Delta Connection Academy...THOUGHTS????

[bobbysamd]

Comair

I wouldn't even argue with Skydesk or the other clowns...I mean, in 1991 he was probably watching some ABC After School Special or something while his mother whipped him up some mac and cheese and telling him to wipe his nose.

You're right. I shouldn't. But I like to feel there are at least a few people out there who are capable of rational discussion, and to those people I direct my comments.

I also interviewed at Comair in 1991, but fortunately I lived in FL at the time. I went to interview with a dude by the name of Fry. Not even a hint of a letter, phone call or anything. The place was chaos.

Once more, I rest my case. You still probably had to spend the day, at least, driving. No matter if you traveled twenty miles or two-thousand miles, there is no reason for such discourtesy, especially when the outfit holds itself out as the paragon of professional flight training.

Thanks for posting.

 

[NuGuy]

You're right. I shouldn't. But I like to feel there are at least a few people out there who are capable of rational discussion, and to those people I direct my comments. Once more, I rest my case. You still probably had to spend the day, at least, driving. No matter if you traveled twenty miles or two-thousand miles, there is no reason for such discourtesy, especially when the outfit holds itself out as the paragon of professional flight training.

Thanks for posting.

Absolutely...

When I was a real new guy, I would have given anything for a resource like this. Imagine...near real time gouge for addresses, interview info, working conditions and the straight dope from people who've been there and done that...FOR FREE!

Instead you have a clueless bunch of kids who are going to have to go out and re-invent the wheel for themselves and find out the hard way.

Yea, when I visited CAA in 91, I was pretty underwhelmed. They had a big fleet and were busy, but it was just a lot more of what I had already seen at other places...barely organized chaos.

By accident, I instead wound up at a mom & pop operation where I could have some input on what went on, and you were rewarded for solving problems instead of chastised for bringing them to light. No where near the size of CAA, but you could stay busy. They had 30 planes or so, and we turned out safe, knowledgable pilots who understood how the world worked when they were done. The students got the knowledge they needed, without any BS. They almost always got through nearly on time and nearly on budget. The CFI's there prided themselves on all "bringing something extra to the party" in the form of experience, instead of the rote regurgitation that passes for training these days.

Almost to the man/woman, the instructor corp that was there, and many of the students, are all on at majors or their job of choice now. Funny how the world works sometimes.

Sadly, it seems that these medium sized M&P operations are a thing of the past, except for very small operators.

Nu

 

[bobbysamd]

Flightinfo.com and Comair

When I was a real new guy, I would have given anything for a resource like this. Imagine...near real time gouge for addresses, interview info, working conditions and the straight dope from people who've been there and done that...FOR FREE!

I agree emphatically. The only gouge around in 1991 was outdated, obsolete and inauthentic Kit Darby FAPA notes, and rumors and gossip from associates who attended interviews previously.

Instead you have a clueless bunch of kids who are going to have to go out and re-invent the wheel for themselves and find out the hard way.

Yea, when I visited CAA in 91, I was pretty underwhelmed. They had a big fleet and were busy, but it was just a lot more of what I had already seen at other places...barely organized chaos.

Clueness is definitely the operative word, in more ways than one. Combative and belligerent, too, when confronted by information and opinions that opposes their company kool-aid. In other words, they don't want the facts to confuse their opinions.

I still like 141 schools, and do not doubt that Comair provides decent training. And, I'm sure schools that neither you nor I have heard of have similar cultures as Comair. There are also plenty of others that are non-oppressive and non-confrontational, and actually supportive of their endeavors.

There are plenty of training choices and plenty of schools. Flight training is expensive and requires a full commitment. Choose carefully - and listen and receive all input, even if it opposes your opinion.

 

[NuGuy]

I agree emphatically. The only gouge around in 1991 was outdated, obsolete and inauthentic Kit Darby FAPA notes, and rumors and gossip from associates who attended interviews previously.Clueness is definitely the operative word, in more ways than one. Confrontational, too, when accosted by information and opinions that opposes their company kool-aid. In other words, they don't want the facts to confuse their opinions.

I still like 141 schools, and do not doubt that Comair provides decent training. And, I'm sure schools that neither you nor I have heard of have similar cultures as Comair. There are also plenty of others that are non-oppressive and non-confrontational, and actually supportive of their endeavors.

There are plenty of training choices and plenty of schools. Flight training is expensive and requires a full commitment. Choose carefully - and listen and receive all input, even if it opposes your opinion.

Hey Bobby,

I like 141 schools, too, as long as they stick to their purpose...transfering information that is required and appropriate in a formal, organized format. For some people, especially younger guys who didn't have the benefit of college, THIS is the way to go. At the 141 school where I was, we had more than a few "youtes" that really needed the structure of the program.

