Delta 717 problems?

[jonjuan]

RA has won.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Yep-especially after your last contract cave. He's still laughing. :laugh:

 

[redflyer65]

Yep.

RA was over a barrel with the CRJ-200 re-engine cost. Several million dollars to be eaten by Mother Delta.

RA made a deal with Bombardier to swap those needing re-engine for larger CRJ's. DALPA and Jenny Leigh bought off on it for more money. They've done it time and time again...so RA knew his chances were good.

He's still laughing all the way to the bank. Leverage lost and the Village Idiot still doesn't see it.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Yep.

RA was over a barrel with the CRJ-200 re-engine cost. Several million dollars to be eaten by Mother Delta.

RA made a deal with Bombardier to swap those needing re-engine for larger CRJ's. DALPA and Jenny Leigh bought off on it for more money. They've done it time and time again...so RA knew his chances were good.

He's still laughing all the way to the bank. Leverage lost and the Village Idiot still doesn't see it.

You are the GL of SWA you doosh.

 

[redflyer65]

You are the GL of SWA you doosh.

Where did I get it wrong KarmaCameleon?

You a Yes voter?

 

[freightdogfred]

Yep.

RA was over a barrel with the CRJ-200 re-engine cost. Several million dollars to be eaten by Mother Delta.

RA made a deal with Bombardier to swap those needing re-engine for larger CRJ's. DALPA and Jenny Leigh bought off on it for more money. They've done it time and time again...so RA knew his chances were good.

He's still laughing all the way to the bank. Leverage lost and the Village Idiot still doesn't see it.

Several million dollars for re-engine costs is nothing to RA. He upgraded his fleet with bigger an more reliable A/C (717's) in a sweetheart deal, got scope relief on 70 seaters, significantly lowering CASM's on a number of short haul routes. I think he actually saved money, as part of the deal was the 15% cut of profits to the pilots in profit sharing was reduced to 10% for the first 2.5 billion. The pilots cut? More captain's seats. Something SWAPA seemed to care a lot about.

 

[KarmaPolice]

No, I voted "no" and implored everyone I could with my point of view. 4833 was enough for 62% to buy the story that giving DCI 76 more 900s was the only way 50 seaters were getting to the desert.

Sorry, from your posts, I see that you view SWA a lot like GL views DL (beyond reproach until if affects you).

 

[SpauldingSmails]

I think we're going to have to craft a "Godwin's Law" for the major's board.

If the original thread (OT) pertains to Delta the probability of a thread devolving into a DAL vs. SWA flog-fest quickly approaches 1, with each subsequent post.

OT = SWA, then a three-way AT, SWA, DAL lambaste-a-thon shall ensue.
OT = USAir, US-E vs. US-W fight. Again.
OT = AA, See USAir.

 

[General Lee]

Yep.

RA was over a barrel with the CRJ-200 re-engine cost. Several million dollars to be eaten by Mother Delta.

RA made a deal with Bombardier to swap those needing re-engine for larger CRJ's. DALPA and Jenny Leigh bought off on it for more money. They've done it time and time again...so RA knew his chances were good.

He's still laughing all the way to the bank. Leverage lost and the Village Idiot still doesn't see it.

So, a 20% raise over 3 years, additional DC fund contributions, better vacation, training pay, sick leave, 215 50 seaters gone, and guaranteed 88 717s with 600 associated new Capt spots WASN'T a good deal? You would have gone for more? What are you going to ask GK for.....??? Silence....... Yeah, that's what I thought....

Thanks to the 3 year contract and HUGE profits, looks like the next contract should be even better, and I just hope you guys can hang on, because I don't think GK wants to bargain much with you. Good luck with that...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[redflyer65]

So, a 20% raise over 3 years, additional DC fund contributions, better vacation, training pay, sick leave, 215 50 seaters gone, and guaranteed 88 717s with 600 associated new Capt spots WASN'T a good deal? You would have gone for more? What are you going to ask GK for.....??? Silence....... Yeah, that's what I thought....

