Delta, Northwest Focus On Joint Pilot Contract

[PuffDriver]

ASA didn't require pilots to resign from their previous carriers....CMR did require it......Apples and Oranges.....The Delta pilots would never negotiate something for another pilot group without some "quids".....so why should anyone else do the same for them......

There were quids, except that JC thought he had better quids. He gambled and lost. So my reply is that, they shouldn't. It was a "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" deal. JC wanted a full body massage, we decided that we weren't "like that", and the fate of the Comair pilots has apparently been sealed.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You are such a joke. Let's address the "apples and oranges" thing. You can try to hide behind the Comair MEC chair's, excuse me former chair, coattails--which aren't very long--but all that was asked was support for Delta furloughees at Comair. he flatly refused, and went a step further in saying that indeed it may create "safety" concerns. Indeed, the policy was later changed, when all of a sudden, Comair's "leverage" evaporated. There is a monstrous difference between citing company policy and actively supporting such a policy.

OK, these grievances--remember according to you that you are correct on almost all accounts--all of which I later prove to be untrue.

The Shuttle grievance and the pass grievance. First, oh prognosticator, tell me what the end result of said grievances was since you seem to know sooooo much. i'll be waiting for that answer.

Second, both grievance were brought up solely as violations of the Delta PWA. There was no consulting needed as nobody was affected by the Delta PWA except Delta pilots. In the passes, Delta pilots are not allowed to have a reduction of their online pass privileges as a whole during the tenure of the contract. With the addition of ASA and Comair pilots to the mix of DOH passes, that aspect of contract violation came into question. The remedy sought was not revocation of passes for ASA and Comair. It was monetary damage restoration, although in fairness, the company may have elected to revoke the passes should the grievance had gone through AND the Delta pilots had come out on top. Now, and this is a hint, I haven't seen any money from the deal, and Comair still has those privileges, so please tell me hat happened to that grievance? <whisper>hint-it was dropped.

Now for the shuttle grievance. Pretty simple really, and many grievances go this way: it was a clear violation and the company agreed to cease and desist.

Now, tell me again where you are correct in this arena. The fact is that you pretty much don't know jack, and it is confirmed by your fellow pilots opinions of you as they make their way towards the pinnacles of their careers as well as your mockery of trying to make mountains our of mole hills with grievances that do not concern you nor contain matter that you thought they did.

Hook, line, and sinker

You lost both grievances.....You left out the BAE 146 grievance against the ASA 146s....But you just made my point for me.....You and your fellow Delta pilots and the Delta MEC didn't care how these grievances affected ASA and CMR pilots......Then when you need help, you came groveling....Your pilot group has never given a d@mn about anyone else....

You are right that you are free to file grievances that "do not concern" us according to you, but then don't expect any help from me.....With the DMEC it's always been a one-way street......

 

[PuffDriver]

And you know very well that had the CMR MEC introduced a resolution supporting the hiring of DAL furloughs without resigning their seniority numbers that is all it would have taken. Management may not have done it, but the sentiment would have been there, and it would not have cost a cent, except for the paper it was written on. But they didn't, and now the damage is done. Long memories Joe.

It's funny isn't it? It's as if as long as he keeps saying it that it will someday Super-man itself counter-clockwise itself around the world, turn back time, and become true.

FWIW, you are correct on all of your accounts, and the numbers back it up. Our little Cessna guy claims that Comair pilots do not get hired because the long standing promote-from-within company wants to save money. Yet very few Mesa, Mesaba, Great Lakes, etc pilots have been hired which would cost us nary a dime. Meanwhile, a huge mass of ASA pilots have been hired. Methinks that somebody is in SEVERE denial with regard to their incorrectness.

Meanwhile, those who "would never apply" to Delta and go to interviews simply to mock the interviewers should ask themselves a rhetorical question. The majors have gotten creamed over the past couple of years with regards to pay cuts, pension terminations, work rule changes which closed the gap dramatically with the regionals in all aspects, yet junior to senior from the regionals are still flocking to the majors. The questions is Why? This ought to be interesting.

