Delay of 9E/XJ/9L list

[bri5150]

Both Mesaba and Colgan already have their class date as DOH. They are arguing against Pinnacle getting class date as DOH. Instead, both want Pinnacle to use the sim date, and are trying to use ALPA's merger policy's two main definitions of date of hire to try and prove their case. So they are together against Pinnacle to try and screw them out of 2-3 months seniority on average.

No, ALWAYS is the key word. That picketing mess 9E was on it's own too. I can't recall a single thing Colgan has gone against Mesaba on.

 

[ChickenSled]

everyone got a monster raise and work rule increase except Mesaba (I personally didn't get single cent). I haven't gotten jack crap out of that except for another 15 minutes to get to the airport when scheduling calls. The hope was it would be made up in SLI. We will see I guess, but I am not getting my hopes up.

You won't get downgraded or furloughed when the Saabs get parked. That is what you were looking at. How quickly we forget. But I guess in that big head of yours, no raise in your seat is somehow worse than downgrading and taking a pay cut or being out on the street.

You are right about one thing, you shouldn't get your hopes up. I'm pretty sure you bunch of arrogant self righteous prima donna's are going to be very disappointed when the dust settles. Your MEC apparently can smell it coming and that is why they are under the table fighting for scraps right now.

 

[CptMurf]

I'm still waiting for a Mesaba pilot to answer the impossible:

Since when does you Seniority order have to be by age in class. Some ALPA carriers use last 4 of SSN. Doesn't answer how to correct you jacked up list. Just pointing out flaws in your logic.

 

[bri5150]

You won't get downgraded or furloughed when the Saabs get parked. That is what you were looking at. How quickly we forget. But I guess in that big head of yours, no raise in your seat is somehow worse than downgrading and taking a pay cut or being out on the street.

You are right about one thing, you shouldn't get your hopes up. I'm pretty sure you bunch of arrogant self righteous prima donna's are going to be very disappointed when the dust settles. Your MEC apparently can smell it coming and that is why they are under the table fighting for scraps right now.

Again the name calling. Is this what our negotiating commitees had to put up with? "I propose DOH." "You arrogant, self righteous prima donna, you will get stapled with Colgan."

 

[CptMurf]

Higney is a rep who was physically sitting there. What more proof could you want? What you need to do is hold your reps accountable. Everything, in writing, both Letter V and Process/Protocol agreement, allow this change of sim date DOH to class date DOH. Why dispute the obvious?

Our reps can put anything in writing, without running it past ALPA legal. Unlike....nevermind.

 

[CptMurf]

You won't get downgraded or furloughed when the CRJs are given away. That is what you are looking at. How quickly we forget. But I guess in that big head of yours, you deserved that big raise.

You are right about one thing, you shouldn't get your hopes up. I'm pretty sure you bunch of arrogant self righteous prima donna's are going to be very disappointed when the dust settles. Your MEC apparently can smell it coming and that is why they are under the table fighting for scraps right now.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Flyer1015]

The bottom line is the Letter V states exactly what it does. Your union signed onto the JCBA and agreed to it. Now if they thought the "intent" was different, then they should have gone through, page by page, and made sure the "intent" was proper. Or, they were like most politicians, and just signed the bill without actually reading through it. Letter V is clearl, concise, and obvious. There is absolutely nothing in Letter V to hint anything about travel benefits. Only XJ could come up with a fairy tale like that.

 

[Flyer1015]

Fixed it for you.

Such arrogance! Are you blind to the fact that all of your Saabs are being parked? The Delta/US Air deal will go through, and the LGA flying will end. Mesaba would have been nothing more than the next Comair, down to 60 RJs only after having at one point been a 100+ aircraft operator. Your writing was on the wall. The 3 planes we lost weren't suppose to be full time at Pinnacle anyway. Two of them were gained during the repainting phase last year, as a way to make up some capacity while our planes hit the Greenville paint shop. These additions were never to be permanent. You comparing our loss of 3 RJs is nothing in comparison to the Saabs. The main difference being the Saabs are gone, per Delta. There is no ASA for them. Pinnacle's RJs have ASAs.

 

[CptMurf]

The bottom line is the Letter V states exactly what it does. Your union signed onto the JCBA and agreed to it. Now if they thought the "intent" was different, then they should have gone through, page by page, and made sure the "intent" was proper. Or, they were like most politicians, and just signed the bill without actually reading through it. Letter V is clearl, concise, and obvious. There is absolutely nothing in Letter V to hint anything about travel benefits. Only XJ could come up with a fairy tale like that.

