Delay of 9E/XJ/9L list

[Simon Says]

Mesaba didn't find it. Colgan did. Sorry to burst your bubble.
QUOTE]

Finally the truth is revealed. Colgan found the mistakes and are actually the ones disputing the 9E list now. XJ is taking the back seat.

That is true, true, true. Verifiably true.

As for how the list has been corrected to Bloch is a nice story too. 9E merger committee chair J.H. is about as incompetent as they come constructing lists.

 

[MACH-TUCK]

SOME of you XJ types need to realize a couple of things (keep in mind, I am NOT cheerleading the PCL MEC):

1) XJ and 9E are totally different companies, and if the XJ MEC was dealing with PCL mgmt the whole time, things would have almost certainly been different (read: more like the way it turned out at 9E)

2) XJ pilots are not special. In fact, overall they are the exact same type of peope who work at 9E. Or Eagle. Or Delta or American, for that matter. As a group (or groups), pilots are remarkably similar. Yes, 9E's hiring practices may have resulted in a few more bad apples than some other carriers (or perhaps not).

3) Same thing as number two applies to your MEC vs the PCL MEC.

4) The arbitrator is an experienced pro. If the 9E postion and or actions are as terrible as some of you make out, then that will be considered, same for XJ and CJC. Keep that in mind when the decision comes out. The PCL MEC will not write it- a neutral arbitrator will.

I still suspect we will see some sort of status and category, and that DOH is unlikely to be used for anything.

Great post!!

I think once this SLI is behind us we should look at electing NEW union leaders across the board (People that have not been negatively influenced by the past members). It would be nice to see some fresh faces from all three groups running for election.

 

[bri5150]

Great post!!

I think once this SLI is behind us we should look at electing NEW union leaders across the board (People that have not been negatively influenced by the past members). It would be nice to see some fresh faces from all three groups running for election.

I wouldn't mind a throwback that I think everyone respects.

 

[Smarta$$]

Mesaba didn't find it. Colgan did. Sorry to burst your bubble.




I can't imagine that you would vote for a PCL rep. I thinks it's very likely that everyone will vote down partisan lines. Assuming equal voter turnout, that would result in the merged MEC being comprised of 6 PCL reps, 6 cjc reps and 2 msa reps.

Count me as one Pinnacle pilot that will almost certainly vote for Mesaba leadership. Don't get me wrong, we have had some really good leadership over the last 3-4 years. However, the Mesaba group has mostly had good solidarity and high expectations of their contract priorities, safety culture and high expectations of how they should be treated by their company. Not to say they haven't had many setbacks and had their share of attempts by their managers to take advantage of them. But in stark contrast to this group, they stuck together (in large part) and collectively pointed the gun at management to the maximum extent possible.

Our group however, has had a significant portion of our group pointing the gun at the union, dispite good leaders after WG. The biggest problem for our group came from rank and file, as well as leadership from the confederate south. Just as most of our corporate problems came from Tennessee....

Mesaba's management may have played hardball with labor, but they never under-resourced their company staffing, training, facilities, corporate personnel, just to name a few, like we did. Ask any of our training representatives that have toured Mesaba's training facilities and corporate headquarters. Pinnacle is a joke with rampers having taught pilot ground school and a headquarters out of a rundown strip mall in a dangerous part of town. Not to mention a dangerous town.

The faster our corporate, pilot and union culture gets the south diluted out of relevance, the better.

 

[Simon Says]

SOME of you XJ types need to realize a couple of things (keep in mind, I am NOT cheerleading the PCL MEC):

1) XJ and 9E are totally different companies, and if the XJ MEC was dealing with PCL mgmt the whole time, things would have almost certainly been different (read: more like the way it turned out at 9E)

2) XJ pilots are not special. In fact, overall they are the exact same type of peope who work at 9E. Or Eagle. Or Delta or American, for that matter. As a group (or groups), pilots are remarkably similar. Yes, 9E's hiring practices may have resulted in a few more bad apples than some other carriers (or perhaps not).

3) Same thing as number two applies to your MEC vs the PCL MEC.

4) The arbitrator is an experienced pro. If the 9E postion and or actions are as terrible as some of you make out, then that will be considered, same for XJ and CJC. Keep that in mind when the decision comes out. The PCL MEC will not write it- a neutral arbitrator will.

I still suspect we will see some sort of status and category, and that DOH is unlikely to be used for anything.

