will. It's that simple.

Too bad, the perception at the DAL MEC is that members of the NWALPA are still wanting to quibble and focus on their issues at the exclussion of the DAL pilot issues. Not the recipe for success.

Me?

I'm cool.

But I don't make the call.

Other guys do.

They'll hit it again on Monday in NYC.

I'm not too optimistic if what you've written is consistent with what will be proposed.

Too bad. I know you guys wanted to meet again, but it looks like we're in for the same old song and dance of how a NWALPA pilot similarly situated brings more equity to the merger.

That will sell well with our membership.

 

[DAL737FO]

"growth jets"?



You been drinking? Seriously. No bump...no flush. It would take expansion then contraction within a category...or a new base, to cause displacements.


Occam,

I don't know how bids go at NWA but we have been having AE's (that's a bid) every three months here at Delta. So we give you favorable seniority integration that puts you ahead of a good many Delta guys then what is stopping you from bidding ATL 767 A on the next bid. The stagnation in certain bases could be tremendous as NWA guys decide it's easier to commute to ATL, CVG or LAX then MSP or DET.