Not a lawyer but...

V. Pinnacle Pilots’ Date of Hire Correction
A Pinnacle Pilot who is hired prior to February 18, 2011 shall have his date of hire adjusted to the first day such Pilot commenced training, however, the pilot’s longevity date shall not be adjusted.

This does not state for "SLI" or "Travel Benefits" or "Calling 'Shotgun'"

Really, I don't care either way. But are you so closed minded to see that this could not be a valid argument? It's not personal, just a position. A valid one, I think.

 

[CptMurf]

Such arrogance! Are you blind to the fact that all of your Saabs are being parked? The Delta/US Air deal will go through, and the LGA flying will end. Mesaba would have been nothing more than the next Comair, down to 60 RJs only after having at one point been a 100+ aircraft operator. Your writing was on the wall. The 3 planes we lost weren't suppose to be full time at Pinnacle anyway. Two of them were gained during the repainting phase last year, as a way to make up some capacity while our planes hit the Greenville paint shop. These additions were never to be permanent. You comparing our loss of 3 RJs is nothing in comparison to the Saabs. The main difference being the Saabs are gone, per Delta. There is no ASA for them. Pinnacle's RJs have ASAs.

Pot meet kettle.

Do you not realize you bring a large fleet of obsolete aircraft that are and have been on the chopping block. This merger gives you just as much protections are those Saab drivers.

Talk about arrogance.

 

[bri5150]

The date I have on Flyer's email is before the second dispute btw. It looks like what I have, but doesn't show what Mesaba is disputing this time around. I am sure Mr. Bloch put a quick end to the DOH argument, and I propose we do the same. I am also sure there are a few clerical mistakes on the 9E list that are getting fixed right now. I hope we can have a list soon.

 

[gojo]

gojo, this is entirely separate. Each group, I will argue, fought hard for their own benefit. DOH benefits mostly XJ, relative benefits mostly Colgan, and stat/cat benefits 9E. But those methods could, and have been, poof! Gone. They are not the final award. Only Bloch's decision will be final. That could be anything. Instead, what you have, is two groups trying to now deliberately screw 9E out of seniority, by using definitions of date of hire.

How is this different? Just because the SLI wasn't settled before April 15th doesn't take the sting away. The intent was still there. All I'm saying is, this process is divisive by nature, and the current dispute has the same effect on unity as the others I mentioned.

 

[gojo]

You won't get downgraded or furloughed when the Saabs get parked. That is what you were looking at. How quickly we forget. But I guess in that big head of yours, no raise in your seat is somehow worse than downgrading and taking a pay cut or being out on the street.

You are right about one thing, you shouldn't get your hopes up. I'm pretty sure you bunch of arrogant self righteous prima donna's are going to be very disappointed when the dust settles. Your MEC apparently can smell it coming and that is why they are under the table fighting for scraps right now.

All I can say is the last 7 years at Mesaba have been one big roller coster ride, and I'm not that fond of roller coasters. It seems to me that we have spent more time going downhill than uphill. The pros and cons list could be debated from both sides. The one big one many of us lost at Mesaba was the oppertunity to flow up to Delta. And when you speak of arrogance , it is arrogant to think you are immune to negative changes. Look at the once great and mighty Comair.

 

[bri5150]

And when you speak of arrogance , it is arrogant to think you are immune to negative changes. Look at the once great and mighty Comair.

I wish I would have thought of that. Someone said it before; we are a proud pilot group that has been through a lot since I have been here. There is no doubt there will be some turbulent times in the coming years with all the airplanes we have together that nobody wants. It just takes higher fuel prices for some kind of bankruptcy to happen and the ASA's get gutted (seen it happen), or if our performance doesn't come up, then they already have the clause to take more 200's away. I am not sure if there is a maximum amount they can take. Heck, Delta could say our numbers aren't good so they are taking all of them for all I know.

 

[Flyer1015]

Not a lawyer but...

V. Pinnacle Pilots’ Date of Hire Correction
A Pinnacle Pilot who is hired prior to February 18, 2011 shall have his date of hire adjusted to the first day such Pilot commenced training, however, the pilot’s longevity date shall not be adjusted.

This does not state for "SLI" or "Travel Benefits" or "Calling 'Shotgun'"

It doesn't, so why are your reps claiming travel bennies only, and not for SLI? Look, it doesn't matter what the DOH is for. All this is saying that our DOH is being corrected to represent the day we started training. This means class date. Now anything associated with DOH on class date is effective, with the exception listed as longevity. That leaves two things: SLI purposes and as a side benefit, travel bennies will have DOH date.

