Delta Connection Academy...THOUGHTS????

[bobbysamd]

FlightSafety

I worked at FSI from 1991-'92. The place indeed has cardiac-inducing prices, but the student housing wasn't bad. The campus was nice, the airplanes, unlike Comair's, were nice, maintenance was tops, and the training was top-notch. Customer service for clients was excellent.

Contrary to Comair, FSI rolled out the red carpet for me when I traveled another two-thousand miles for its interview. It put me up in one of the bungalows on campus. The interview was conducted over four days, during which I took writtens, a sim and a flight with an assistant chief pilot, and was interviewed by the Center Manager and the Chief Pilot. No airline interview I attended was that thorough - and I liked it. I was impressed. I was well-treated.

FSI's treatment of flight instructors back then was not that great. The Chief Pilot lied to me, and probably others, about pay not long after I arrived. It tended to treat all flight instructors like a bunch of 19-year-olds. In September of 1992, he announced to the whole group that salaries were being eliminated and all salaried instructors, of which I was one, would be returned to hourly, with paychecks being docked for any overpayment. That caused a major outcry, with at least one instructor turning in his keys and leaving on the spot. Coincidentally, or not, perhaps, the Chief Pilot was sacked about two months later. I already had a job lined up and was gone before he was.

The gentlemen, and I emphasize, gentlemen, who are now in charge of FSI were there when I was there, and are, without question, absolutely first-class people. For that reason, I am sure FSI personnel are treated better than in my day. I did hear that FSI instructors were given a raise. Students were always treated well at FSI.

FSI, like any school, has its negatives. It may not necessarily wave an airline interview under your nose. But, having worked in three well-known 141 operations, I would recommend FSI to anyone - even with its cardiac-inducing prices. I feel you get value, together with considerate treatment, for what you pay.

 

[standaman]

WTF are you smokin'? Let me guess, you were one of DCA's glorious "standz" pilots who swaggered around like Chuck frickin' Yeager thinking you had done all seen all...all from the confines of central Florida's airspace. Apparently you played the game like all good robots that DCA likes. Look in the mirror, I think theres still some brown stuff on the end of your nose and some white stuff still dribbling down your chin. Your a tool...

This robot with brown stuff on my nose got a job just as you did. I was not a standz pilot and yes I played the game and I am happy I did. Any company that you work for will expect you to join the culture. To think otherwise is criminal. If you don't like it you don't have to stay or join it. I was okay with their system. Again I sit here with a good job. When I look in the mirror I am happy with what I see. Are you?

 

[LXApilot]

Scott,
Whoever SMOE is he just called you out man. ROTFLMAO! The thing you guys in your pool never got was the big picture. You stole a seat at the airline from someone who really deserves it, and now you guys like to come back to CRG or wherever and show off your stripes and proclaim that you 'made it'. Yeah, made it all the way to the regional airlines so you can erode the very major airline pilot jobs you so long for. I've read your above statement over and over again and still cannot believe what you have written. You are a self-admitting brown nose, but justify it by looking at your current position. If I ever had to say something it is this; everyone makes it Scotty. And you don't have to screw people, you don't have to brown nose, you don't have to lower yourself to that level. You almost sound happy that you knuckled under and took it up the tailpipe for the sake of sitting the right seat at "the airline". Why do you guys call it that anyways? Nevermind! Point is, where is your pride in yourself? Have you no shame Scott? Everyone has some kind of humility, or do they? I knew plenty of other guys out there that didnt screw anyone, didnt brag that they flew for dca, tried to help everyone they could, and ended up quietly taking the job they wanted and never admitted to their affiliation ever again in their careers. I respect you because you are a decent pilot, but this is just the attitude that makes the rest of the industry hate DCA - and limite the opportunities for everyone one else not quite as "fortunate" as you. If you can call it that...

Fly Safe,
Colin

 

[NuGuy]

It tended to treat all flight instructors like a bunch of 19-year-olds.

Hi Bobby,

And here, at last, do we find the crux of the problem with schools today, and I am not singling out any one place.

