Delay of 9E/XJ/9L list

[Flyer1015]

End result is the unity that was created is now gone.

Too true. I don't care what the final view was for XJ, 9E, or 9L. The final views won't matter, only Bloch's final award matters. But what you have now is an intentional, deliberate attempt by a certain group to try and screw the 9E group. XJ and 9L are already on a level playing field with class date DOH. 9E had the correction per LOA2V, but XJ is disputing it by using the two-part definition of date of hire under ALPA merger policy. Sorry, but there is no more unity. I have a copy of JMs email, and I see no unity in it. And if any XJ guy thinks that after this is over, you're gonna sweep elections, then you're as dumb as Palin during the 2008 campaign elections. 1,350 pilots (out of ~2900) are extremely POed at XJ's recent actions, both on May 23 and on June 2. There is no unity, and not only that, the XJ's dispute of intentionally trying to screw 9E over class date seniority is something 9Eers will not forget when it comes time for elections. The last person (or group) I want leading us is one who will bend over backwards to screw 1,350 pilots out of 2900 on integration. It's one thing if everyone was at Point B and Pinnacle was the only one trying to get Point A while others are left behind at B. But that's clearly not the case. XJ and 9L are already at point A, and Pinnacle still stuck at Point B, even though Letter V allows them to come to Point A like the others.

 

[bri5150]

You have a group now grasping at whatever they can to try and help their pilots by screwing another. End result is the unity that was created is now gone.

When was this unity created? Up until this point in SLI there has been nothing but "screw the other guy" mentality that started with 9E's original proposal and discussed here on this forum. Maybe you are talking about the couple days after the almost sabotaged JCBA deal was signed? Yes, there was some unity there for a couple days after everyone got a monster raise and work rule increase except Mesaba (I personally didn't get single cent). I haven't gotten jack crap out of that except for another 15 minutes to get to the airport when scheduling calls. The hope was it would be made up in SLI. We will see I guess, but I am not getting my hopes up.

 

[CptMurf]

Too true. I don't care what the final view was for XJ, 9E, or 9L. The final views won't matter, only Bloch's final award matters. But what you have now is an intentional, deliberate attempt by a certain group to try and screw the 9E group. XJ and 9L are already on a level playing field with class date DOH. 9E had the correction per LOA2V, but XJ is disputing it by using the two-part definition of date of hire under ALPA merger policy. Sorry, but there is no more unity. I have a copy of JMs email, and I see no unity in it. And if any XJ guy thinks that after this is over, you're gonna sweep elections, then you're as dumb as Palin during the 2008 campaign elections. 1,350 pilots (out of ~2900) are extremely POed at XJ's recent actions, both on May 23 and on June 2. There is no unity, and not only that, the XJ's dispute of intentionally trying to screw 9E over class date seniority is something 9Eers will not forget when it comes time for elections. The last person (or group) I want leading us is one who will bend over backwards to screw 1,350 pilots out of 2900 on integration. It's one thing if everyone was at Point B and Pinnacle was the only one trying to get Point A while others are left behind at B. But that's clearly not the case. XJ and 9L are already at point A, and Pinnacle still stuck at Point B, even though Letter V allows them to come to Point A like the others.

The funny part us the other 1500 pilots are pissed at 9Es deliberate efforts to staple them.

 

[Flyer1015]

Considering one union went off the reservation with an unendorsed picketing. Then offered an integration method that was essentially a staple. And a last minute attempt to discredit XJs group with the LGA slot swap. I would say there never was any unity. You yourself said the 9E MEC/SLI was out to get the most they could for their pilots. I believe the same could be said here. And last I heard 9L was in on the dispute also.

I'll address this one by one.

