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Delta, Northwest Focus On Joint Pilot Contract

  • Thread starter Thread starter Tantrum
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...running an on-time operation to minimize misconnects, not losing customers due to exhorbitant lateness without even so much as one PA, all of which are vastly lacking at some of our commuter airlines.

Don't worry....I make PAs in ATL and give blame where it belongs......When the ATL station causes us to be late, I remind everyone that ASA doesn't operate the station.....Delta Air Lines does.....:laugh:
 
Actually I do understand how it is done....I've been thru the George Meany negotiating training courtesy of ALPA and have been involved in contract negotiations....

http://www.georgemeany.org/

for ASA. May I commend you on all of your success. that little certificate they gave you and a couple buck will buy you some coffee and a job that most of your contemporaries have left.

Sorry, you are not in a position to understand the macro implications of trade offs of single seniority lists within a brand. My MEC is. Also, it is but a blip on a very full radar screen for us, where it seems to be the only blip in your world. Neither one of us in in possession of the big picture, so we are left with where we are: one group with less of a compensation package demanding more of the pie, and one group with more of a compensation package demanding more of the pie, controlling negotiations of the actual company, history of the major/regional relationship, and perhaps most importantly a management that is dead set against it. So tell me again how a flow-through does not address the concerns of reasonable regional pilots. This ought to be good.
 
Don't worry....I make PAs in ATL and give blame where it belongs......When the ATL station causes us to be late, I remind everyone that ASA doesn't operate the station.....Delta Air Lines does.....:laugh:

That cracks me up that you continually try and switch topic when you get owned.
 
1. I wasn't addressing the cost of a single list to negotiate.....rather I was addressing the issue you correctly raised regarding the cost/benefit to the mainline to keep regional costs low.....You brought it up and you were correct...The mainline MECs conspire with management to keep regional costs low.....It benefits BOTH of them..........or at least they think it does.....

2. A flowthrough benefits the mainline more than the regional....It gives the mainline pilots something they don't currently have.....A job in the event of furloughs with superseniority over the regional pilots....The regional pilot gets what he or she ALREADY has.....the ability to start over again at the bottom of the mainline seniority list....They can do that anyway by applying and getting hired.....

My concern is preventing mainline pilots to come in with superseniority.....and so far we have been able to avoid that at ASA.....
 
That cracks me up that you continually try and switch topic when you get owned.

What cracks you up? The fact is, Delta causes most of the delays in ATL....They are the rampers, the gate agents, and are responsible for servicing the aircraft.....

We aren't owned by Delta anymore.....IMO we are owned by a better company now......
 
Sorry, you are not in a position to understand the macro implications of trade offs of single seniority lists within a brand. My MEC is. Also, it is but a blip on a very full radar screen for us, where it seems to be the only blip in your world. Neither one of us in in possession of the big picture, so we are left with where we are: one group with less of a compensation package demanding more of the pie, and one group with more of a compensation package demanding more of the pie, controlling negotiations of the actual company, history of the major/regional relationship, and perhaps most importantly a management that is dead set against it. So tell me again how a flow-through does not address the concerns of reasonable regional pilots. This ought to be good.

Dont'cha see there, Joe, we's just dumb hillbilly commuter pilots. We's don't understand all that high level mumbo jumbo they's there mainline pilots understand. Hell, nun of us's even been to college! They's all got advanced degrees, you know. You better just leave those there Almighty All knowing, Double Breasted Delta Pilots 'lone, 'cause they's got them the Big Picture that our tiny little hillbilly commuter pilots brains can't understand.
 
I like what you wrote. I will say that when you get hired, you agree to the terms of the contract. Unless the terms say that in the event of furloughs, nobody picks up time, you really don't have much to say.

I understand the legalities of the contract (which were changed after I got hired, but that's another story). The contract says nothing about using my influence to pressure people not to pick up open time, which is precisely what I did. It's not a concerted effort for someone who is not even on the seniority list to petition (informally) for people to avoid open time. We're on the same page on this one, I just wanted to expand a little.



