Delta/NWA Seniority List Negotiation Tidbits

[Redmeat]

I think you need to change your name to Generally Clueless

:smash:

Now that right thar is funny!

I don't care who ya are that's funny!

 

[General Lee]

Does an old airplane take any less pilots to staff? Are pilots flying older airplanes less qualified? Better ask your DC9-88 drivers. Bet you didn't even know it's a common type all the way through the DC9-717. There also the answer to your question about what you do with the DC9-40/50 pilots if we fence and they are parked.

Are cold bases flying any less revenue generating customers than warm bases?

Do you really think that the 787 is not going to fly, and is not a game-changing aircraft for the whole industry?

I think you need to change your name to Generally Clueless

You're the guy who claimed that NWA had to keep the name thanks to the NRT hub......Talk about clueless. And, I think I also showed you were wrong about your "intra Japan" flying when you claimed you could fly pax between NRT and NGO, and again, I showed you who was clueless.

Anyway, nwaredtail talks about stagnation. Really? How about in places like MSP and DTW? If this merger ever happened, anyone flying at those bases would SHOOT STRAIGHT TO THE TOP of those lists, thanks to the invasion of all of the warm new bases by NWA ice cubes. Yep, being the bottom at DTW one day, and the after the first bid of the combined company, you are now number 1 in DTW. Yeah, that sounds like stagnation alright....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

:smash:

Now that right thar is funny!

I don't care who ya are that's funny!

I am sure you did think that was funny meat head. Really, I proved that he was clueless with all of his NRT MEANS WE KEEP THE NWA NAME b.s.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Redmeat]

I am sure you did think that was funny meat head.

That's MR. meat head to you, General "we got are butts handed to us by the yanks on our own turf" Lee.

 

[Fly4hire]

Anyway, nwaredtail talks about stagnation. Really? How about in places like MSP and DTW? If this merger ever happened, anyone flying at those bases would SHOOT STRAIGHT TO THE TOP of those lists, thanks to the invasion of all of the warm new bases by NWA ice cubes. Yep, being the bottom at DTW one day, and the after the first bid of the combined company, you are now number 1 in DTW. Yeah, that sounds like stagnation alright....
Bye Bye--General Lee

Your ignorance is showing again.

DTW has 2200+ pilots, including the bulk of our 330, and all the 747-400 positions, and everything in between. Do you really think they are all going to drop what they are doing to rush south of the Mason Dixon line so they can eat grits and hush-puppies and chew tobacco?

MSP has the highest percentage of pilots who live in base - most of them are not going anywhere.

Just like you we have pilots who live all over, and some North and South, but a huge demographic shift with a merge is not going to happen.

This deal will happen when you guys stop being so impressed with yourselves and stop acting like mainline pilots with SJS. We don't want you or need you, and if you don't want to bargain in earnest we'll be seeing you with the arbitrator, or better yet, not at all.

 

[Redmeat]

MSP has the highest percentage of pilots who live in base - most of them are not going anywhere.

Yep, the MSP boys (and gals) aren't going anywhere (especially to the war zone that has become Atlanta).

The saying is " Minneapolis...why would you want to live anywhere else?"

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Lets not forget that dal is not SAVING us . They need us for the midwest stronghold and the pacific. They don't have 20 yrs to build a formidable asian presence and cvg will never be a midwest powerhouse. One would think they never were a brokedick, bankrupt, poorly managed company by the way some of the yahoos on this board act. I guess nw, ual, usair were the only ones.

 

[Diesel-9]

I have read on Google and Yahoo Finance that DAL is looking for a 3:1 ratio. Has anyone else ever heard that? I would have thought that with the double breasts they would have at least asked for 4:1.

 

[General Lee]

Your ignorance is showing again.

DTW has 2200+ pilots, including the bulk of our 330, and all the 747-400 positions, and everything in between. Do you really think they are all going to drop what they are doing to rush south of the Mason Dixon line so they can eat grits and hush-puppies and chew tobacco?

MSP has the highest percentage of pilots who live in base - most of them are not going anywhere.

Just like you we have pilots who live all over, and some North and South, but a huge demographic shift with a merge is not going to happen.

This deal will happen when you guys stop being so impressed with yourselves and stop acting like mainline pilots with SJS. We don't want you or need you, and if you don't want to bargain in earnest we'll be seeing you with the arbitrator, or better yet, not at all.