What I don't like to see is a formal groundschool program turned into a game of "stump the dummy" or some kind of sick weeding out process where important information is lost in the course of memorizing the trivia.

On the other hand, for "mature" students or for folks with better-than-average motivational and orginizational skills, part 61 is probably a better way to go. I've found these people can absorb the book stuff in short order, and are best left to pick up the finer points one-on-one. In these cases, these guys are better off 61 without getting hung up on all the hoop jumping 141 requires.

These are the guys you can teach something to once or twice, and they are good to go onto the next item. I've had the pleasure of a couple of these types of students, and they are absolutely great to work with. They come prepared, have a bunch of questions to ask when they show up and have in THEIR head items they want to work on.

What I hate to see is these kinds of students spending obscene amounts of money on a program that doesn't suit them. A good FBO program, or maybe even ATPs Firehose would be the best, and much, much less expensive.

Shame of it is, is that I have never personally seen the "perfect" training program or facility. Usually, you see that either the school has nice facilities and/or aircraft, but cardiac-inducing prices (FSI), or they are more affordable (I hesitate to use that work in conjuction with most schools) with facilities better suited for a frat house on saturday morning. Most pay zero homage to the culture of aviation and have all the warmth and interest of a dentist's office .

As for the polarization (IE drunk with Kool-aid) that you have seen in the students and/or CFIs, that usually comes from one thing...inbreeding. No, not the kind that you see in Deliverance, but what happens when you recycle countless generations of students into CFIs with little or no effort to bring outside ideas into the mix to keep it fresh. I've seen some REALLY weird stuff come from this...

It's mostly a managament dillema...but sooner or later the FAA gets around to importing some new folks into the FSDO and they get a good case of "what the fcuk??" when they see how the school in question does some things.

ERAU and UND, as well as some other places, go through cycles of these, where the POI or CMO forces them to hire from outside. They do so, begrudgingly, and usually only a token amount. Soon, these new CFIs hoplessly outnumbered and totally neutered as to effecting any real change leave within 6 months when they are told in no uncertain terms that their presence is NOT welcome. The cycle then begins again...

Nu

 

[Doubleo6point9]

Personally I wouldn't go through DCA. During my final year at Metro State College of Denver they lobbied hard with the Dept Chair to turn Metro into one of DCA's remote campuses. They gave us their speach about how we'd be guarantee the interview but they never went into any detail other than "you'll be hired on as an instructor, build 900 hours total time and then you spend the next 100 building multi time as an instructor. At that point you're guaranteed an interview with one of our DCA airlines." Of course they didn't mention any of the negative things i've read on here.

The biggest thing about it was that they never brought any instructors or student for us to talk to and they repeatedly dodged some important questions that people were bringing up-as if they were trying to hide something, which now I know they were. If I remember correctly, alot of people wanted to know what the hire rate(for a CFI position) was for students who went through their program. They kept saying "97% of our hired instructors who interview end up with placement in a regional." BUT, they kept dodging the question by adding a vague description of how the training would go and everything. FINALLY, one of our most outspoken students stood up and said "Why is it that everytime we ask how many students are hired on as instructors after finishing your course you cannot give us a straight answer? And why are there no sucessful students present who have finished the entire course and made it through the program here today to answer any of our questions?" With that they were a bit befuttled and finally admitted that only 60% of their students are hired on as instructors. Then they were to quick to point out that out of those 60%, the ones (note that they didn't mention any numbers about how many instructors made it to the interview or were canned before the interview) that were interviewed had a 97% hire rate. After we brought up the questions about the other instructors who weren't hired they said "well you've had the best training available behind you so you will be hired at other schools and you'll have that training for life regardless of where you go."

Anyways, it was all very suspect and they were trying to guage interest to see if it was worth bringing it here to Denver or not. The Department Chair was all for it and so were alot of us graduating students intially because we were promised that we'd be given an opportunity to interview with them as a CFI. But again, they said "we'll be bringing in our own CFI's and hiring some local ones due to the high altitude". The best #'s they gave us for that was "50/50 initially..But it can change depending on the situation.." But after awhile the interest faded with everyone because of the costs(minimum of 60k they were projecting) and because it defeats the purpose of that school in the first place: affordable quality education and flight training. The Dept Chair was trying too hard to be like ERAU or UND. Plus alot of us felt that any company willing to charge their students 60/hr for instruction and only pay the instructor 10 of it only cares about one thing: money and profits, not the students or the instructors.


Oh and the other big thing. None of the students would be allowed to use the planes for anything other than training purposes. Which sucks in my opinion because that takes out 90% of the fun of flying when you're learning and doesn't give you a whole lot of real world experience(as everyone else was saying). Personally I would have to say some of my most enjoyable moments in flying took place because I was able to take my friends and family up flying on cross country flights with me as I worked my way through my private, instrument, comm, cfi, etc.