Thanks to the 3 year contract and HUGE profits, looks like the next contract should be even better, and I just hope you guys can hang on, because I don't think GK wants to bargain much with you. Good luck with that...


Bye Bye---General Lee

It was a beautiful sellout. And RA thanks you.

 

[General Lee]

It was a beautiful sellout. And RA thanks you.

Uhhhhh, riiiiight! Like what you guys did to the AT guys? How much do you owe GK now? Yikes, you may have to take cuts.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

No, I voted "no" and implored everyone I could with my point of view. 4833 was enough for 62% to buy the story that giving DCI 76 more 900s was the only way 50 seaters were getting to the desert.

Sorry, from your posts, I see that you view SWA a lot like GL views DL (beyond reproach until if affects you).

You never understood then what was happening. 88 717s come in to replace 70/76 seaters that were going to then replace outgoing 50 seaters. Do you see the domino effect? 50 seaters couldn't make money in high oil, but maybe a 70 or a 76 seater could, and push them down to those 50 seater routes that could never sustain a 717. Then, allow 717s to take back a large chunk of routes that went to DCI after 9-11. It actually helps everyone, including mainline pilots. More seats to smaller cities to commute on, and more profits via bag fees to help with profit sharing. It benefitted everyone, except 50 seater pilots.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[pilotyip]

It is still a DC-9, Douglas Cable airplane #9, lift the floor and see the DNA of the Douglas Cable airplane #3. Long live the DC-9

 

[KarmaPolice]

You never understood then what was happening. 88 717s come in to replace 70/76 seaters that were going to then replace outgoing 50 seaters. Do you see the domino effect? 50 seaters couldn't make money in high oil, but maybe a 70 or a 76 seater could, and push them down to those 50 seater routes that could never sustain a 717. Then, allow 717s to take back a large chunk of routes that went to DCI after 9-11. It actually helps everyone, including mainline pilots. More seats to smaller cities to commute on, and more profits via bag fees to help with profit sharing. It benefitted everyone, except 50 seater pilots.


Bye Bye---General Lee

It's not that "no voters" don't understand your argument. We do, we get it. We just disagree on what the company was willing to do for us to get the 717. DALPA and the membership took the first offer, so we'll never know what was behind door #2.

There was uncertainty and fear of what the company was going to do if we pushed back, but the overriding argument for many of us was that we simply wanted to do the right thing for the overall profession. United and American were going to piggy back on whatever we did in C2012, and it was a moment we could've taken a historic stand that led to a reshaping of the legacy mainline/connection carrier model.

Prior to the unveiling of C2012, I emailed my rep to tell him I would take a pay cut to displace to the CRJ900 if necessary, if they could find a way to bring those planes mainline. The union and the membership didn't come close, and for that we deserve the criticism we take from our peers. Especially SWA whose scope protections make us look like sell outs.

It's all over now, but the point remains that DALPA's "constructive engagement" led us to not push back for bigger gains for mainline. "No voters" get your argument, they just believe we could've done better, and we should've tried.

 

[JT12345]

Now with the increases at Jetblue and Spirit raising the bar I think the SWA pilot deal will be far from flat. I don't think GK even wants that. Just the gaming of the system is what he wants to stop and for a select few making 350k to 450k+ it is going to hurt. Heck I am not even sure what is going on over there really till I get there. Everything is trending up even with oil around $100 a barrel.

I see a bigger disparity with other employee groups compared to the industry, but I am not the expert on that or really any of this. Rampers making 100k. Is that possible at other legacies like Delta?

Oh wait. Here comes Eastern... again. But not the real one. Let me guess. A 5000k training and interview fee, and they even have an airplane on the ramp for display?

 

[StopNTSing]

Now with the increases at Jetblue and Spirit raising the bar I think the SWA pilot deal will be far from flat. I don't think GK even wants that. Just the gaming of the system is what he wants to stop and for a select few making 350k to 450k+ it is going to hurt. Heck I am not even sure what is going on over there really till I get there. Everything is trending up even with oil around $100 a barrel.