Colgan:
Colgan's dispute is nothing more than them chiming in saying they support XJ's interpretation of the DOH definition by ALPA's merger policy, and that Colgan too had to adjust certain pilots' DOH to comply with the DOH definition of ALPA merger policy. What they conveniently left out is that those pilots needed to have their DOH adjusted because they were employed at Colgan in another position before (for example, a mechanic), and had to have their DOH adjusted to the first day that pilot started pilot initial training class. They cried to the arbitrator that it's not fair we had to adjust our pilots DOH while another group (9E) doesn't have to. That is NOT the same thing as Pinnacle! Every single pilot at Colgan has their DOH already showing as their first day of pilot initial newhire class. This was a back-stabbing attempt to try and get things in their favor, and they supported XJ's dispute.

Integration method:
Of all 3 groups, 9E presented the most amounts of varying methods for integration. When XJ presented DOH and 9L relative, those viewpoints never changed much. By definition, it is clear what relative is and what DOH is. I will argue that it was XJ and 9L who refused to negotiate because they only brought all-or-nothing deals to the table. 9E tried to offer several different methods. The cat/stat method did not have to be a staple. The final form was jet ca, jet fo, prop ca, prop fo, furloughees, 2010 newhires. 9E was willing to talk about an order that was jet ca, prop ca, jet fo, prop fo, furloughees, 2010 newhires. This would not have been a staple job for anyone. Again, 9E tried to bring different views and methods to the table, but it was apparent no one wanted to entertain their views. XJ had a hard-on for DOH, and 9L the same with relative. What unity can you have when your group doesn't even budge from its initial stand point, all the way through negotiations and then finals?

LGA slot swap.
This was never officially entered as a dispute. The way this card was played is that 9E believes that the disputing of the class DOH should have ended on the April 15 end of hearings. And how there is new information regarding turboprop operations affected by a LGA slot swap, but will not enter this information into the record because the hearings window is already closed. That is it. There is no official record of 9E disputing against XJ on this matter. Bloch does not have anything official in any form on the LGA slot swap. There is no dispute. 9E did not pull a fast one as your reps will try and imply.

 

[bri5150]

LGA slot swap.
This was never officially entered as a dispute. The way this card was played is that 9E believes that the disputing of the class DOH should have ended on the April 15 end of hearings. And how there is new information regarding turboprop operations affected by a LGA slot swap, but will not enter this information into the record because the hearings window is already closed. That is it. There is no official record of 9E disputing against XJ on this matter. Bloch does not have anything official in any form on the LGA slot swap. There is no dispute. 9E did not pull a fast one as your reps will try and imply.

The oldest trick in the book. Mention something and say it doesn't matter. If it didn't matter, why was it even brought up? I had to laugh when I read that.

Mr. Bloch,

It is playing dirty to say that Pinnacle Airlines has begun losing their 200's due to poor performance. If this merger never happened, they would have lost at least three of them, and I am sure Delta would be so unhappy with them, they would have lost more. But that's playing dirty, so we won't say that. Sim date for 9E or bust!! Whoooohoooo!!!!

Thank you,

Mesaba MEC
(again, I made this up).

Also, maybe they didn't move off of their starting point because 9E's proposal was so lop-sided they needed to hold their ground in order to get you back into something that was fair?

 

[CptMurf]

I'll address this one by one.

Colgan:
Colgan's dispute is nothing more than them chiming in saying they support XJ's interpretation of the DOH definition by ALPA's merger policy, and that Colgan too had to adjust certain pilots' DOH to comply with the DOH definition of ALPA merger policy. What they conveniently left out is that those pilots needed to have their DOH adjusted because they were employed at Colgan in another position before (for example, a mechanic), and had to have their DOH adjusted to the first day that pilot started pilot initial training class. They cried to the arbitrator that it's not fair we had to adjust our pilots DOH while another group (9E) doesn't have to. That is NOT the same thing as Pinnacle! Every single pilot at Colgan has their DOH already showing as their first day of pilot initial newhire class. This was a back-stabbing attempt to try and get things in their favor, and they supported XJ's dispute.