 

[JoeMerchant]

There were quids, except that JC thought he had better quids. He gambled and lost. So my reply is that, they shouldn't. It was a "you scratch my back I'll scratch yours" deal. JC wanted a full body massage, we decided that we weren't "like that", and the fate of the Comair pilots has apparently been sealed.

This is a outright lie, just like the one about the PID being a "DOH seniority grab".....Your MEC cannot be trusted......What "quids" were in it for CMR?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Meanwhile, those who "would never apply" to Delta and go to interviews simply to mock the interviewers should ask themselves a rhetorical question. The majors have gotten creamed over the past couple of years with regards to pay cuts, pension terminations, work rule changes which closed the gap dramatically with the regionals in all aspects, yet junior to senior from the regionals are still flocking to the majors. The questions is Why? This ought to be interesting.

It doesn't make sense to me.....but I guess they think the grass is greener....and they want to be a "real" airline pilot....I don't want to spend the next 8 years trying to get back to even in the $ column....That's assuming there aren't more cutbacks......

 

[DrewBlows]

You have proposed a reasonable solution regarding intergration.

I wish that you had been as vocal about a reasonable solution during the Delta Furloughs.

William

PS - I was never furloughed.

I doubt anyone would have listened to me since I didn't work for Comair at that time. I doubt anyone will listen to me now since I no longer work at Comair. Hell, no one listened to me when I did work at Comair. I digress.

I was furloughed from Comair in 2006. During that time most pilots stopped picking up open time, some didn't and I let them know very bluntly how I felt about that. It goes without saying I was very angry about the situation and very angry at the individuals who picked up the open time and thus helped the company keep us on the street.

Some time later I had the misfortune of finding the most vocal advocate of picking up open time on the same four day trip. I wasn't very pleased with the situation, so my options were to call in sick, fly the trip, not talk to him, and be miserable for four days, or fly the trip, make small talk, and have a decent time. Calling in sick would have cost me sick time that was better spent somewhere else not to mention possibly my job for abusing sick calls (this was after all, Comair). I could have spent the four days staring out the window, but that would have cost me my sanity, so I decided to talk to this guy and have a decent time. I discovered he wasn't the monster I had made him out to be in my mind, but I certainly didn't forget what he had done. After the trip we went our separate ways and I don't think we ever spoke to one another again. Fine by me.

If you've made it this far you are probably wondering what this has to do with the relationship between Delta and Comair pilots. It's really no different. In both cases there was an emotional decision to be made which would have been bad for business. In my case I choose the best business decision, this certainly won't happen in the Delta/Comair case, as mainline pilots would never consider making regional pilots part of their lists for a lot of emotional reasons in spite of good business. I think this is unfortunate.

Union leaders are no different than most business leaders and politicians in this country. As opportunities arise all look for the short term gain in lieu of long term investments.

A rare opportunity has arisen where Delta and NWA pilots have once again found a little leverage. Instead of shoring up the foundations of their house (scope) they will take the short term bonus (equity and small pay raise). The deal will go though, pilots will be furloughed, and when negotiations come around again, they will again have no leverage because half of their flying is and will continue to be outsourced.

In my opinion the best case scenario with the current strategy is that political pressure will force NWA/Delta to maintain status quo long enough for the replacement, for any aircraft that will be parked, to come on line. The problem with this strategy is it relies not on pilots but politicians, who we all know are influenced by a variety of things which generally have little to do with the best interest of their electorate.

Good luck to everyone involved.

 

[PuffDriver]

You lost both grievances.....You left out the BAE 146 grievance against the ASA 146s....But you just made my point for me.....You and your fellow Delta pilots and the Delta MEC didn't care how these grievances affected ASA and CMR pilots......Then when you need help, you came groveling....Your pilot group has never given a d@mn about anyone else....

You are right that you are free to file grievances that "do not concern" us according to you, but then don't expect any help from me.....With the DMEC it's always been a one-way street......

