Delay of 9E/XJ/9L list

[Flyer1015]

Because disputing something once just isn't enough, disputing twice makes more sense. While two groups already have their DOH as the date they started their pilot class date, yet another dispute is taking place because Pinnacle is getting their pilot class date as DOH. Bloch's request of 'date of hire (seniority date)' has ticked off the same old people, who are outraged Pinnacle pilots might be considered hired on their class date (seniority) as opposed to the day they passed their sim ride. Amazingly classy XJ! Before any XJ pilot (bri5150, xjhawk especially) throws mud at 9E pilots, consider the real source of why the list is being held up: because a *certain* group just can't get over themselves, and accept that all 3 pilot groups should be at a level playing field with their pilot class date as their DOH. And you people are arrogant enough to believe you will win negotiations? Lets see, Mesaba is currently trying to destroy Pinnacle in the SLI process by screwing us out of 2-3 months seniority, while they get their class date as DOH, they are trying to force us to use our sim date. Gee, thanks! I can't wait to vote your guys in! Your merger committee has dug their grave as far as unity is concerned on the 9E side of things.

Good job, truly classless.

 

[bri5150]

I would say disputing something twice if there is something wrong twice would be a good idea. You are assuming that the Mesaba guys are disputing the fact that you are using class date instead of sim date. As I stated on another thread, the email we got said there were "anomalies" on the 9E list. If I were to guess (and that's what it is), an "anomaly" is not every single person on the 9E list having the wrong hire date. Also, if it is the sim date/class date argument still, you would think Mr. Bloch would just say to go one way or the other and it would be done. So, you believe what you want, and I will believe what I want. We will probably never know why the delays are happening right now.

As far as "classless" is concerned, there have been many "classless" things said both ways. Saying we can't get over ourselves is a classless comment. Calling us "arrogant" is classless. Saying someone can "win negotiations" is classless. In fact, your whole post is throwing mud at us and we haven't even said a thing about the latest delay.

I kinda miss when you don't post for a while. Does that mean we are becoming friends?

 

[higney85]

I kinda miss when you don't post for a while. Does that mean we are becoming friends?

It means you guys are married... Internet style.

 

[bri5150]

It means you guys are married... Internet style.

uke: :laugh:

 

[higney85]

uke: :laugh:

Sometimes a little humor is all that's needed..imp:

 

[altimaklr]

Do you really think the XJ-MEC will send out an email saying... "We know we all agreed to DOH but we are disputing it and trying to screw 9E pilots just like the company did when they got hired the first time."

 

[bri5150]

Do you really think the XJ-MEC will send out an email saying... "We know we all agreed to DOH but we are disputing it and trying to screw 9E pilots just like the company did when they got hired the first time."

Do you really think Mesaba is disputing something that is in black and white as an LOA in our contract? They may be disputing the dates were calculated wrong, but not disputing the fact 9E is using their class dates.

 

[gojo]

Do you really think the XJ-MEC will send out an email saying... "We know we all agreed to DOH but we are disputing it and trying to screw 9E pilots just like the company did when they got hired the first time."

Well, I would hope so. They have always been good at communicating to the pilot group. The lack of information doeshave me a little frustrated, but at this point I still trust them.

 

[mesaba13]

Flyer1015

Is this how you handle yourself on the line? Jump to all kinds of crazy conclusions without any/all of the information? The only way you could possibly have all the facts is if you were in the meetings, and if you were in the meetings then you should not be posting on this board. Just like I said last week, if the Mesaba argue-ments were without merit, Bloch would have ruled long ago, Period!

 

[Flyprdu]

I've seen the dispute email to Bloch from the Mesaba MEC. Class date DOH is EXACTLY what they are disputing.

God only knows what the extended delay from Bloch is about.

 

[Flyer1015]

Flyprdu is correct. To anyone doubting the fact, ask your Mesaba merger committee to send you a copy of the dispute. Believe it or not, a copy of the actual dispute was posted on another website. Yes, the initial dispute email from the Mesaba merger committee chairman himself. Rumors have been confirmed that the class date DOH is the main dispute, the main holdup. I made a copy of that post before it was deleted due to being confidential information. I don't think posting it publicly is a good idea, but rest assured, I guarantee you that the dispute is regarding 9E using their class date as DOH, as opposed to DOH. Ask your merger committee member himself, and he should be truthful. And for those who have seen the "confidential" email, we know.

 

[bri5150]

I've seen the dispute email to Bloch from the Mesaba MEC. Class date DOH is EXACTLY what they are disputing.

God only knows what the extended delay from Bloch is about.

