Delta LOA 51

[johnsonrod]

Yes, lets be realistic! I am now looking at your payrates from the contract signed on 5/1/96. A senior (12 yr.) 737 Cpt. was earning $148 an hour now its $134. And I am taking the current rates from the airline pilot central website which may not contain the cuts yet. A 12 year 757 Cpt. in 96 was earning $177 an hour now its $155. I wish I could find the payrates from the contract before the one signed in 96. I would assume around 1992 or so, and I bet you were paid more nearly 20 years ago, dollar for dollar, not even considering the cost of living increases that occur year over year. It's not just Delta it's everyone who is folding and turning this profession into another run of the mill job.

Even SWA's rate was $140 an hour based on a contract signed 8/31/94..12 years ago!! Even they were paid more than you guys are now.



Considering every house in the neighborhood is burning down all around you, I don't know. What really needs to be addressed is how to turn a profit. People are flying in record numbers and load factors are higher than ever before, and we are continuing to take concessions in this profession! Why?? If the airlines can't make money in the best of times..(now) they never will be able to.



And here in lies a majority of the problem. The disease which permeates this industry which is the RJ was allowed to run rampant from the start. And guess who started it? You mainline boys were too good for those jets and wouldn't have anyone from your list fly those toys huh? Every mainline pilot group had the power when these things were first coming out to fly them yourselves. It was the mid to late 90s and most companies were earning money hand over fist giving you the power. How could you all not know that your flying would ultimately be outsourced. Just consider all the routes that were flown by the F100, DC9, 727, 737, that are now exclusively RJ and will never go back to mainline. Sure the military boys might not like going to the RJ when getting on with AA, DAL, UAL, and the rest, but they would be on the seniority list of a career airline and in a few years they could be flying the narrowbodies. I don't think any of us purely civilian guys would have a problem with that.





Yes, the bigger picture was clear in 1993, but I won't rehash what I just said. This all reminds me of the when Gen. Sherman of the union army proceeded to burn Atlanta and the rest of the south to the ground. With airline management being the Union and we as pilots being the rebels beaten back into submission and never being heard from again.

Again, a lot of big talk but no realistic suggestions or potential solutions... Where are your facts or proposals for how the TA should have been structured that would have appeased EVERYBODY? I don't hear any good/realistic ideas...

What would you do to appease the banks/lessors? What would you do to create a sustainable career for the different employee groups at Delta - something that would make everyone happy? Do you really think a prolonged strike would have benefitted the airline and improved its negotiating position with creditors? The TA could have been a lot worse on the pilot group...

Again, I'd love to hear some specifics from you and the others (737 Pylt, PCL 128, Avi8tn, etc.) versus just lame generalities and vague statements...

 

[General Lee]

An article in the Cincy Enquirer reports that a side agreement was reached with the retired pilots wherein they get $650M to drop their objections. Is this separate from what the active pilots are due if the pension is terminated? Anybody know anyhting about an agreement with the retired pilots?

I don't think they get $650 million. I read somewhere that they got $9 million, but that doesn't really make sense. I do know there is some sort of agreement, and the PBGC is looking for their own equity stake probably before they will sign off. They did that with UAL too.


Bye bye--General Lee

 

[Mach 80]

I don't understand why the pilots at the legacy carriers are agreeing to pay cuts which are so far below the rates at the largest "low cost" carrier. They shouldn't have gone one cent below the SWA pay rates, but they did. Way below.

 

[General Lee]

I don't understand why the pilots at the legacy carriers are agreeing to pay cuts which are so far below the rates at the largest "low cost" carrier. They shouldn't have gone one cent below the SWA pay rates, but they did. Way below.

Mach,

When your airline is profitable, you can ask for better pay. Southwest deserves to have the highest paid 737 pilots, and when they asked for their new pay rates, other airlines like DL still had their high 737 rates. So, Southwest pilots saw our higher rates and asked for more, which they could do since SW was doing well. After they received their better rates, ours tumbled due to our weak financial position. It was all timing, and the SW guys deserve it for working for a successful all 737 airline. If we become profitbale again we will have a better chance to try to raise our rates. That is the way it goes.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Bringupthebird]

Mach,

When your airline is profitable, you can ask for better pay. Southwest deserves to have the highest paid 737 pilots, and when they asked for their new pay rates, other airlines like DL still had their high 737 rates. So, Southwest pilots saw our higher rates and asked for more, which they could do since SW was doing well. After they received their better rates, ours tumbled due to our weak financial position. It was all timing, and the SW guys deserve it for working for a successful all 737 airline. If we become profitbale again we will have a better chance to try to raise our rates. That is the way it goes.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Not exactly. One airline stuck to it's core business and did well. The other airline got itself in over it's head buying every RJ it could get it's hands on and then politely asked the pilots to pay for them, which they willingly obliged. So DAL management sees the pilots as a source of venture capital that they will likely never have to pay back. Since the "low hanging fruit" is in the pilot's wallets, it is unlikely that the pilots will have any chance to raise their rates. They have helped perpetuate a death spiral of wages that will come around to bite them again, but many of the pilots will have retired by then, leaving those remaining to deal with the consequences of their cowardice.