Nice post, but I strongly dis-agree with point 1 and 3. I have said this before and I will say it again. Pinnacle has a great bunch of pilots. I appreciate the people that vollunteer for the union, but some jobs are not for some people. The 9E elected reps for the most part have the same goals as myself, but getting about to reach the goals is where we differ drastically. Our leadership and leadership styles at XJ has been vastly different than 9E and it truly seems to be more effective.

 

[Smarta$$]

SOME of you XJ types need to realize a couple of things (keep in mind, I am NOT cheerleading the PCL MEC):

1) XJ and 9E are totally different companies, and if the XJ MEC was dealing with PCL mgmt the whole time, things would have almost certainly been different (read: more like the way it turned out at 9E)

2) XJ pilots are not special. In fact, overall they are the exact same type of peope who work at 9E. Or Eagle. Or Delta or American, for that matter. As a group (or groups), pilots are remarkably similar. Yes, 9E's hiring practices may have resulted in a few more bad apples than some other carriers (or perhaps not).

3) Same thing as number two applies to your MEC vs the PCL MEC.

4) The arbitrator is an experienced pro. If the 9E postion and or actions are as terrible as some of you make out, then that will be considered, same for XJ and CJC. Keep that in mind when the decision comes out. The PCL MEC will not write it- a neutral arbitrator will.

I still suspect we will see some sort of status and category, and that DOH is unlikely to be used for anything.

Lets hope the last is not true, for Pinnacle pilots sake. More 9E pilots would be helped by DOH than hurt. By a wide margin. But it doesn't help YOU, so you don't want it, even if it helps the group overall. Sort of like that travesty TA1.

Hoping for DOH across the board.

And while Pinnacle management may have been worse, MSA pilots would still have achieved more because of their solidarity. Our group has been totally fractured for years. As bad as our management has been, and they have been terrible, it should have been enough to get us all pushing in the same direction. But despite all odds, we had hundreds of people that thought it was a better decision to tear the union down from within. Epic stupidity. People that stupid don't have any business having influence on my career.

Mesaba pilots have at least demonstrated that they can distinguish between the enemy and your own team, something far too many southern pilots were not smart enough to accomplish.

I will almost certainly vote Mesaba reps on that basis alone. I can't wait for as much of the old pinnacle to be gone for ever.

 

[Smarta$$]

Nice post, but I strongly dis-agree with point 1 and 3. I have said this before and I will say it again. Pinnacle has a great bunch of pilots. I appreciate the people that vollunteer for the union, but some jobs are not for some people. The 9E elected reps for the most part have the same goals as myself, but getting about to reach the goals is where we differ drastically. Our leadership and leadership styles at XJ has been vastly different than 9E and it truly seems to be more effective.

We have had some good leadership over the last 3-4 years. But don't underestimate how destructive the rank and file can be if they lack the intelligence, education or cultural norms to distinguish between the enemy and the union itself. They also have a very negative influence on good leadership, in addition to the general lack of solidarity.

 

[TurboAWD]

I didn't say I _wanted_ status and catagory, just that I suspect that is more likely than DOH. And while it is true that many PCL F/O's may do well under DOH, there are plenty of CA's that would not.


As far as the MEC's go, has it occured to anyone that if MSA were PCL, then perhaps after years of working under that enviroment, that there would not been as much solidarity, regardless of who was running the MEC?


Fortunately for everyone, the company _seems_ to have been getting beter over the years (two steps forwards, one step back usually). Recent executive turnover is probably a good thing as well. Which means that the MSA guys will probably never get a chance to truely understand what it was like to work at PCL (a good thing).

The PCL MEC has been hampered by many issues, and mistakes were certainly made. But the "if the MSA MEC were there, they would have taken care of buisness and gotten xxx done" attitude shows more about how little you know about this company than what you know (or think you know) regarding the MEC.

 

[Smarta$$]

I didn't say I _wanted_ status and catagory, just that I suspect that is more likely than DOH. And while it is true that many PCL F/O's may do well under DOH, there are plenty of CA's that would not.


As far as the MEC's go, has it occured to anyone that if MSA were PCL, then perhaps after years of working under that enviroment, that there would not been as much solidarity, regardless of who was running the MEC?


Fortunately for everyone, the company _seems_ to have been getting beter over the years (two steps forwards, one step back usually). Recent executive turnover is probably a good thing as well. Which means that the MSA guys will probably never get a chance to truely understand what it was like to work at PCL (a good thing).

The PCL MEC has been hampered by many issues, and mistakes were certainly made. But the "if the MSA MEC were there, they would have taken care of buisness and gotten xxx done" attitude shows more about how little you know about this company than what you know (or think you know) regarding the MEC.