How many pilots do you have commuting? That is the key here, not how many high paying positions you have in DTW. There are plenty of commuters in FLA or AZ for you guys, and with your DOH scheme that is in fact ridiculous, you guys would "clean up." Not gonna happen. A mass exodus would happen regardless of what you are spouting, and we all know it. ATL is closer than DTW or MSP for the FLA commuters, and new 777s would be suit your guys just fine I am sure...

If we don't merge with you guys, fine with ME!

Here is your problem, though. Steenland says consolidation is inevitable. If not with DAL (which has financial backing from Air France--which is better than a hedge fund with no real real want in owning an airline for an airline's sake), then who? CAL? CAL pilots would object to your Imperialist views too. AMR? ORD is between MSP and DTW---not gonna happen. What next? Steenland wants to retire on Lake Minnetonka.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[123]

...
If an agreement is reached than a significant hurdle has been overcome. The mountain on the horizon is MEMRAT and it becomes increasingly formidable as more and more information is released.

Ed

Ed,

It is my understanding that an SLI will not be subject to MEMRAT, only the contract that would follow. The SLI is to be decided by each MEC. Have you been informed of something different?

Thanks,

 

[General Lee]

I have read on Google and Yahoo Finance that DAL is looking for a 3:1 ratio. Has anyone else ever heard that? I would have thought that with the double breasts they would have at least asked for 4:1.

I call that B.S. But, if we have more pilots, and we don't do a 1 for 1 leaving our bottom 2500 guys at the bottom, how would you think we should do it? There would have to be some type of ratio. Your top 400 guys would probably remain that way, and then there would have to be a ratio that looks at everything.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Lets not forget that dal is not SAVING us . They need us for the midwest stronghold and the pacific. They don't have 20 yrs to build a formidable asian presence and cvg will never be a midwest powerhouse. One would think they never were a brokedick, bankrupt, poorly managed company by the way some of the yahoos on this board act. I guess nw, ual, usair were the only ones.

Do we need your stronghold in the Pacific? Not really. Our 777s overfly NRT now, and we are getting more. It would be nice to have a connection hub there I guess, but not necessary for survival. And, don't forget Steenland saying he wanted to be proactive in consolidation. He didn't say "no, get away you guys!"

Will MEM be a powerhouse at anything other than Fedex? CVG has our highest yields. And yes, we were a poorly managed company, until we got your former boss. How do you like your current boss? He loves you guys. I never said our poop didn't stink, but it is getting better thanks to better management and better plans.

You seem to think ASIA is where it is AT and nothing is better. You have a presence at AMS, but very few other cities in Europe. You have nothing in Africa or South America, and only one flight to Liberia, Costa Rica on Saturdays during the Winter only for Latin America. Throw in another bird flu outbreak, and you are sunk. Too much focus on one area. How much did you lose during the SARS outbreak? Cathay Pacific lost a ton. Could it happen again, ever? I think that helped send you into BK too when that happened? Gotta diversify....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Noserider76]

Lets not forget that dal is not SAVING us . They need us for the midwest stronghold and the pacific. They don't have 20 yrs to build a formidable asian presence and cvg will never be a midwest powerhouse. One would think they never were a brokedick, bankrupt, poorly managed company by the way some of the yahoos on this board act. I guess nw, ual, usair were the only ones.

No one here thinks they're saving you. You have a great company and will do well no matter what happens. On the other hand, I don't believe we need you either. The only ones that need this deal are the institutional investors.

I've heard the entire deal will be subject to Memrat. All or nothing on the package of contract and SLI.

Minny is a great town. Probably no better place to raise kids.

 

[wings421]

Minny is a great town. Probably no better place to raise kids.

or penguins...

 

[Superpilot92]

How many pilots do you have commuting? That is the key here, not how many high paying positions you have in DTW. There are plenty of commuters in FLA or AZ for you guys, and with your DOH scheme that is in fact ridiculous, you guys would "clean up." Not gonna happen. A mass exodus would happen regardless of what you are spouting, and we all know it. ATL is closer than DTW or MSP for the FLA commuters, and new 777s would be suit your guys just fine I am sure...

If we don't merge with you guys, fine with ME!

Here is your problem, though. Steenland says consolidation is inevitable. If not with DAL (which has financial backing from Air France--which is better than a hedge fund with no real real want in owning an airline for an airline's sake), then who? CAL? CAL pilots would object to your Imperialist views too. AMR? ORD is between MSP and DTW---not gonna happen. What next? Steenland wants to retire on Lake Minnetonka.