 

[FlyingSig]

Ah yes. Finally we get down to the important issues!

Actually, yes, the TA does adress jumpseat issues. Delta pilots can now sit on the flight attendant jump seat if there's no FA waiting to use it and the cockpit jumpseat is taken.

As far as flowback, yup got that too if you work for CAL, NWA, or Alaska (in addition to AAL and SWA who are already on the list) effective immediately and to be negotiated with USAir and UAL by Jan '07.

 

[General Lee]

Not exactly. One airline stuck to it's core business and did well. The other airline got itself in over it's head buying every RJ it could get it's hands on and then politely asked the pilots to pay for them, which they willingly obliged. So DAL management sees the pilots as a source of venture capital that they will likely never have to pay back. Since the "low hanging fruit" is in the pilot's wallets, it is unlikely that the pilots will have any chance to raise their rates. They have helped perpetuate a death spiral of wages that will come around to bite them again, but many of the pilots will have retired by then, leaving those remaining to deal with the consequences of their cowardice.

Looks like you do need to retire old man, and atleast by age 60. Most of DL management, the ones who mainly got us in this squeeze, are GONE. Grinstein wants to leave here too, since his wife wants them to go back to their huge house in SEA. What remains is actually a good management team that has been dealt a major financial hole, and now we are trying to get out of it. Will they come back to us again? Not easily, and that would ONLY happen if we had another 9-11 type catastrophy. If that happens, we all will suffer, at each airline. You love to bring up the word "history"---except you neglect to see that the people who created our bad history as of late are mostly HISTORY themselves. And, I love to see someone criticize people when their company is in BK. You are a piece of work. Are we not in BK? Are the financials all fake? How much bargaining power do we have? I guess we could have held a knife to their throats and threatened to shut it down. That is what you would have done, because you aint no coward.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Bringupthebird]

Your airline doesn't need to go into bankruptcy again, it can stay there indefinitely and continue to dream up one crisis after another that will require more pilot's money. And should they ever decide to leave the cozy confines of BK, they can hammer you at the negotiating table when they look at every other pilot group caving in because of what the cowards of DAL have wrought. Market rates? Industry standard? Your best years are behind you.

Leverage? The DAL pilots had tremendous leverage with an airline industry on the verge of a huge upward turnaround, DAL would never stand for a strike. Your negotiated solution would have been a fraction of what you ended up accepting and you would have affirmed the strength of ALPA to boot. All would add to the rising tide lifting all boats. But it would have taken some real courage to take that risk.

It takes more courage to protect a profession than it does to protect a ski boat.

I still can't believe that 60% of the DAL pilots agreed with management that they were overpaid and underworked.

 

[On Your Six]

Your airline doesn't need to go into bankruptcy again, it can stay there indefinitely and continue to dream up one crisis after another that will require more pilot's money. And should they ever decide to leave the cozy confines of BK, they can hammer you at the negotiating table when they look at every other pilot group caving in because of what the cowards of DAL have wrought.

I still can't believe that 60% of the DAL pilots agreed with management that they were overpaid and underworked.

I guess you were unaware that Delta was in bankruptcy, had $20+ billion worth of debt and could possibly be liquidated... Yeah, the pilots had all of the leverage in the negotiations... Time to wake up to reality.

 

[IXLR8]

. If you want to place blame on who started this slide to 75 or 76 seats, blame NW. Bye Bye--General Lee

Umm...lets not deflect the way the Delta guys voted onto the other guys....everyone has their own piece of crap TA to vote on....

 

[Benjamin Dover]

It's been hard times at DAL lately, so I really needed a good laugh to take the edge off. Who is this Pipejockey guy? He kills me - what a riot!! Glad he's got it all figured out for us. While he's checking out old contracts, hope he can dig up old Pan Am, TWA, Eastern, Braniff, et. al payrates of old compared to today's rates.