So if that is true, are they disputing that you are using class date DOH, or that the class date DOH's are wrong? Those are two completely different things. Also, how do all these 9E guys see confidential emails? Why do the union guys spout off info on a public forum? If that was the dispute with the last list, why is it still a dispute with the this list? None of what you are saying passes the sniff test. I am not saying you are wrong, but it doesn't make sense. Well, it's been long enough now that he will want another updated list by the time all the lists are corrected this time around. Yay!!! :beer:

 

[bri5150]

Dear Mr. Bloch,

The Mesaba MEC hearby requests that you staple the Pinnacle pilots behind us and Colgan.

Thank you,

The Mesaba MEC



There, now I posted the email that they sent requesting a staple of Pinnacle pilots. It must be true, it's right there.

p.s. so I don't get in trouble, obviously I made up that email.

 

[altimaklr]

Instead of complaining about a leaked email, why don't you actually call a rep and quit denying the truth? (A: You already know it's true)

 

[xjhawk]

how I find this so fun. I love being called out-even when it is such an exaggeration and only touches the truth (just barely). Lets get the facts out there on what I really believe. First I think it would be more than fair to have everyone's DOH be on even ground-first day of class. I also think that what Colgan and 9E presented in their final draft to Bloch on basically screwing Colgan and the bottom part of the Mesaba list. I also have been told and do not think there is a reason to disbelieve that there is a legal standing to challenge 9E's DOH claims-and since your representation clearly was out to screw everyone but themselves, I stand by challenging the DOH-I ask once again, what does your badge say is your DOH? What does your company and ALPA define as your DOH? Yes you will be mad-I do not care. I was mad at all the crap I have been hearing from many classless 9E guys who to my face were saying things such as....."offer us jobs after they take all our jets" (staple)......."give us 5:1 or 3:1 if we are lucky" "we bought you" All the while I and 99% of all the XJ pilots I know have only wanted something to be fair-knowing that fair means most are not happy. So call me a dick, call me out-but know that I want something fair. But if you want to bring a stapler to this fight, I will bring a shovel. Besides, DOH would be better for more 9E pilots than that of XJ, but yet your union basically wants a staple? I could go on, but some of you 9E guys on here are in a perpetual state of drinking your unions cool aid-what have they done for you in the last 9 years?

 

[bri5150]

Instead of complaining about a leaked email, why don't you actually call a rep and quit denying the truth? (A: You already know it's true)

How can I deny the truth when I don't know what it is? I already stated I don't know, but it doesn't pass the sniff test. I have a text into a rep. I've read on other forums pretty specific "anomalies" that have nothing to do with disputing you guys using class date (again, on a forum, so I can believe that as much as the leaked email and anything else that's posted here). I have an email from my union that states there were anomalies, and that's what I am going with rather than an email that should have been confidential and was posted to a public forum in which anyone could have wrote (possibly including some union reps to get the pilot group wriled up (sp?)). What you all are stating is happening makes no sense. What I am reading on other forums makes more sense as stuff to dispute (even more than once if it happened).

 

[xjhawk]

oh and i know some 9E guys-the ones I know personally-they are great guys. They, like me just want something fair-but they do not tell me what they think of their unions proposal-we would rather talk about something else. What I do know is that they think their union has not done much for them in the last few years. My union has fought for my pilot group-sometimes with both hands tied (bankruptcy) and gotten the best they could. I did not and do not agree with everything that they give us, but i know they will tell me the truth (even though sometimes I think its padded with fluff once in a while-for example.....current reserve rules......PBS.....are not good and such... )

 

[Flyer1015]

Let me put it this way. The official leaked email raised a little bit of a hell storm within the 3 groups. It was suppose to be private information, but it got posted somehow. It didn't last long, moderators deleted it. Luckily, I copied and pasted it into a notepad on my home computer. It is an email that is signed by Jeril himself, the main Mesaba merger committee chairman. It has proven to be an accurate email. It was an embarassment that the dispute made it public, but even more embarassing to read what the actual dispute was about!!!! I don't want to post it here, I'm sure the XJ merger committee would hate to see that info made public. But take it from those who have seen the leaked email: it has nothing to do with an erroneous "data point" or any random stuff like that. It has 100% to do with Pinnacle's seniority date being class date column, instead of the sim date column. Ask your XJ merger committee, they should share it. Ask J himself. They have nothing to lose since it leaked anyway.

 

[bri5150]

Let me put it this way. The official leaked email raised a little bit of a hell storm within the 3 groups. It was suppose to be private information, but it got posted somehow. It didn't last long, moderators deleted it. Luckily, I copied and pasted it into a notepad on my home computer. It is an email that is signed by Jeril himself, the main Mesaba merger committee chairman. It has proven to be an accurate email. It was an embarassment that the dispute made it public, but even more embarassing to read what the actual dispute was about!!!! I don't want to post it here, I'm sure the XJ merger committee would hate to see that info made public. But take it from those who have seen the leaked email: it has nothing to do with an erroneous "data point" or any random stuff like that. It has 100% to do with Pinnacle's seniority date being class date column, instead of the sim date column. Ask your XJ merger committee, they should share it. Ask J himself. They have nothing to lose since it leaked anyway.