First, schools treat their CFIs like this because they have to. In essence, this group makes up the largest segment of the CFI population...19-25 year olds or people who act like them. These pilots, for lack of experience elsewhere, will knuckle under, and jump the hoops since they are only going to be there a relatively short time. Don't make waves, mark the days, and get the students out. Schools come down with an iron hand and SOP scripture , because this is how you have to treat 21 year old CFIs with 250 hours who have never flown above 30 degrees North (or insert any convient fix within 150 miles of the schools base).

Second, schools treat their CFIs this way because it is economically expident to do so. Who is going to make waves? Although with the bones some places charge, you would think they could add $5/hr and pass it right on to the CFI, because in the end, it would make up a TINY portion of the training expense. But instead they will cut the costs where they can and from the people who won't complain about it.

The FAA tried to head this problem off when they took over the initial CFI checkrides around 1988. From what I understand, they were concerned about the quality of CFIs, but were just as concerned about the dedication these people would have. They saw a LOT of folks out there getting the ticket for time building, and not really paying attention to what they were doing. In the end, though, is this has just become another hurdle to jump.

If the FAA REALLY wanted to fix this problem, they would have addressed the experience "gap". If they were to require 135 type minimums for instructing... it would really be interesting to see how things would change.

JMHO,
Nu

 

[mnixon]

If the FAA REALLY wanted to fix this problem, they would have addressed the experience "gap". If they were to require 135 type minimums for instructing... it would really be interesting to see how things would change.

JMHO,
Nu

That is the most asanine thing that I have ever heard. Would you really feel that way if you were one of those low time pilots? There are only so many banner towing jobs out there to be had and lets face it, flight instruction may not be the answer, but at least you learn something new every day. I think if you were to go back to your newly minted CFI certicate days, you might rethink this statement.

 

[bobbysamd]

Flight instructor treatment, or lack thereof

chools treat their CFIs like [19-year-olds] because they have to. In essence, this group makes up the largest segment of the CFI population...19-25 year olds or people who act like them. These pilots, for lack of experience elsewhere, will knuckle under, and jump the hoops since they are only going to be there a relatively short time. Don't make waves, mark the days, and get the students out. Schools come down with an iron hand and SOP scripture , because this is how you have to treat 21 year old CFIs with 250 hours who have never flown above 30 degrees North (or insert any convient fix within 150 miles of the schools base)

. . . . which might be why I found the treatment so insulting. I was 40, had more than 3400 total hours, 890 multi and more than 2400 hours instructing when I joined FSI in 1991. Not only that, I had been working since I was 14 and knew better. Flight instructing may very well had been the some of the younger group's first job.

Another difference between me and the younger group is I would have been interested in staying a while and probably would have but for the poor treatment. As it turned out, two of the three gentlemen whom I mentioned above joined FSI when I did (one also left but came back). They were actually older than me. What might have been different for them is they were both retired military who were receiving retirement benefits. Neither had designs on the airlines. So, FSI was a second income for them and it may have mattered less to them than someone like me. FSI was my only income source.

If the FAA REALLY wanted to fix this problem, they would have addressed the experience "gap". If they were to require 135 type minimums for instructing... it would really be interesting to see how things would change.

I like your idea in theory, but I also respect mnixon's point of view.

I feel it all boils down to the issue of respect - a concept that has been deteriorating for years and is now severely lacking.

 

[NuGuy]

That is the most asanine thing that I have ever heard. Would you really feel that way if you were one of those low time pilots? There are only so many banner towing jobs out there to be had and lets face it, flight instruction may not be the answer, but at least you learn something new every day.

Mnixon,
Been there, done that. And yes, I benefited from the system as it was THEN. But I can also look back with an experienced eye and discuss with Bobby the problems with the system as exists NOW.

Take a look at the system as it stands now. You need 1200 hours to fly a bunch of cancelled checks around by yourself, even single engine. Heck you even need 500 to do it VFR, but with 250 hours you are good to go with someones life in your hands. Yet I don't hear a single complaint about how the 135 system works.

The really nice wrinkle to all this? A good portion of of those that do teach don't even want to be there, and wouldn't do it at all if it weren't for the time building.

If it were up to me, I would say Part 135 cargo only is good to go with present Comm/CFI mins, and raise up the CFI ticket to present 135 mins.