Bye Bye--General Lee

OH geeze i forgot all nwa pilots want to live in DAL bases. I guess i also didnt realize that DAL doesnt have any commuters Your conversations are always one sided, go figure.

With that said, if we can get DFW back open I am all over it

 

[NuGuy]

Your ignorance is showing again.

DTW has 2200+ pilots, including the bulk of our 330, and all the 747-400 positions, and everything in between. Do you really think they are all going to drop what they are doing to rush south of the Mason Dixon line so they can eat grits and hush-puppies and chew tobacco?

MSP has the highest percentage of pilots who live in base - most of them are not going anywhere.

Just like you we have pilots who live all over, and some North and South, but a huge demographic shift with a merge is not going to happen.

This deal will happen when you guys stop being so impressed with yourselves and stop acting like mainline pilots with SJS. We don't want you or need you, and if you don't want to bargain in earnest we'll be seeing you with the arbitrator, or better yet, not at all.

Heyas F4H,

Absolutely accurate.

What the "general" convienently forgets is that the one thing that NWA hubs DO lack lack is worthwhile LCC competition. DTW has a VERY small splash of SWA and Tranny with Spirit in full speed rewind.

MSP? A touch of Sun Country and Tranny. No SWA in sight.

MEM? Some Tranny flights, and that's about it.

IND? Hardly a "hub", but both ATA and Tranny couldn't leave fast enough.

DAL? Ooooh, hmmm, lots of yield busting Tranny in their own house there, as well as JB in JFK and SWA at SLC.

DAL couldn't give their 100 seat flying away fast enough. On top of that, they just about GAVE those very airplanes away to a competitor that promptly used them to destroy DAL yields in their own "fortress hub". Nothing like handing a burglar the gun with which he shoots you.

It makes the guy who made the call to re-manufacture the -9s at NWA for a mere $2 mil a copy versus $18-22 mil per RJ or 717 look pretty smart. Had DAL done the same thing, think about how many MORE DAL pilots there would be. In the end analysis, it's all about the guys ON YOUR PROPERTY. One more airplane, even the small ones, means 10-16 more guys, and 5-8 more upgrades, and one less airplane flown by people trying to drag your wages down.

As far as the cold North places, like OMA, FSD, FAR (which NWA has been serving since 1928) and the like, the DAL boyos' new hero, RA, said it best himself "they may be cold and dark, but they're all OURS". It isn't about the size of your airplane, but the size of the yield. MOT might be cold, and the walkarounds might suck, but the full flights of full fare paying passengers makes for a healthy bottom line, as do the FULL flights from NRT to other Asia cities, filled with Japanese passengers.

Nu

 

[General Lee]

Heyas F4H,

Absolutely accurate.

ABSOLUTELY.....NOT.

What the "general" convienently forgets is that the one thing that NWA hubs DO lack lack is worthwhile LCC competition. DTW has a VERY small splash of SWA and Tranny with Spirit in full speed rewind.

That's great, and it really is your only good thing about your cool hubs and old domestic planes. You do hold fortress hubs, which is good. Your old planes, though, need work. Anderson may have loved them when Oil was cheaper, but not now. And you are starting to park the DC9s (30 -30s this year, right?). It won't get any better with high oil.

MSP? A touch of Sun Country and Tranny. No SWA in sight. Do we have SWA at any of our hubs? A little in SLC, and a bit in LAX, but that is it too. Airtran is our competitior in ATL, and is trying to be yours in MSP. The thing is that Airtran can't get any more gates in ATL or MSP currently.

MEM? Some Tranny flights, and that's about it.

IND? Hardly a "hub", but both ATA and Tranny couldn't leave fast enough. Your IND is an RJ hub mainly. How many mainline flights do you have out of there a day anyway?

DAL? Ooooh, hmmm, lots of yield busting Tranny in their own house there, as well as JB in JFK and SWA at SLC.

Airtran does not compete with any of our INTL flights, and a lot of our domestic pax are connecting onto our numerous INTL flights. We have more INTL flights from ATL than you do in all of the United States. (any of your hubs, combined) We control 70% of the traffic at the busiest airport in the world. You control Detroit and MSP, places nobody wants to visit for fun. Wow. Southwest does compete with us at SLC, but often on one flight a day to certain cities. There are no extra gates in SLC for them to use either. Controlled growth.

DAL couldn't give their 100 seat flying away fast enough. On top of that, they just about GAVE those very airplanes away to a competitor that promptly used them to destroy DAL yields in their own "fortress hub". Nothing like handing a burglar the gun with which he shoots you.

