Delta/NWA Seniority List Negotiation Tidbits

[Occam's Razor]

Not accurate information. Get in contact with your representatives/duty pilots. Lounges, phone, email...they are all out there. Find out for yourselves.

Ed

They're heading out there tonight.

 

[EdTeachLives!]

They're heading out there tonight.

Occam. For the most part you have a lot of great insight and info to add. This time I am going to venture that you might be getting some suspect information. The briefings from the reps consistantly includes information that indicates specifically no more negotiations.

IF any were to happen, it sounds like maybe leaving the commitees out of it and having some more rational open thinkers sit down with each other might be in order. Its too bad. It sounds as if it truly was a 1 + 1 = 3 deal and maybe then some.

Ed

 

[FDJ2]

The briefings from the reps consistantly includes information that indicates specifically no more negotiations.

Your rep was right, however things change. There has been further reflection by some and they want to reignite negotiations. Folks have been invited up North. There may have been a change of heart and a more realistic approach.

Let's see what happens.

 

[ExAF]

If in doubt...

Just follow the money. I don't think its over. Too much money involved for all concerned. Not just pilots.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam. For the most part you have a lot of great insight and info to add. This time I am going to venture that you might be getting some suspect information. The briefings from the reps consistantly includes information that indicates specifically no more negotiations.

Well, you know best. I've never deviated from my flight plan.

You?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Figured that they would come to their senses, but I hoped that they would not, at least not until this fall.

For the Delta new hires that got ER wide bodies in today's class, your career expecations are in serious jeopardy if this deal goes down without fences.

 

[Redmeat]

For the Delta new hires that got ER wide bodies in today's class, your career expecations are in serious jeopardy if this deal goes down without fences.

Is that you? Everyones gotta give on this deal bro.

 

[3ds]

Just follow the money. I don't think its over. Too much money involved for all concerned. Not just pilots.

agree. hope ALPA makes sure both sides get a bigger cut of that money. Consider the stock prices over the last month: announce merger talks and both stocks climb. Then turn the WHOLE THING (right) over to the pilot unions for permission and they can't agree on the deal, so the stock tumbles and analcysts forecast doom. Surely Pardus & co. have been monitoring the market very closely over this time and were buying and selling appropriately. Thanks to this very public 'fight' between dal and nwa pilots, they watched as the stocks almost doubled over a 2 month period. Now that both stock prices are back to the low teens, let's see how high they jump when a deal gets announced. Buy low, sell high... even dumb 'just labor' pilots get that one!

Hope the pilots get compensated for their role in this. What's a reasonable dollar amount for having one's future and livelihood tinkered with? Does it depend on DOH? Maybe. Don't know one way or the other.

(Thinking about it... one could argue that junior guys are young enough to 'recover' from such turmoil, while senior guys theoretically have a nice nest egg already saved up, so no compensation is required to anyone. Nah, they wouldn't try that one, right?).

 

[Superpilot92]

Figured that they would come to their senses, but I hoped that they would not, at least not until this fall.

For the Delta new hires that got ER wide bodies in today's class, your career expectations are in serious jeopardy if this deal goes down without fences.

Why do you continue to post stuff like that? You have no real idea what this would mean for a Newb at DAL or NWA. Its all speculation right now. While it may not be ideal it certainly could be worse. IMHO fly safe

 

[General Lee]

agree. hope ALPA makes sure both sides get a bigger cut of that money. Consider the stock prices over the last month: announce merger talks and both stocks climb. Then turn the WHOLE THING (right) over to the pilot unions for permission and they can't agree on the deal, so the stock tumbles and analcysts forecast doom. Surely Pardus & co. have been monitoring the market very closely over this time and were buying and selling appropriately. Thanks to this very public 'fight' between dal and nwa pilots, they watched as the stocks almost doubled over a 2 month period. Now that both stock prices are back to the low teens, let's see how high they jump when a deal gets announced. Buy low, sell high... even dumb 'just labor' pilots get that one!

Hope the pilots get compensated for their role in this. What's a reasonable dollar amount for having one's future and livelihood tinkered with? Does it depend on DOH? Maybe. Don't know one way or the other.

(Thinking about it... one could argue that junior guys are young enough to 'recover' from such turmoil, while senior guys theoretically have a nice nest egg already saved up, so no compensation is required to anyone. Nah, they wouldn't try that one, right?).

A 15% raise for NWA pilots, then 4% each year for the next 3 years. 100K in cash ($46K of that would fill 2009 401K, and the rest taxed), 12% DC fund for this year, and 1% added each of the next two years, and better work rules that would add 200-300 pilots without any growth, and no furlough protection. Does any of that sound appealling? How about a fair seniority list merger then? If your pension was threatened, you would lose about the same number of guys we did. We also parked a bunch of planes as our guys were leaving (737-200s/300s, 767-200s, MD11s), which didn't really help us much. You would have to take that into account.

Your Greenbook Merger Committee leader has to come off his DOH stance, or it will be no deal.