Pipesmoker, our contract sucks. I voted against it b/c it means even more of our flying goes to the "toy jet" as you called it and even more years for upgrade. But, we lost, we'll deal with it. Also as an industry means even longer for you in the ditch or the CL-65.

You are correct in the erosion of this profession, but I must have missed your solution. By the way, I am quite sure SWA pilots could give a sh*t about your analysis of their 1994 wages. With a bit of research you could estimate their increase in net worth solely due to profit sharing and stock options since this time. Most sane people elsewhere would gladly turn back the clock and take the SWA rate of return compared to their own during this time.

Appreciate the levity P-Jockey.

Ben

 

[Benjamin Dover]

Your airline doesn't need to go into bankruptcy again, it can stay there indefinitely and continue to dream up one crisis after another that will require more pilot's money. And should they ever decide to leave the cozy confines of BK, they can hammer you at the negotiating table when they look at every other pilot group caving in because of what the cowards of DAL have wrought. Market rates? Industry standard? Your best years are behind you.

Leverage? The DAL pilots had tremendous leverage with an airline industry on the verge of a huge upward turnaround, DAL would never stand for a strike. Your negotiated solution would have been a fraction of what you ended up accepting and you would have affirmed the strength of ALPA to boot. All would add to the rising tide lifting all boats. But it would have taken some real courage to take that risk.

It takes more courage to protect a profession than it does to protect a ski boat.

I still can't believe that 60% of the DAL pilots agreed with management that they were overpaid and underworked.

Uh, Birdman - been out of the country since the USAIR, UAL, NWA bankruptcy concessions - or the AA pre-BK deal? Yeah our deal sucks, but Delta is hardly the trend setter. I thought we had some good mo' going against it, but a 12-1 MEC vote swayed a lot of dudes.

Sounds like you're a great guy though, looking out for all us junior guys with the age 60 thing - TIC

Ben

 

[GogglesPisano]

Personally it doesn't look that bad to me. No further paycuts. Look at airlinepilotcentral.com and you will see DL's pay is competetive with the other legacies, and is in fact considerably higher in the first few years' longevity.

 

[pipejockey]

Who is this Pipejockey guy?

Thats funny, I was thinking the very same about you! What with your 19 posts and all:laugh:.

Pipesmoker, our contract sucks.

You said it! And were you trying to insult me with your name calling? I actually enjoy a nice smoke from my pipe, or a good cigar. It keeps the mosquitos away while I am fishing.

By the way, I am quite sure SWA pilots could give a sh*t about your analysis of their 1994 wages.

What are you talking about? That "analysis" you call it, which gives me far too much credit, but thanks anyway, was only meant to point out that not only DAL, but CAL, NWA, UAL, and US pilots are all earning less today than SWA pilots did in 1994 when they were still the booby prize for pilots looking to get on with a major.

Appreciate the levity P-Jockey.

Ben

Sure glad I could help. I know you must need some levity when comparing the 2001 contract to this current POS.

What I DON'T appreciate is professional aviators selling my profession short and leaving it in a shambles for me for the next 30 years. Thanks all!

 

[PCL_128]

Are the financials all fake?

Yep. Pretty much.

 

[General Lee]

Hey Pipe,

I can't wait for you alone to turn this whole industry around. That will be great.... Get crackin..... You can do it.... echo echo...... hello? hello?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Yep. Pretty much.

So, we shouldn't be in BK at all? I know that there are plenty of one time charges out there, but you are saying we shouldn't even be in BK? Really? Why didn't you show your proof to ALPA? Did you know 9-11 was going to happen before it did? Why didn't you alert someone?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[pipejockey]

Hey Pipe,

I can't wait for you alone to turn this whole industry around. That will be great.... Get crackin..... You can do it.... echo echo...... hello? hello?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Yeah it's ashame isn't it? There won't be any industry left for me after you all are done with it. Management will be having us coming to work with a beannie on and being paid in candy bars for compensation

 

[General Lee]

Yeah it's ashame isn't it? There won't be any industry left for me after you all are done with it. Management will be having us coming to work with a beannie on and being paid in candy bars for compensation

Yeah, but I will be getting a $100,000 dollar bar, while you get a snickers. But keep working on it, maybe you will make a difference.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Lear70]

Personally it doesn't look that bad to me. No further paycuts. Look at airlinepilotcentral.com and you will see DL's pay is competetive with the other legacies, and is in fact considerably higher in the first few years' longevity.

Hmmm... why don't you take a look at the existing seniority list and tell me how many pilots still on property are in "the first few years' longevity".

Easy for the company to give up what they don't have to pay.