Integration method:
Of all 3 groups, 9E presented the most amounts of varying methods for integration. When XJ presented DOH and 9L relative, those viewpoints never changed much. By definition, it is clear what relative is and what DOH is. I will argue that it was XJ and 9L who refused to negotiate because they only brought all-or-nothing deals to the table. 9E tried to offer several different methods. The cat/stat method did not have to be a staple. The final form was jet ca, jet fo, prop ca, prop fo, furloughees, 2010 newhires. 9E was willing to talk about an order that was jet ca, prop ca, jet fo, prop fo, furloughees, 2010 newhires. This would not have been a staple job for anyone. Again, 9E tried to bring different views and methods to the table, but it was apparent no one wanted to entertain their views. XJ had a hard-on for DOH, and 9L the same with relative. What unity can you have when your group doesn't even budge from its initial stand point, all the way through negotiations and then finals?

LGA slot swap.
This was never officially entered as a dispute. The way this card was played is that 9E believes that the disputing of the class DOH should have ended on the April 15 end of hearings. And how there is new information regarding turboprop operations affected by a LGA slot swap, but will not enter this information into the record because the hearings window is already closed. That is it. There is no official record of 9E disputing against XJ on this matter. Bloch does not have anything official in any form on the LGA slot swap. There is no dispute. 9E did not pull a fast one as your reps will try and imply.

The fact that Colgan was forced to adjust their list to the ALPA Merger/Frag definition is not in question. They did and for the reasons that you listed. But they are very much in this dispute over the adjustments of DOH. A person that joins a class action lawsuit is just as much in it as the outspoken person that started it.

XJs position was always DOH, you are correct. But there were numerous "give and takes" in the forms of freezes, fences, and the such. They were in no way immobile in their methodology. Status and Catagory could have been fair, but to do that it would have had to have been CJ900 CA, Q400/CJ200 CA, S340 CA, CJ900 FO, Q400/CJ200 FO, S340 FO. Anything less gives an advantage to 9E. Lumping the Jet CAs gives a 2.5-1 in their favor, even though XJ brings 3 times as many of the largest paying aircraft. Even your diluded proposal, only favors you.

The LGA slot swap was brought up. Listed in an email to Bloch. Even though it may have said "we are not bringing a formal dispute", it was not necessary, or moral to bring it up. It should not have been included in ANY of the discussions. The fact that it was brought up, even though not in dispute form, constitutes a shot fired in your senority grab.

 

[e=mc2]

Hey Dip Spit Flyer what does a minor little sqabble with 3 bottom dwelling airlines have to do with Sarah Palin? Once again showing how shallow pilots are, enjoy what you get.

 

[Flyer1015]

The oldest trick in the book. Mention something and say it doesn't matter. If it didn't matter, why was it even brought up? I had to laugh when I read that.

Mr. Bloch,

It is playing dirty to say that Pinnacle Airlines has begun losing their 200's due to poor performance. If this merger never happened, they would have lost at least three of them, and I am sure Delta would be so unhappy with them, they would have lost more. But that's playing dirty, so we won't say that. Sim date for 9E or bust!! Whoooohoooo!!!!

Thank you,

Mesaba MEC
(again, I made this up).

Also, maybe they didn't move off of their starting point because 9E's proposal was so lop-sided they needed to hold their ground in order to get you back into something that was fair?

While the 3 airplanes you mention weren't brought up in an email, it was mentioned by the XJ merger committee that Pinnacle is the only airline so far to lose airplanes for performance issues. So yes, your XJ committe played dirty. As for the 9E's proposals, I really hope they put that information out for everyone. The initial proposals were actually quite fair, but no one entertained them.

 

[bri5150]

The funny part us the other 1500 pilots are pissed at 9Es deliberate efforts to staple them.

Wait, 1500>1300ish? Hmmm. Maybe the leak was made to try and turn the 1300ish against XJ so they can get more votes? Naaahhhh....

 

[Flyer1015]

The LGA slot swap was brought up. Listed in an email to Bloch. Even though it may have said "we are not bringing a formal dispute", it was not necessary, or moral to bring it up. It should not have been included in ANY of the discussions. The fact that it was brought up, even though not in dispute form, constitutes a shot fired in your senority grab.