I see a bigger disparity with other employee groups compared to the industry, but I am not the expert on that or really any of this. Rampers making 100k. Is that possible at other legacies like Delta?

Oh wait. Here comes Eastern... again. But not the real one. Let me guess. A 5000k training and interview fee, and they even have an airplane on the ramp for display?

I think GK's mode is (and has been): "Labor, you can talk to my hand until we get 15% ROIC." I don't like it either, and think he is paying a tremendous cost in the form of employee goodwill, but I also choose to live in Realville. Hoepfully we'll finally hit that target sometime this year before the whole operation falls completely apart.

 

[DieselDragRacer]

I like the 6 daily 717s to Dallas Love....



Bye Bye---General Lee

It's about time. The only thing worse than a Delta regional pos from ATL to Love is a two leg SWA trip to Love.

 

[Metrojet]

If it was so awesome, why were so few built? If it was the airplane that made FL into what it was, why did they stop buying 'em and instead opt for...wait for it...737s!

Can we all just agree that smart people on both sides of the table hammered out this deal and that it is a win-win for SWA and Delta? "Fleet Commonality" is obviously not even in Delta's vocabulary, but it is a cornerstone of SWA's business model. Not introducing a second narrow-body fleet type is saving SWA huge sums of money. Finding a readily-available mainline aircraft to replace 50-seat RJ flying will save Delta huge sums of money. Everybody wins! :beer:

P.S. The ATL is still very much a work-in-progress for SWA. Wait another year or two to see it in it's final form (there will still be room for both airlines. BTW)

Just curious if the former AT pilots think it was a big win for them as well?

Metrojet

 

[redflyer65]

It's about time. The only thing worse than a Delta regional pos from ATL to Love is a two leg SWA trip to Love.

Here ya go....

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Impressive.....can I get to Bloomington, Flint or Singapore on your airline?

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

excelent response

"if it was so awesome, why were so few built? If it was the airplane that made FL into what it was, why did they stop buying 'em and instead opt for...wait for it...737s!"........

Boeing actively marketed the 717 to a number of large airlines, including Lufthansa and Northwest (who already operated a large fleet of DC-9 aircraft). Boeing also studied a stretched, higher-capacity version of the 717, to have been called 717-300, but decided against proceeding with the new model, fearing that it would encroach on the company's 737-700 model. Production of the original 717 continued. Boeing continued to believe that the 100-passenger market would be lucrative enough to support both the 717 and the 737-600, the smallest of the Next-Generation 737 series. While the aircraft were similar in overall size, the 737-600 was better suited to long-distance routes, while the lighter 717 was more efficient on shorter, regional routes.



The 717 is a great aircraft. Delta will be very happy with the proper placement in its route structure.

I would venture to bet that many SWA stations that have been slashed in service frequency would have been more than happy to have 717's operating. Many millions of dollars have been spent to build up these routes only to have them cut to the bone.
Flattish? Shrink to profitability? 15% ROIC?

Net gain for aircraft deliveries will be a (-20) aircraft for the year.

This is the best response to "If the B717 was such a great airplane, then why did Boeing stop building them" (StopNTSing) IMHO.

The bottom line is that Boeing wanted to build Boeing aircraft, not McDonnell Douglas aircraft. Much like many of the airline mergers, behind the synergies is that fact that a viable competitor has been illuminated.

The B717 was a step ahead of the B737 in technology and was more fuel efficient, at the time it rolled off the assembly line. There were plans to manufacture shorter versions for the regionals and a stretched version that would hold more passengers than the MD80 and the B737.

The current version of the B737 has now caught up to what the B717 could have been 15 years ago. It could have been a great aircraft for the airlines. If the smaller version were at the regionals, it would only require differences training. (Of course, a new-hire would have to take the full course.).

It would have been interesting to see the landing characteristics of the longest version of the plane. The MD80 can be a bit tricky when you run out of stabilizer trim. The DC9-50 took some getting used to, required a little more power for landing.

Woulda shoulda coulda....!!!