This way, the people who really didn't want to CFI wouldn't have to, and could move right into building that time. And those that did have the urge to teach would have a bit more respect and might earn a few more bucks in the process.

Nu

 

[NuGuy]

. . . . which might be why I found the treatment so insulting. I was 40, had more than 3400 total hours, 890 multi and more than 2400 hours instructing when I joined FSI in 1991. Not only that, I had been working since I was 14 and knew better. Flight instructing may very well had been the some of the younger group's first job.

Another difference between me and the younger group is I would have been interested in staying a while and probably would have but for the poor treatment. As it turned out, two of the three gentlemen whom I mentioned above joined FSI when I did (one also left but came back). They were actually older than me. What might have been different for them is they were both retired military who were receiving retirement benefits. Neither had designs on the airlines. So, FSI was a second income for them and it may have mattered less to them than someone like me. FSI was my only income source.I like your idea in theory, but I also respect mnixon's point of view.

I feel it all boils down to the issue of respect - a concept that has been deteriorating for years and is now severely lacking.

Too true, and I think we're comming close to the issue.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think there is NO place for the lower time CFI, but you need to have effective oversight, and having a 700 hour CFI oversee a 300 hour CFI is not what I mean. In my perfect world, you would have been EXACTLY the kind of guy I would have been looking for to smooth out the rough spots. Someone for the lower time guys to head to for getting the gouge, and to perpetuate some of the "cultural knowledge".

True a lot of schools have Chief CFIs and assistant chiefs, but usually these guys are doing so much administrative BS and fire stamping, that the opportunity to really see what's going on is slim.

Well, maybe if we want to continue this thread we can start a new topic...I don't wan't anyone to think I am pointing the finger at any school in particular just cause this conversation is in this thread. This would be a great topic over a pitcher of beer or two...


Nu

 

[mnixon]

NuGuy, I would totally agree with you in the fact that time builders should be offered an outlet to build that time outside of teaching our future captains how to fly. But in the same respect, flight instruction is a double edged sword. We are all here to build time, yet some of us care about what we do. When I look at my students who are now CFI applicants, and realize that I introduced them to aviation, is overwhelming. While I agree with you in the fact that time building should be offered in a different venue, where does it leave persons like myself, that are not only building time, but actually love what I do. Yes, I roll pennies for gas and food, but in the end, I am gettiing paid to fly, the one goal that I have strived for all my life. I am not flying the plane I want to fly, and my missions are not the ones that I have wanted to do, but when it boils down to it, I am doing what I love, and that is flying airplanes. Now to take that away from someone, saying that I am not qualified and that I do not have enough experience is ridicolous. I just went through the same training as they did...I made the same mistakes as they did, it is fresh in my mind. How is a 1250TT pilot who built there time flying banners and cargo (VFR at that) more qualified then I am? I respect your points about people who really dont care and are just here to build time, but in the same respect, you must realize that the majority here, like it or not, want to make a difference.

 

[bobbysamd]

New instructor oversight, support - and respect

[Y]ou need to have effective oversight, and having a 700 hour CFI oversee a 300 hour CFI is not what I mean . . . . Someone for the lower time guys to head to for getting the gouge, and to perpetuate some of the "cultural knowledge".

Was that not the original intent of the Gold Seal CFI program? The Gold Seal is an accomplishment of which I am proud, but it only resulted in a nice extra credential to put on my resume.

[A] lot of schools have Chief CFIs and assistant chiefs, but usually these guys are doing so much administrative BS and fire stamping, that the opportunity to really see what's going on is slim.

. . . . and, don't forget, serving as management and ownership's lackeys. As long as they are serving in that function, don't count on them to be entirely supportive of and helpful to the instructor masses. They will cover their respective asses long before they stick their necks out for you.

I have worked in three well-known 141 schools and have experienced Comair (DCA). Based on my experience, I would say these problems plague many schools, with some being bothered more than others. But that does not mean these problems are acceptable, tolerable, and should be tolerated. Once again, whether you are a new instructor just there to build time or a career instructor, it all boils down to respect. Respect may not mean much to you when you're young, but as you gain life experience you find it starts to mean something. My earlier comments about Comair turn on that issue.