As far as the NWA thingy, you are correct, it would appear as if there is leverage. HOW MCUH leverage is subject to debate. how it will be spent is subject to another. Scope may very well be a part of it, although I doubt it will be to bring our regionals on our list. You talk about business. What you call good/bad business could be construed the other way with a different argument. For example: Airlines need feed from smaller cities for connecting traffic. Connecting increases cost. The lower the connecting costs, the greater the connecting profits. So, to a degree, it behooves mainlines pilots to keep those costs low, with the leverage that those jobs will eventually be vacated to higher paying jobs at their airline. I don't necessarily agree with doing it that way, but it IS indeed the way it has been before i even came into the biz, and seems to be the way the status quo is determined to carry on.

This is the strategy that has led to the current situation. Airline pilots have essentially no power and when they are given a little leverage in the form of a merger that a lot of people really want to happen, they look for a short term gain. Mainline pilots are mistaken if they think keeping regional pilots separate and regional wages low is in their interest. Of course it is in the companies interest to keep connecting wages low, it is also in the companies interest to keep 777 pilots wages low and they will use all of their means to work toward that goal.

In the 80's: "We don't want turbo-props, they will just deflate L1011 wages."

90's: "We don't want Comair to have CRJ's, but they won't last anyway, there is no point of giving up any pay to get them on property."

2000's: "Crap, those CRJ's have really caught on, but as long as they are only 50 seaters...and a few 70 seaters, it will be okay. We don't want to give anything up to keep them."

Bankruptcy: "Jesus! This really sucks, try to keep anything we can. Give them 76 seaters if it means saving something."

Now: "Yeah, we have a little leverage, but we need to get back some of what we lost in bankruptcy. Those RJs will go away eventually anyway."

2010's: "Take it back! Give them DC-9 replacements to pay for it."

2020's: "Give 'em the 757 replacement if it means keeping 787 wages."

2030's: Retired airline pilot: "Remember when Delta used to actually fly airplanes? I never thought ALPA would become so powerless Delta would just replace them. Who could have seen that coming?"



I would imagine the leverage will be used to bring the NWA guys par, increase the Delta side, job security protections, and perhaps to take back some scope.

I agree. However, I don't think this is the best use of leverage. In my opinion, scope is the basis of what an airline union must use to gain power. With power comes better contracts.
 
Dont'cha see there, Joe, we's just dumb hillbilly commuter pilots. We's don't understand all that high level mumbo jumbo they's there mainline pilots understand. Hell, nun of us's even been to college! They's all got advanced degrees, you know. You better just leave those there Almighty All knowing, Double Breasted Delta Pilots 'lone, 'cause they's got them the Big Picture that our tiny little hillbilly commuter pilots brains can't understand.

Don't worry JP......someday you too can be a real airline pilot if you keep working on it....
 
Dont'cha see there, Joe, we's just dumb hillbilly commuter pilots. We's don't understand all that high level mumbo jumbo they's there mainline pilots understand. Hell, nun of us's even been to college! They's all got advanced degrees, you know. You better just leave those there Almighty All knowing, Double Breasted Delta Pilots 'lone, 'cause they's got them the Big Picture that our tiny little hillbilly commuter pilots brains can't understand.

That's all you have, the self-inflicted martyrism. i fully admit that I don't know the bargaining practices coupled with macro-economics of regional and major flying. What i am saying is that Joe doesn't either, and that the MEC does. YOU certainly don't either, but your invaluable addition to the conversation is noted.
 
I understand the legalities of the contract (which were changed after I got hired, but that's another story). The contract says nothing about using my influence to pressure people not to pick up open time, which is precisely what I did. It's not a concerted effort for someone who is not even on the seniority list to petition (informally) for people to avoid open time. We're on the same page on this one, I just wanted to expand a little.





This is the strategy that has led to the current situation. Airline pilots have essentially no power and when they are given a little leverage in the form of a merger that a lot of people really want to happen, they look for a short term gain. Mainline pilots are mistaken if they think keeping regional pilots separate and regional wages low is in their interest. Of course it is in the companies interest to keep connecting wages low, it is also in the companies interest to keep 777 pilots wages low and they will use all of their means to work toward that goal.