It was brought up, not entered as a dispute. Moral? Necessary? I think it wasn't moral to bring up something that your group already agreed to. Letter V and the Process/protocol agreement allows changes to a pilot's data until the SLI process is complete. The SLI process is not complete, therefore, per Letter V, Pinnacle pilots will have their DOHs adjusted to the date they commenced training. Class date. Disputing the OBVIOUS, printed in black ink on white paper, constitutes a CANNON fired in YOUR senority grab.

 

[bri5150]

Why is it that it is always Colgan and Mesaba together against Pinnacle? Heck, Colgan and Pinnacle were already owned by the same holding company before this, and had a working relationship.

 

[Flyer1015]

Wait, 1500>1300ish? Hmmm. Maybe the leak was made to try and turn the 1300ish against XJ so they can get more votes? Naaahhhh....

Don't kid yourself. XJ has already shot themselves in the foot with all 1,350 Pinnacle pilots. Add the fact a vacancy closes in less than 48 hours, that is even less movement that XJ pilots can be exposed to. Especially the junior XJ guys. Oops!

 

[gojo]

Too true. I don't care what the final view was for XJ, 9E, or 9L. The final views won't matter, only Bloch's final award matters. But what you have now is an intentional, deliberate attempt by a certain group to try and screw the 9E group. XJ and 9L are already on a level playing field with class date DOH. 9E had the correction per LOA2V, but XJ is disputing it by using the two-part definition of date of hire under ALPA merger policy. Sorry, but there is no more unity. I have a copy of JMs email, and I see no unity in it. And if any XJ guy thinks that after this is over, you're gonna sweep elections, then you're as dumb as Palin during the 2008 campaign elections. 1,350 pilots (out of ~2900) are extremely POed at XJ's recent actions, both on May 23 and on June 2. There is no unity, and not only that, the XJ's dispute of intentionally trying to screw 9E over class date seniority is something 9Eers will not forget when it comes time for elections. The last person (or group) I want leading us is one who will bend over backwards to screw 1,350 pilots out of 2900 on integration. It's one thing if everyone was at Point B and Pinnacle was the only one trying to get Point A while others are left behind at B. But that's clearly not the case. XJ and 9L are already at point A, and Pinnacle still stuck at Point B, even though Letter V allows them to come to Point A like the others.

Flyer, I don't understand why you feel it's ok for one group to act this way and not the others. I'm not saying it is, but Since July 1st much of what I've been hearing from the Pinnacle side has to do with sticking it to the other guys. First there was the 98 LOA and how we should be integrated at 5:1 or if we are lucky 3:1 Then there was the picketing debacle when negotiations were going well. Colgan grew off the backs of Pinnacle pilots, and therefore should be stapeled, outrageous proposals during the SLI process that show a total disregard to Colgan and Mesaba pilots. I keep hearing that is was their job to protect their pilots, and that's why their propasals were so one sided, but before the process even started they agreed to try and find a fair and equitable solution for everyone, not just the 9E group. I know things have been said and done from people at all three companies, but when you speak of unity, your group has no room to talk

 

[Flyer1015]

Why is it that it is always Colgan and Mesaba together against Pinnacle?

Both Mesaba and Colgan already have their class date as DOH. They are arguing against Pinnacle getting class date as DOH. Instead, both want Pinnacle to use the sim date, and are trying to use ALPA's merger policy's two main definitions of date of hire to try and prove their case. So they are together against Pinnacle to try and screw them out of 2-3 months seniority on average.

 

[Flyer1015]

gojo, this is entirely separate. Each group, I will argue, fought hard for their own benefit. DOH benefits mostly XJ, relative benefits mostly Colgan, and stat/cat benefits 9E. But those methods could, and have been, poof! Gone. They are not the final award. Only Bloch's decision will be final. That could be anything. Instead, what you have, is two groups trying to now deliberately screw 9E out of seniority, by using definitions of date of hire.