So outside of the shuttle grievance, which was settled in our favor BTW, nobody from the ASA and Comair were "harmed". That's point 1. Point 2 is that the pot is calling the kettle black. I recall something about conflict of interests on the MEC level at ASA with girls and guys in great relations, but thats really just gossip although nonetheless selfish. Point 3 is that the Delta MEC is exactly that: assigned to protect the interests of the Delta pilots. Doing anything to the contrary would result in lawsuits and expulsion from the union. Just as the ASA MEC is assign to protect the interests of the ASA pilots, and the Comair MEC to protect the interests of the Comair pilots. Cooperation does not necessarily conflict with those interests, as shown on several occasions between MECs of all shapes and sizes and countries. Indeed the Delta MEC has the wisdom to even now secure relationships with the pilots of NWA, Air France, KLM et al in view of the coming globalization. They also attempted this cooperation--which you call groveling--in asking a certain MEC chair to write a short memo expressing his support of hiring Delta pilots without seniority resignation in exchange for preferential treatment when the worm turned. not only was this offer rebuffed, but attempted to be exploited with further gain. As a result, mutual cooperation went out the window. The truly funny thing is the crow that had to be eaten once the power play fizzled out less fanfare than an M80 with a bad fuse.

Would the ASA MEC file a grievance if Delta pilots were suddenly trained as captains on 70 seaters, and placed in ASA airplanes at the helm, although it would harm the careers of Delta pilots in those cockpits? You bet your patootie they would, and they would be quite justified in doing it. I really doubt that the Delta pilots would have sour grapes over it either.

Its just like shooting fish in a barrel

 

[JoeMerchant]

Drew.....that about sums it up.....Well said!

 

[PuffDriver]

This is a outright lie, just like the one about the PID being a "DOH seniority grab".....Your MEC cannot be trusted......What "quids" were in it for CMR?

The quids for Comair were preferential treatment when the tide shifted, which it did, and at hich time it was indeed the Comair MEC who was grovelng--as you say.

As far as the lies, all I can say is that they were outright lies being told by everybody in the crew rooms when these guys were spouting them. Give it up son. Your reindeer games have ended.

edited to change than to then

 

[JoeMerchant]

Than it is an outright lie being told by everybody in the crew rooms when these guys were spouting them. Give it up son. Your reindeer games have ended.

It is a lie....didn't happen and DOH would never happen.....The DAL MEC invented the DOH lie to scare rank and file Delta pilots about the PID....

You didn't answer what "quids" were being offered to CMR....That is another revisionist history lie......

 

[PuffDriver]

I doubt anyone would have listened to me since I didn't work for Comair at that time. I doubt anyone will listen to me now since I no longer work at Comair. Hell, no one listened to me when I did work at Comair. I digress.

I was furloughed from Comair in 2006. During that time most pilots stopped picking up open time, some didn't and I let them know very bluntly how I felt about that. It goes without saying I was very angry about the situation and very angry at the individuals who picked up the open time and thus helped the company keep us on the street.

Some time later I had the misfortune of finding the most vocal advocate of picking up open time on the same four day trip. I wasn't very pleased with the situation, so my options were to call in sick, fly the trip, not talk to him, and be miserable for four days, or fly the trip, make small talk, and have a decent time. Calling in sick would have cost me sick time that was better spent somewhere else not to mention possibly my job for abusing sick calls (this was after all, Comair). I could have spent the four days staring out the window, but that would have cost me my sanity, so I decided to talk to this guy and have a decent time. I discovered he wasn't the monster I had made him out to be in my mind, but I certainly didn't forget what he had done. After the trip we went our separate ways and I don't think we ever spoke to one another again. Fine by me.

If you've made it this far you are probably wondering what this has to do with the relationship between Delta and Comair pilots. It's really no different. In both cases there was an emotional decision to be made which would have been bad for business. In my case I choose the best business decision, this certainly won't happen in the Delta/Comair case, as mainline pilots would never consider making regional pilots part of their lists for a lot of emotional reasons in spite of good business. I think this is unfortunate.

Union leaders are no different than most business leaders and politicians in this country. As opportunities arise all look for the short term gain in lieu of long term investments.