 

[standaman]

The strong will survive

I worked for the academy for three years and I can tell you exactly about the placement rate of students to instructors. The students who should be instructors are instructors. The ones who should not are not. You do get a garunteed interview. In my opinion it is worth it's wait in gold. Expensive flight school heck yes. Does management do some strange things. They sure do. I can tell you this it is a quick route to the airlines. If and only if you are willing to live in the system they have.

 

[bobbysamd]

141

I like 141 schools, too, as long as they stick to their purpose...transfering information that is required and appropriate in a formal, organized format. For some people, especially younger guys who didn't have the benefit of college, THIS is the way to go . . . .

. . . . or even for those who have.

At the 141 school where I was, we had more than a few "youtes" that really needed the structure of the program . . . .

(emphasis added)

Agreed, wholeheartedly. That has been my point about why I like 141.

What I don't like to see is a formal groundschool program turned into a game of "stump the dummy" or some kind of sick weeding out process where important information is lost in the course of memorizing the trivia.

Agreed, again. You encounter a certain amount of this in 141, some more than others.

There are always dogmatic instructors/stage check pilots who love to ask, "How many rivets are there in a (school's trainer)?" Wouldn't a more productive question be, "What you would you do if you found missing rivets and/or loose or missing Dzus fasteners during your preflight?" Of course, going to whether the aircraft is airworthy and if the student would fly it.

On the other hand, for "mature" students or for folks with better-than-average motivational and orginizational skills, part 61 is probably a better way to go. I've found these people can absorb the book stuff in short order, and are best left to pick up the finer points one-on-one. In these cases, these guys are better off 61 without getting hung up on all the hoop jumping 141 requires.

Perhaps. But for those who have been out of school for a while, the discipline a school environment affords can still help them learn more, better and faster. I speak from personal experience, having returned to school full-time nearly eleven years ago after being out for twenty-one years.

As for the polarization (IE drunk with Kool-aid) that you have seen in the students and/or CFIs, that usually comes from one thing...inbreeding. No, not the kind that you see in Deliverance, but what happens when you recycle countless generations of students into CFIs with little or no effort to bring outside ideas into the mix to keep it fresh. I've seen some REALLY weird stuff come from this...

True. ERAU brought in outside instructors when I started there in 1988, but after it hired a few who refused the standardization, it went back to hiring only from within. I don't know if that had changed after I left there in 1991. As you put it:

ERAU and UND, as well as some other places, go through cycles of these, where the POI or CMO forces them to hire from outside. They do so, begrudgingly, and usually only a token amount. Soon, these new CFIs hoplessly outnumbered and totally neutered as to effecting any real change leave within 6 months when they are told in no uncertain terms that their presence is NOT welcome. The cycle then begins again...

. . . . and again, and again . . . .

 

[bobbysamd]

Metro

During my final year at Metro State College of Denver [DCA] lobbied hard with the Dept Chair to turn Metro into one of DCA's remote campuses . . . .

That would have been a pity. Metro has an excellent program. I knew one of its adjunct instructors, who was a retired United DC-10 captain and who was my father's college roommate in the '40s. I know of one of its other adjunct instructors, who is well known in Denver aviation circles, who flew traffic watch, and had been involved in Colorado CAP. Finally, I flew with a Metro aviation grad. This young man was an excellent pilot.

 

[thorrr]

Hey Bobby,
Shame of it is, is that I have never personally seen the "perfect" training program or facility. Usually, you see that either the school has nice facilities and/or aircraft, but cardiac-inducing prices (FSI), or they are more affordable (I hesitate to use that work in conjuction with most schools) with facilities better suited for a frat house on saturday morning. Most pay zero homage to the culture of aviation and have all the warmth and interest of a dentist's office .
Nu

. . .errrr.... this statement doesnt belong in a conversation about DCA, simply because the school meets neither one of these qualifications. Is DCA the exception in that it charges cardiac-inducing prices for facilities LEASED from the frat house ;-)

 

[SMOE]

I worked for the academy for three years and I can tell you exactly about the placement rate of students to instructors. The students who should be instructors are instructors. The ones who should not are not. You do get a garunteed interview. In my opinion it is worth it's wait in gold. Expensive flight school heck yes. Does management do some strange things. They sure do. I can tell you this it is a quick route to the airlines. If and only if you are willing to live in the system they have.

WTF are you smokin'? Let me guess, you were one of DCA's glorious "standz" pilots who swaggered around like Chuck frickin' Yeager thinking you had done all seen all...all from the confines of central Florida's airspace. Apparently you played the game like all good robots that DCA likes. Look in the mirror, I think theres still some brown stuff on the end of your nose and some white stuff still dribbling down your chin. Your a tool...