 

[Flyer1015]

I'm still waiting for a Mesaba pilot to answer the impossible:

Not to mention, in the XJ's attempt to screw over 9E pilots on their seniority, do you realize what the other (impossible) alternative is? The only other alternative would be to align seniority date with sim date of hire. This would mean your sim date DOH would represent your seniority date, regardless of class seniority. This is the new re-alignment that would come if the XJ dispute was awarded. But think about it. The checkrides did not go in order. I went before 3 other older pilots simply because of the way training scheduling worked it out. Under the new method, you'd have to reorder the entire 9E list, and that is not allowed by ALPA bylaws. Not only that, you'd have many people jump over others they are currently junior to, because they took their sim checkride first. For example, I took mine before 3 guys did who are in my class and currently senior to me. If you XJ people want your wish and dispute to come out true, I would have to jump these 3 pilots in seniority and be considered more senior to them because of my "new" seniority being my date of hire on sim check date. This is against merger policy. You are in a catch-22.

The ONLY fair way, without having to go through the illegal mess above, is to accept Letter V and take every pilot's initial pilot newhire class date as their DOH. This is the only fair, clean way that will ensure that nothing gets ugly.

 

[CptMurf]

It was brought up, not entered as a dispute. Moral? Necessary? I think it wasn't moral to bring up something that your group already agreed to. Letter V and the Process/protocol agreement allows changes to a pilot's data until the SLI process is complete. The SLI process is not complete, therefore, per Letter V, Pinnacle pilots will have their DOHs adjusted to the date they commenced training. Class date. Disputing the OBVIOUS, printed in black ink on white paper, constitutes a CANNON fired in YOUR senority grab.

Which brings us full circle to my post on the original intent of the LOA. Forgive me if I don't accept Higneys statement. That's only 9Es side of it, I'm sure that was what his union was implying of wanted with the LOA. That does not mean that was what XJ was signing onto. Think about it... The car salesmen says he'll throw in an extended warranty, but the finance guy doesn't write it into the deal. Do you dispute it? Does that reopen negotiations? Is that a cannon fired, or are you just defending yourself?

 

[bri5150]

Don't kid yourself. XJ has already shot themselves in the foot with all 1,350 Pinnacle pilots. Add the fact a vacancy closes in less than 48 hours, that is even less movement that XJ pilots can be exposed to. Especially the junior XJ guys. Oops!

Yes, one vacancy missed is going to sway XJ pilots to vote for 9E's beautiful information leaking, JCBA sabotaging, staple wanting union leadership. How the hell do you know what was said in commitee meetings this last couple weeks anyways? It wasn't that long ago that it was stated 9E were losing those aircraft. Have they even met since then?

 

[Flyer1015]

Which brings us full circle to my post on the original intent of the LOA. Forgive me if I don't accept Higneys statement. That's only 9Es side of it, I'm sure that was what his union was implying of wanted with the LOA. That does not mean that was what XJ was signing onto. Think about it... The car salesmen says he'll throw in an extended warranty, but the finance guy doesn't write it into the deal. Do you dispute it? Does that reopen negotiations? Is that a cannon fired, or are you just defending yourself?

Higney is a rep who was physically sitting there. What more proof could you want? What you need to do is hold your reps accountable. Everything, in writing, both Letter V and Process/Protocol agreement, allow this change of sim date DOH to class date DOH. Why dispute the obvious?

 

[Flyer1015]

Yes, one vacancy missed is going to sway XJ pilots to vote for 9E's beautiful information leaking, JCBA sabotaging, staple wanting union leadership. How the hell do you know what was said in commitee meetings this last couple weeks anyways? It wasn't that long ago that it was stated 9E were losing those aircraft. Have they even met since then?

9E hasn't leaked any information. 9E has not sabotaged the JCBA. I recommend reading comprehension classes to your merger committee members, they are in dire need of it.