Negative sir. The fact that management was so terrible, should have created all the solidarity around the union leadership that we could ever have wanted, or needed. The fact that so many of our pilots (coincidentally from the south) thought it was a better idea to point the gun at the union, instead of the company, despite how terrible our management have been, is proof, without any doubt, that we need to dilute the southern mentality and influence out of this sad excuse for an airline.

You say that MSA pilots would have had less solidarity working under our management. I believe they would have had more. They had many serious setbacks over the years, and still stuck together. We should have taken our own challenges with our ruthless management, and used that as fuel against nonconnah blvd. Instead, a very large group of really stupid pilots thought it would be wiser to through that fuel on our union, and then light the match.

It is a culture difference, and our past culture has proven to fail us as a group.

We need a new culture with proven success.

 

[Flyer1015]

As for how the list has been corrected to Bloch is a nice story too. 9E merger committee chair J.H. is about as incompetent as they come constructing lists.

What's that story? Can you post it here? If not, PM me for privacy.

 

[TurboAWD]

What came first, the chicken or the egg? Same at PCL. We will never really know, to many variables. There certainly were a significant number of pilots that made things difficult for the MEC. And I wasn't really a fan of some of the previous MEC members/actions either.

I actually think the current MSA MEC/SLI Committee may be doing their pilots a disservice right now, both by perusing DOH and with the negative communications.

Going for DOH sets an expectation that is unlikely to happen (and also doesn’t do their junior pilots any favors). Their energies may have been better spent on trying to make sure the 900 is classed above the 200/Q400. Combined with the negative comm, it is setting up potential for considerable tension between pilots that will have to work together soon.

The sooner this process ends, the better.

 

[Simon Says]

We have had some good leadership over the last 3-4 years. But don't underestimate how destructive the rank and file can be if they lack the intelligence, education or cultural norms to distinguish between the enemy and the union itself. They also have a very negative influence on good leadership, in addition to the general lack of solidarity.

I will agree with how destructive the rank and file can be to the leadership. As for the reasoning for the destructive behavior I don't want to speculate on that.

But a destructive rank and file can be detrimental to the leadership. You bring up a good point.

 

[prtyprtyprncss]

I still question whether any if us on this forum have personally seen or heard what each group is pursuing in regards to the sli. The only thing that w can be sure of is that Bloch knows all there is to know of the situation and he will comment sometime before the return of Jesus.

 

[Smarta$$]

What came first, the chicken or the egg? Same at PCL. We will never really know, to many variables. There certainly were a significant number of pilots that made things difficult for the MEC. And I wasn't really a fan of some of the previous MEC members/actions either.

I actually think the current MSA MEC/SLI Committee may be doing their pilots a disservice right now, both by perusing DOH and with the negative communications.

Going for DOH sets an expectation that is unlikely to happen (and also doesn’t do their junior pilots any favors). Their energies may have been better spent on trying to make sure the 900 is classed above the 200/Q400. Combined with the negative comm, it is setting up potential for considerable tension between pilots that will have to work together soon.

The sooner this process ends, the better.

Sorry, being treated terribly by management is never going to result in destructive actions directed at pilot advocates and volunteers, instead of the company management that is so bad. At least, not among intelligent and enlightened people.

 

[GEORGE DUBYA]

Colgan rules !

 

[TurboAWD]

At least, not among intelligent and enlightened people.

I said pilots were all similar, not intelligent. And sure as heck not enlightened. :laugh:

The thing is that PCL has been such a get it, get time, get out kind of place, that many people aren't interested in expending the slightest effort to try and improve it. Eventually, people just get tired and say "f it".

Regardless, the past is the past. The new (post SLI) MEC has a decent contract (with good grievance langauage) and a (hopefully) improving management team to work with. Life should get better for all the pilots.

And don't forget, with the 2012 hiring boom, we will all be moving up (or getting off) the list anyway!!! :erm:

 

[Smarta$$]

I said pilots were all similar, not intelligent. And sure as heck not enlightened. :laugh:

The thing is that PCL has been such a get it, get time, get out kind of place, that many people aren't interested in expending the slightest effort to try and improve it. Eventually, people just get tired and say "f it".

Regardless, the past is the past. The new (post SLI) MEC has a decent contract (with good grievance langauage) and a (hopefully) improving management team to work with. Life should get better for all the pilots.