A rare opportunity has arisen where Delta and NWA pilots have once again found a little leverage. Instead of shoring up the foundations of their house (scope) they will take the short term bonus (equity and small pay raise). The deal will go though, pilots will be furloughed, and when negotiations come around again, they will again have no leverage because half of their flying is and will continue to be outsourced.

In my opinion the best case scenario with the current strategy is that political pressure will force NWA/Delta to maintain status quo long enough for the replacement, for any aircraft that will be parked, to come on line. The problem with this strategy is it relies not on pilots but politicians, who we all know are influenced by a variety of things which generally have little to do with the best interest of their electorate.

Good luck to everyone involved.

I like what you wrote. I will say that when you get hired, you agree to the terms of the contract. Unless the terms say that in the event of furloughs, nobody picks up time, you really don't have much to say. FWIW, I agree with you that it is a crummy thing to do, and I don't do it. When there is a concerted effort, however, and of the magnitude of a Delta operation, you risk getting spanked by a judge, which is exactly what happened to the Delta pilots. i still have to stare at that disclaimer every time I sign on to the web site.

As far as the NWA thingy, you are correct, it would appear as if there is leverage. HOW MCUH leverage is subject to debate. how it will be spent is subject to another. Scope may very well be a part of it, although I doubt it will be to bring our regionals on our list. You talk about business. What you call good/bad business could be construed the other way with a different argument. For example: Airlines need feed from smaller cities for connecting traffic. Connecting increases cost. The lower the connecting costs, the greater the connecting profits. So, to a degree, it behooves mainlines pilots to keep those costs low, with the leverage that those jobs will eventually be vacated to higher paying jobs at their airline. I don't necessarily agree with doing it that way, but it IS indeed the way it has been before i even came into the biz, and seems to be the way the status quo is determined to carry on.

I would imagine the leverage will be used to bring the NWA guys par, increase the Delta side, job security protections, and perhaps to take back some scope.

Nicely said, sir.

 

[JoeMerchant]

You talk about business. What you call good/bad business could be construed the other way with a different argument. For example: Airlines need feed from smaller cities for connecting traffic. Connecting increases cost. The lower the connecting costs, the greater the connecting profits. So, to a degree, it behooves mainlines pilots to keep those costs low, with the leverage that those jobs will eventually be vacated to higher paying jobs at their airline. I don't necessarily agree with doing it that way, but it IS indeed the way it has been before i even came into the biz, and seems to be the way the status quo is determined to carry on.

I disagree with just about everything Puff says, but this point needs to be emphasized for those of you who think this is some big fraternal brotherhood.....He is absolutely correct here...The mainline MEC gets bargaining "credit" so to speak if they help management keep the regional costs lower......In other words it is more money for them.....

At least Puff admits that this is done......

 

[PuffDriver]

It doesn't make sense to me.....but I guess they think the grass is greener....and they want to be a "real" airline pilot....I don't want to spend the next 8 years trying to get back to even in the $ column....That's assuming there aren't more cutbacks......

As one who actually knows why they have made jumps, becoming a "real" airline pilot hasn't been mentioned once. many of them are closing in on their second year, at which time their pay will be 81/hr. Their work rules are a VAST improvement, their airline operates in a much more organized manner, they enjoy work much more, in spite of the constant doomsdayers of cutbacks Delta is hiring as much as it can possibly handle, and has publicly expressed support for all of its employees in the merger. Retirement, oh yes there is still some. At ASA, you have the possibility of some 75% of 6% as long as you contribute as well. At Delta, its 11% without you contributing a dime, and likely on its way up. They tell me that even with the gutting, it is a vastly superior place to work.

Of course, they are probably lying. Delta pilots won't do anything for them anyway. Delta is cutting back. Blah, blah, blah. Not to even mention that when the lists are merged that they will be junior to people who they used to be senior. Gosh, you're right, why would they leave?!?

 

[PuffDriver]

I disagree with just about everything Puff says, but this point needs to be emphasized for those of you who think this is some big fraternal brotherhood.....He is absolutely correct here...The mainline MEC gets bargaining "credit" so to speak if they help management keep the regional costs lower......In other words it is more money for them.....