In the 80's: "We don't want turbo-props, they will just deflate L1011 wages."

90's: "We don't want Comair to have CRJ's, but they won't last anyway, there is no point of giving up any pay to get them on property."

2000's: "Crap, those CRJ's have really caught on, but as long as they are only 50 seaters...and a few 70 seaters, it will be okay. We don't want to give anything up to keep them."

Bankruptcy: "Jesus! This really sucks, try to keep anything we can. Give them 76 seaters if it means saving something."

Now: "Yeah, we have a little leverage, but we need to get back some of what we lost in bankruptcy. Those RJs will go away eventually anyway."

2010's: "Take it back! Give them DC-9 replacements to pay for it."

2020's: "Give 'em the 757 replacement if it means keeping 787 wages."

2030's: Retired airline pilot: "Remember when Delta used to actually fly airplanes? I never thought ALPA would become so powerless Delta would just replace them. Who could have seen that coming?"





I agree. However, I don't think this is the best use of leverage. In my opinion, scope is the basis of what an airline union must use to gain power. With power comes better contracts.

That all may be a bit melodramatic for my taste, but I get what you are saying. I will say that under our current agreement, 76 seats goes down to 70 immediately should 1 pilot get furloughed. it's not much, but throws a gigantic monkey wrench into that 1st class configuration that Delta so desperately desires on a clearly inferior product.

Your opinion is noted with regard to the use of leverage. I will say again that nobody is nearer to this company's financials that our company negotiators, and none of us are qualified to actually back up their assertions on this particular topic. I have spoken with our negotiators and their claims are compelling. They will not be posted here.
 
1. I wasn't addressing the cost of a single list to negotiate.....rather I was addressing the issue you correctly raised regarding the cost/benefit to the mainline to keep regional costs low.....You brought it up and you were correct...The mainline MECs conspire with management to keep regional costs low.....It benefits BOTH of them..........or at least they think it does.....

2. A flowthrough benefits the mainline more than the regional....It gives the mainline pilots something they don't currently have.....A job in the event of furloughs with superseniority over the regional pilots....The regional pilot gets what he or she ALREADY has.....the ability to start over again at the bottom of the mainline seniority list....They can do that anyway by applying and getting hired.....

My concern is preventing mainline pilots to come in with superseniority.....and so far we have been able to avoid that at ASA.....


1) You have no proof of this, and you are out of your league in such a discussion. You are simply not in possession of the figures. Neither am I. there are more costs in regionals, and other issues believe it or not, than regional pilot costs.

2) That is not the way all flowthroughs have worked out. That is not the way the Delta flow through needed to work out. If your concern is for protecting your little turf, then you are not really interested in solving the problem--and that makes you no more or less selfish than those you accuse. There is a whole other side with a whole other perception, with pilots who have a much broader wealth of experience through all facets of aviation on a much greater scale. My betting money is on them.
 
What cracks you up? The fact is, Delta causes most of the delays in ATL....They are the rampers, the gate agents, and are responsible for servicing the aircraft.....

We aren't owned by Delta anymore.....IMO we are owned by a better company now......


that wasn't the owned I was referring to. The same gate agents, ground staff are working the flights still, and are doing a much better job under their current employer, Delta, rather than their former, ASA. Nonetheless, without staff, yours or ours you have no operation in Atlanta to give you your paycheck. Even more nonetheless, it is a very miniscule part of the very large argument from which you keep diverting.
 
I will say that under our current agreement, 76 seats goes down to 70 immediately should 1 pilot get furloughed. it's not much, but throws a gigantic monkey wrench into that 1st class configuration that Delta so desperately desires on a clearly inferior product.
They could put a pair of the new lie flat business elite seats and go with a three class configuration :laugh:

I understand the "flow through" Mesaba has only allows the same number that have flowed up to flow back down and NWA has not taken any of the Mesaba pilots. One List is better for mainline pilots too - not that I'm expecting it to happen.
 

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