And don't forget, with the 2012 hiring boom, we will all be moving up (or getting off) the list anyway!!! :erm:

Amen.

 

[Simon Says]

I said pilots were all similar, not intelligent. And sure as heck not enlightened. :laugh:

The thing is that PCL has been such a get it, get time, get out kind of place, that many people aren't interested in expending the slightest effort to try and improve it. Eventually, people just get tired and say "f it".

Regardless, the past is the past. The new (post SLI) MEC has a decent contract (with good grievance langauage) and a (hopefully) improving management team to work with. Life should get better for all the pilots.

And don't forget, with the 2012 hiring boom, we will all be moving up (or getting off) the list anyway!!! :erm:

Hear, Hear.

 

[xjhawk]

I was surprised mesa bas sli final proposal was doh since I always thought doh was best only for the top 40 percent and 75-80percent of pinnacle pilots. I was even more surprised the pinnacle proposal was so selfish it was almost laughable-when if they went doh it would have put Bloch in a place to place more pinnacle pilots above more mesaba and colgan pilots. I and many mesaba guys thought our union was going to present a relative with fences as the ones who were shouting doh and wanted on the sli committee were not selected. As for the communication..........I agree it is severely lacking......and is making some very upset. I always say......contact your rep.......but that should not have to be......it seems I get my info quicker from other unions.......but I for some reason have not gotten union emails as soon as I was waiting on something as important as this......is there a connection with my complaints and my email stopping? Lol. I am kidding- but communication needs to improve.

 

[coonass]

It's kind of hard to communicate when your not told much from Bloch. 9E has more info because that is where the issuses lay in their list ( this not a shot at 9E guys). The MSA MEC will only report what they can when they can. You also have to remember that comm chairman is most like on a trip and can only send out info when he can. Do I think the MEC should put out a letter once a day to say they know nothing or they found a few more isuess and it doent have to be about 9e's list. Now they don't have to go into details just a general what's going on. If you want the details call your rep and demand answers.

 

[dcfu69]

list isn't coming out for quite some time. Most likely a several weeks or more..from a very reliable source... mmkk

 

[bri5150]

list isn't coming out for quite some time. Most likely a several weeks or more..from a very reliable source... mmkk

Isn't Mr. Bloch about the only reliable source at this point? You must have seen is magic show if you know him. How was it?

 

[DoinTime]

I want to see Bloch pull a seniority list out of his hat.

http://www.blochmagic.com/

 

[bri5150]

Yup, our career progression is in his hands.

 

[SEVEN]

I want to see Bloch pull a seniority list out of his hat.

http://www.blochmagic.com/

Thanks for posting. Now I'm really scared!!

 

[i fly boxes]

Question- why do all three of our comittees allow mr. Bloch to remain silent for such long periods of time. The guy has to have a phone number, what's the problem with kindly asking him when he will be done now that he has all the info he needs? That would relieve a lot of tension for everyone

 

[bri5150]

Question- why do all three of our comittees allow mr. Bloch to remain silent for such long periods of time. The guy has to have a phone number, what's the problem with kindly asking him when he will be done now that he has all the info he needs? That would relieve a lot of tension for everyone

It's not tough to find his phone number. Why don't you call him yourself?

 

[Inconceivable]

Question- why do all three of our comittees allow mr. Bloch to remain silent for such long periods of time. The guy has to have a phone number, what's the problem with kindly asking him when he will be done now that he has all the info he needs? That would relieve a lot of tension for everyone

arbitrator = private judge

judge = representative of the sovereign

The mindset of most arbitrators is that time means nothing compared to "doing it right".

For an arbitrator or judge "right" means crafting an opinion so bulletproof that it can not be contested or reversed.

 

[SEVEN]

Question- why do all three of our comittees allow mr. Bloch to remain silent for such long periods of time. The guy has to have a phone number, what's the problem with kindly asking him when he will be done now that he has all the info he needs? That would relieve a lot of tension for everyone

Call him and tell him to hustle up. Let me know how that goes for you.

 

[sinkrate]

Question- why do all three of our comittees allow mr. Bloch to remain silent for such long periods of time. The guy has to have a phone number, what's the problem with kindly asking him when he will be done now that he has all the info he needs? That would relieve a lot of tension for everyone

Arbitrators rarely issue their findings/awards on time. Two months late is typical in most cases. The Arbitrator in the Republic SLI was almost four months late with his award. The only option the parties involved have is to ask for their money back and then reschedule with another arbitrator.

It won't surprice me if we don't see this award until August.