We have 76 seaters doing 100 seat markets right now, filling the planes. You have old DC9s that are being parked this year (30 of them). Sounds like your 100 seat market is going away too. How many people does a DC9-40 or -50 hold? We have 737-700s coming this year, which will regain some of that market, along with a new carpet smell. How do those DC9s smell? Like the 1960s? Who did we give our airplanes to? I don't know what you mean? Again, we own 70% of the largest airport in the world. ATL makes MSP and DTW look like St Cloud.

It makes the guy who made the call to re-manufacture the -9s at NWA for a mere $2 mil a copy versus $18-22 mil per RJ or 717 look pretty smart. Had DAL done the same thing, think about how many MORE DAL pilots there would be. In the end analysis, it's all about the guys ON YOUR PROPERTY. One more airplane, even the small ones, means 10-16 more guys, and 5-8 more upgrades, and one less airplane flown by people trying to drag your wages down.

We are looking at getting fairly new (anything is fairly new compared to your old DC9s) MD90s that are now readily available. 100 are out there (Saudia just put 28 up for sale), and they are newer and can carry more people, farther, than your old embarrassing planes. Really, people who say it is "a real pilot's plane" are confused. And guess what? We are getting NEW planes. We are hiring 100 this month alone. We are doing this while you are ditching planes, and hiring a bit for attrition. You have old planes (DC9s and 742s) and they will be gone soon. We are getting 3 777LRs this year, and 6 in the first three months of next year. Do you know how many pilots that will take? They are LRs, meaning LONG RANGE. That means 2 Captains and 2 FOs per flight. Australia just opened up open skies, and we have the rights to go to Singapore, New Zealand, and Samoa. Where is the 787 in the flight test process? It hasn't started yet? Bummer.

As far as the cold North places, like OMA, FSD, FAR (which NWA has been serving since 1928) and the like, the DAL boyos' new hero, RA, said it best himself "they may be cold and dark, but they're all OURS". It isn't about the size of your airplane, but the size of the yield. MOT might be cold, and the walkarounds might suck, but the full flights of full fare paying passengers makes for a healthy bottom line, as do the FULL flights from NRT to other Asia cities, filled with Japanese passengers.

The great thing is that all of the LCCs out there KNOW where the highest fares are, and as they expand and have to put planes somewhere, they will. They may enter OMA (like SWA has) and take your connecting passengers away, so they don't go through MSP and go through MDW instead. They will look for opportunities, and you will be faced with the same thing the rest of us are. The LCCs have to put their new planes somewhere. And I think it is great that you are Tokyo's favorite airline.....riiight. Somehow I think JAL and ANA think otherwise. They do have a heck of a lot more flights to those same cities you go to from NRT, while you throw on one A330, etc. Don't lie to yourself, and the rest of us.



Nu

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

We have 76 seaters doing 100 seat markets right now, filling the planes. You have old DC9s that are being parked this year (30 of them). Sounds like your 100 seat market is going away too. How many people does a DC9-40 or -50 hold? We have 737-700s coming this year, which will regain some of that market, along with a new carpet smell. How do those DC9s smell? Like the 1960s? Who did we give our airplanes to? I don't know what you mean? Again, we own 70% of the largest airport in the world. ATL makes MSP and DTW look like St Cloud.
Bye Bye--General Lee

Since you were so interested in the size and age, oh and lets not forget the "smell" of the DC-9. I hope this info helps.


[FONT=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva]The DC-9-40 and DC-9-50 are stretched developments of the DC-9-30 and predecessors to the later further lengthened MD-80 and MD-90 series.

The DC-9-40 was developed in response to a Scandinavian Airlines System (SAS) requirement for a larger capacity development of the DC-9. Compared with the DC-9-30, the DC-9-40 is 1.88m (6ft 2in) longer, raising seating capacity in a single class configuration to 125. Apart from the fuselage stretch and more powerful engine options, the -40 was the much the same as the -30. First flight occurred on November 28 1967, and the -40 entered service with SAS on March 12 the following year.