At least Puff admits that this is done......

I don't know how it is done, for I am not a negotiator. I merely pointed out that there are costs to merging the lists that people don't think of, and that you should be careful what you wish for. Quite frankly, you don't know how it is done either, nor will you--which really doesn't differentiate it from any of your other opinions on here. keeping costs low also includes things such as single-engine taxi, running an on-time operation to minimize misconnects, not losing customers due to exhorbitant lateness without even so much as one PA, all of which are vastly lacking at some of our commuter airlines.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't know how it is done, for I am not a negotiator. I merely pointed out that there are costs to merging the lists that people don't think of, and that you should be careful what you wish for. Quite frankly, you don't know how it is done either, nor will you--which really doesn't differentiate it from any of your other opinions on here.

Actually I do understand how it is done....I've been thru the George Meany negotiating training courtesy of ALPA and have been involved in contract negotiations....

http://www.georgemeany.org/

You are right about the bargaining credits that are taken when mainlines are able to keep the regional costs low.....Simply put, it leaves more money in the pie for the mainline group to negotiate for.....

Long term, it comes back to bite the mainline however as the whipsaw puts downward pressure on both pay and jobs at the mainline....It becomes a viscious circle.......

This goes hand in hand with what DrewBlows just pointed out regarding short term gains vs. long term losses........

You were right with what you said.....Which is one of the reasons I don't trust ALPA.......

 

[JoeMerchant]

...running an on-time operation to minimize misconnects, not losing customers due to exhorbitant lateness without even so much as one PA, all of which are vastly lacking at some of our commuter airlines.

Don't worry....I make PAs in ATL and give blame where it belongs......When the ATL station causes us to be late, I remind everyone that ASA doesn't operate the station.....Delta Air Lines does.....:laugh:

 

[PuffDriver]

Actually I do understand how it is done....I've been thru the George Meany negotiating training courtesy of ALPA and have been involved in contract negotiations....

http://www.georgemeany.org/

for ASA. May I commend you on all of your success. that little certificate they gave you and a couple buck will buy you some coffee and a job that most of your contemporaries have left.

Sorry, you are not in a position to understand the macro implications of trade offs of single seniority lists within a brand. My MEC is. Also, it is but a blip on a very full radar screen for us, where it seems to be the only blip in your world. Neither one of us in in possession of the big picture, so we are left with where we are: one group with less of a compensation package demanding more of the pie, and one group with more of a compensation package demanding more of the pie, controlling negotiations of the actual company, history of the major/regional relationship, and perhaps most importantly a management that is dead set against it. So tell me again how a flow-through does not address the concerns of reasonable regional pilots. This ought to be good.

 

[PuffDriver]

Don't worry....I make PAs in ATL and give blame where it belongs......When the ATL station causes us to be late, I remind everyone that ASA doesn't operate the station.....Delta Air Lines does.....:laugh:

That cracks me up that you continually try and switch topic when you get owned.

 

[JoeMerchant]

1. I wasn't addressing the cost of a single list to negotiate.....rather I was addressing the issue you correctly raised regarding the cost/benefit to the mainline to keep regional costs low.....You brought it up and you were correct...The mainline MECs conspire with management to keep regional costs low.....It benefits BOTH of them..........or at least they think it does.....

2. A flowthrough benefits the mainline more than the regional....It gives the mainline pilots something they don't currently have.....A job in the event of furloughs with superseniority over the regional pilots....The regional pilot gets what he or she ALREADY has.....the ability to start over again at the bottom of the mainline seniority list....They can do that anyway by applying and getting hired.....

My concern is preventing mainline pilots to come in with superseniority.....and so far we have been able to avoid that at ASA.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

That cracks me up that you continually try and switch topic when you get owned.

What cracks you up? The fact is, Delta causes most of the delays in ATL....They are the rampers, the gate agents, and are responsible for servicing the aircraft.....

We aren't owned by Delta anymore.....IMO we are owned by a better company now......