We'll see if any of this pans out. I would rather have NO merger than a bad one.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DAL737FO]

Why do you continue to post stuff like that? You have no real idea what this would mean for a Newb at DAL or NWA. Its all speculation right now. While it may not be ideal it certainly could be worse. IMHO fly safe

Let's see a new hire at DAL that goes directly to the right seat of the 767 intl now has to compete with new hires at NWA that were going directly to the right seat of the DC9 or possible the A320.

No I don't see how that could hurt them at all.

 

[nwaredtail]

Some of it sounds appealing, but we all know that contract improvements are temporary until gas hits $130 BBL or another attack, then right back to where we are now! I remember getting a 10.5% raise and then giving it back within 3 years and then some.

How about a fair seniority list merger then?DALPA's idea of fair was to have every DAL pilot move up considerably over the last few years (good for you!) and then move up a bunch when NWA guys retire. (BTW only 5 pilots have stayed past 60 out of over 30 that could have) NWA pilot's would get no credit over the next 10 years even though 70% of the pilots retiring would be NWA pilots? I know it evens out over the next 10-20, but who wants to be stagnant for 10 years?

If your pension was threatened, you would lose about the same number of guys we did.
But, it wasn't, so they didn't. That's a moot point. You have no idea how many guys would retire? NWA never had a lump sum option.

We also parked a bunch of planes as our guys were leaving (737-200s/300s, 767-200s, MD11s), which didn't really help us much. You would have to take that into account. Don't you think the NC and merger committee's know this?

Your Greenbook Merger Committee leader has to come off his DOH stance, or it will be no deal. That's a rumor, don't be so naive. We have a committee that works together, Laz doesn't have the power you state, believe me.

We'll see if any of this pans out. I would rather have NO merger than a bad one. You probably won't have a choice!

The fact of the matter is that NWA is the absolute best choice for a merger with DAL, CAL or even AMR with our current business model and we know it. More cash, less debt, better margins by a ton, 787 options, Fortress hubs, pension debt moot, etc. Anderson knows it, Steenland knows it. NWALPA knows it. Some DAL pilots are acting like we should be falling over ourselves to be saved "by DAL". After DALPA's seniority integration model made it's way through the ranks last week, the people who were "excited" about the contract improvements quickly calmed down when they realized that almost every NWA pilot would be a lot worse off on the seniority list. Will it be a better airline after a merger? Nobody knows, but it will take a long time to reap the benefits for the line employees

 

[Diesel-9]

That pretty much sums it up. Newbridge Agreement expires in about 8 weeks. Do you recall what it says?

 

[DAL737FO]

How about a fair seniority list merger then?DALPA's idea of fair was to have every DAL pilot move up considerably over the last few years (good for you!) and then move up a bunch when NWA guys retire. (BTW only 5 pilots have stayed past 60 out of over 30 that could have) NWA pilot's would get no credit over the next 10 years even though 70% of the pilots retiring would be NWA pilots? I know it evens out over the next 10-20, but who wants to be stagnant for 10 years?

After DALPA's seniority integration model made it's way through the ranks last week,

So let me get this straight,you only want to count the retirements for the next 10 years and not out farther than that? Why would that be? Because it fits your agenda. And what would be the seniority integration that was making the rounds? We finally heard what it was from our LEC reps this week and to tell you the truth I don't know how you couldn't consider it a windfall.

The integration that we were giving was a relative seniority where if you are at say 16% off the bottom now (my actual seniority) then you would be 16% off the bottom of the new airline.

I looked at your latest bids and someone with my relative seniority 16% off the bottom can hold block holder on the A320 or the DC9 and reserve on the 757. Compare that to here at Delta you would hold lineholder on the MD88, 767 Dom and International the 737-800 and Capt on the MD88 NYC. So without fences how again are you losing anything? This is a serious question. You already stated that the retirements even out eventually. I want someone to enlighten me, because from where I sit this is going to cause me to move backward.

 

[nwaredtail]

So let me get this straight,you only want to count the retirements for the next 10 years and not out farther than that? Why would that be? Because it fits your agenda. And what would be the seniority integration that was making the rounds? We finally heard what it was from our LEC reps this week and to tell you the truth I don't know how you couldn't consider it a windfall.

With your current model, NWA get no credit for the majority of the retirements over the next 10 years. Considering 70 plus% are NWA pilots, yeah, we would like to move up the 20-25% that we were expecting. Sorry if you can't comprehend that.


I looked at your latest bids and someone with my relative seniority 16% off the bottom can hold block holder on the A320 or the DC9 and reserve on the 757.

And in the next 5 years, that person would move up at least 20-25% at NWA, 0% at DAL except for some "announced" growth. WTF don't you get about that!

So without fences how again are you losing anything? This is a serious question. You already stated that the retirements even out eventually.

15 - 20 years is a lot of earning potential missed using DAL's model.

I want someone to enlighten me, because from where I sit this is going to cause me to move backward.

Yup, you are correct. If DAL wants NWA bad enough, you will move backwards at the combined carrier. That's part of being 16% from the bottom of any list.

Unless everyone is a bit unhappy, the pilot's won't agree without arbitration. Right now, DAL would not be unhappy.

Get Unhappy and we will talk.