The DC-9-50 is the largest member of the DC-9/MD-80/MD-90/717 family to bear the DC-9 designation. Launched in mid 1973, the DC-9-50 is a further 2.44m (8ft 0in) longer than the DC-9-40, or 4.34m (14ft 3in) longer than the DC-9-30, and has maximum seating for 139 passengers. Delivered from August 1975, the DC-9-50 introduced a new look cabin interior designed to make more efficient use of the space available and give the impression of a more spacious interior, plus other improved features such as an improved anti skid braking system and quieter engines compared with the DC-9-40.
The DC-9-40 and -50 sold only in fairly modest numbers before the arrival of the further stretched MD-80 series. The largest DC-9-40 customer was SAS, while Northwest continues to operate a large fleet of DC-9-40s and -50s (it is currently the largest DC-9 operator in the world).
[/FONT]

 

[General Lee]

Since you were so interested in the size and age, oh and lets not forget the "smell" of the DC-9. I hope this info helps.


[FONT=ARIAL, Helvetica, Geneva]The DC-9-40 and DC-9-50 are stretched developments of the DC-9-30 and predecessors to the later further lengthened MD-80 and MD-90 series.

The DC-9-40 was developed in response to a Scandinavian Airlines System (SAS) requirement for a larger capacity development of the DC-9. Compared with the DC-9-30, the DC-9-40 is 1.88m (6ft 2in) longer, raising seating capacity in a single class configuration to 125. Apart from the fuselage stretch and more powerful engine options, the -40 was the much the same as the -30. First flight occurred on November 28 1967, and the -40 entered service with SAS on March 12 the following year.

The DC-9-50 is the largest member of the DC-9/MD-80/MD-90/717 family to bear the DC-9 designation. Launched in mid 1973, the DC-9-50 is a further 2.44m (8ft 0in) longer than the DC-9-40, or 4.34m (14ft 3in) longer than the DC-9-30, and has maximum seating for 139 passengers. Delivered from August 1975, the DC-9-50 introduced a new look cabin interior designed to make more efficient use of the space available and give the impression of a more spacious interior, plus other improved features such as an improved anti skid braking system and quieter engines compared with the DC-9-40.
The DC-9-40 and -50 sold only in fairly modest numbers before the arrival of the further stretched MD-80 series. The largest DC-9-40 customer was SAS, while Northwest continues to operate a large fleet of DC-9-40s and -50s (it is currently the largest DC-9 operator in the world).
[/FONT]

Thanks for the info. Our MD88s carry 146 I believe, and the MD90s are close. I think our 737-700s will carry about 125 also. I think we get 6 or 7 737-700s this year, and will have a total of about 25. Their missions will be hot and high stuff (Quito, Ecuador, Reno, Vail, etc).

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PuffDriver]

Not even close.


Wrong, square. Your senior have a DB our senior do not. We have a 9 +2% DC. Our junior have a better career expectation than their equivalent at NWA. We are square re: DB and retirements.



Wow, is all I can say. I just never knew NWA was in so much trouble. Our A/c retirements have been planned. Compass, yup increasing. We held on to scope longer than DAL did. Have Comair, ASA, Skywest increased in size lately? Nice try, though. How did an airline 30% smaller than you make more money than any other legacy carrier last year? Save us, quick.


I am not talking about anybody saving anybody. Get the red out of your eyes for a second and look at the big picture of large airline stability. Simply put, the airline will be too big to allow failure. If that airline fails, reregulation is to follow. I am not talking about anybody saving anybody. Clearly, neither side needs saved. However, the dealt is too good to pass up over a few overinflated egos from the junior side of NWA hoping for some early outs to increase their career outlook. Same for Delta new-hires.

Coffee coming out my nose.


So what are you saying? That I am wrong and NWA did not ask to resume negotiations?

So your, "speculation is speculation" only applies to NWA. O.K., got it.

That is not speculation. Speculation is trying to figure out how many early retirees will actually go from NWA. The CEO of Delta describing the stand-alone plan of Delta and referring to a major order of widebodies is not speculation.


Looking objectively at the trend of our two airlines, you are more profitable and going towards less. We are less profitable and headed towards more.

Show me some numbers, Mr. Specualtion. Facts: we have more cash, better margins, less debt. FACTS, FACTS, FACTS!!!! .

I think that is what I said, except that your margins are going down. it is merely a rebuttal to the useless commentary that NWA is more profitable. You are so merely because the LCC have not worked their way into your hubs yet. it is a matter of time. perhaps we will revisit the merger then.




Not worth a little cash. PERIOD.

Fair enough, but it is likely that the deal will come back without the cash, go to arbitration, and you will likely lose anyway. Our new-hires are widebody f/os. Our 777 captains make more than your 747 captains. Precedent has shown that these are the controlling factors as of late. I guess we are likely just going to have to go through the "house burning down" phase after all.

Oh well.