 

[CptMurf]

It doesn't, so why are your reps claiming travel bennies only, and not for SLI? Look, it doesn't matter what the DOH is for. All this is saying that our DOH is being corrected to represent the day we started training.

Thank You.

This means class date. Now anything associated with DOH on class date is effective, with the exception listed as longevity. That leaves two things: SLI purposes and as a side benefit, travel bennies will have DOH date.

That is what is being debated. Bloch will rule what it implies (hopefully soon). And most likely in your favor.


This is a process, just like a court case, it's not personal.

 

[Flyer1015]

Yes, it is personal. Because XJ's dispute is not using letter V and the potential "confusion" you are implying. XJ's dispute is invoking ALPA's merger policy definition of date of hire. There are two conditions under ALPA merger policy for date of hire. I've already posted that above in this thread, earlier pages. XJ is trying to use that definition to 'prove' we were not fully paid on a company payroll system until our sim checkride DOH.

 

[CptMurf]

I wish I would have thought of that. Someone said it before; we are a proud pilot group that has been through a lot since I have been here. There is no doubt there will be some turbulent times in the coming years with all the airplanes we have together that nobody wants. It just takes higher fuel prices for some kind of bankruptcy to happen and the ASA's get gutted (seen it happen), or if our performance doesn't come up, then they already have the clause to take more 200's away. I am not sure if there is a maximum amount they can take. Heck, Delta could say our numbers aren't good so they are taking all of them for all I know.

I agree. We ALL brought pros and cons into this. The integration should be fair for all, recognize the pros that we each brought, and manage protections to fix or minimize cons. The XJ guys dismiss the "We have an ASA" talk, because we know how quick they can be voided, renegotiated, or ended. We inevitably will be dealing with a -200 reduction down the road. Hopefully we can minimize it with our -900 and Q400 fleet.

 

[Flyer1015]

All I can say is the last 7 years at Mesaba have been one big roller coster ride, and I'm not that fond of roller coasters. It seems to me that we have spent more time going downhill than uphill. The pros and cons list could be debated from both sides. The one big one many of us lost at Mesaba was the oppertunity to flow up to Delta. And when you speak of arrogance , it is arrogant to think you are immune to negative changes. Look at the once great and mighty Comair.

Had Mesaba not been bought, their future was just like Comair's. Both were going from a 100+ aircraft down to 60 RJs (44 in the case of Comair). Mother Delta shows no mercy to wholly owned carriers. Comair is still owned, Mesaba got sold (consider luck factor). Your future is nothing like what ours was. Our ASAs were through 2017 for the 200s. If we lost some 200s due to performance, then that is nothing new. As mentioned before, the two lost were extras given due to others being painted. Mesaba had 60 RJs and about 3 dozen Saabs, all of which are being parked. The 7 for US Air will lose once the gate swap goes through. There is no current services agreement for the Saabs. They are heading to the desert, and will be gone within 16 months. bri and others, your career expectation didn't die when the flow ended to Delta. Your expectations were severly hampered by Delta when they announced parking of Saabs. Like it or not, you'd be looking at being downsized to just 60 CRJs, and 9E did the math that it would be about 710 pilot positions remaining at Mesaba. The rest would be furloughed or downgraded.

 

[CptMurf]

Yes, it is personal. Because XJ's dispute is not using letter V and the potential "confusion" you are implying. XJ's dispute is invoking ALPA's merger policy definition of date of hire. There are two conditions under ALPA merger policy for date of hire. I've already posted that above in this thread, earlier pages. XJ is trying to use that definition to 'prove' we were not fully paid on a company payroll system until our sim checkride DOH.

Uhh...You weren't compensated. Most never were, and the others received a stipend. This was the accepted method of DOH when you accepted the job, and one of the reasons I did not try to work there. Your original DOH actually meets the definition in the ALPA policy, and without the LOA, I don't think you would have a leg to stand on in this. You accepted this fact when you took the job.

If the LOA is used to adjust the DOH. So be it. This is up to Bloch. If you believe Higney, then he has already made his decision on it.

It has nothing to do with my point that the 2 definitions are both fair and valid. This is a process of determining which is to be used. It's not personal, nor is it an attack to your seniority. If anything, assuming the LOA is used, there's gain from ALPAs accepted seniority policy.