Was it signed like this:

Thank You,
J M (with full name)

How was it proven to be an accurate email? How do you know there has been a "hell storm" between all 3 groups? Should you be banned again for using a name on FI.com? Should we actually be disputing this because your DOH is in fact sim date? Why hasn't Mr. Bloch just said yes or no to changing 9E DOH? Is it even more embarassing to have a vocal part of your pilot group talk the way they have in the past year? Does Star Wars take place in the future or the past?

 

[marycon]

Was it signed like this:

Thank You,
J M (with full name)

How was it proven to be an accurate email? How do you know there has been a "hell storm" between all 3 groups? Should you be banned again for using a name on FI.com? Should we actually be disputing this because your DOH is in fact sim date? Why hasn't Mr. Bloch just said yes or no to changing 9E DOH? Is it even more embarassing to have a vocal part of your pilot group talk the way they have in the past year? Does Star Wars take place in the future or the past?

I don't know anything about phantom emails or what's going on with this list... nor do I really care.

But I am darn sure that Star Wars took place in the past. Hence the whole "a long time ago in a galaxy far far away".

 

[Flyer1015]

Was it signed like this:

Thank You,
J M (with full name)

How was it proven to be an accurate email? How do you know there has been a "hell storm" between all 3 groups? Should you be banned again for using a name on FI.com? Should we actually be disputing this because your DOH is in fact sim date? Why hasn't Mr. Bloch just said yes or no to changing 9E DOH? Is it even more embarassing to have a vocal part of your pilot group talk the way they have in the past year? Does Star Wars take place in the future or the past?

Yes it was signed that way. And underneath JM's name, it said MSA MEC Merger Committee Chairman. That email is no longer on another forum, it was deleted. Again, ask your committee members, any one of the three. And to be clear, I was not banned from FI because of using a name. I was banned for 10 days for creative swearing in regards to someone too fat to fly (separate thread). Now, you state that my DOH is in fact sim date, and that is no longer correct, not since JCBA was signed in with LOA #2 Transition Agreement. My DOH has been corrected to my class date. As for Mr. Bloch, he hasn't reached a decision yet on the SLI. He is too busy trying to deal with a certain group that has disputed twice since the April 15th hearings/arguments closed.

 

[bri5150]

I don't know anything about phantom emails or what's going on with this list... nor do I really care.

But I am darn sure that Star Wars took place in the past. Hence the whole "a long time ago in a galaxy far far away".

*clap, clap, clap* Most people don't know that, but they know the quote there.

 

[bri5150]

Yes it was signed that way. And underneath JM's name, it said MSA MEC Merger Committee Chairman. That email is no longer on another forum, it was deleted. Again, ask your committee members, any one of the three. And to be clear, I was not banned from FI because of using a name. I was banned for 10 days for creative swearing in regards to someone too fat to fly (separate thread). Now, you state that my DOH is in fact sim date, and that is no longer correct, not since JCBA was signed in with LOA #2 Transition Agreement. My DOH has been corrected to my class date. As for Mr. Bloch, he hasn't reached a decision yet on the SLI. He is too busy trying to deal with a certain group that has disputed twice since the April 15th hearings/arguments closed.

Okay, I will make my opinion known that I think that email is a fake (just my opinion and I have not even seen it of course). I have texted my rep and am waiting for a reply. This still isn't passing the smell test. It makes no sense to dispute something that is in black and white twice. Also, Mr. Bloch could put that dispute to rest real quick.

 

[AiRegency]

Why do I have the feeling that there is no evidence strong enough to convince you the dispute is over DOH on class date vs sim ride. Its like this has become your new religious belief.

 

[bri5150]

Why do I have the feeling that there is no evidence strong enough to convince you the dispute is over DOH on class date vs sim ride. Its like this has become your new religious belief.

Oh, there is. A "leaked email" on a forum that I didn't even see isn't strong enough, I am sorry. When I start hearing from people I trust, and not strangers, I will believe the evidence. Maybe you are right. I should just trust everything on FI.com (or a post on FI about another web board). I would even accept something from one of the Mesaba guys on here honestly. If Murph, Seven, or XJhawk said they hear about that email and it was true, I would go with that. Heck, that forum he got it from was probably a Pinnacle forum. Otherwise some XJ guys would have probably seen it and spoken up as well.

 

[Flyer1015]

A certain group is disputing our change of our DOH from sim date to class date. That certain group is using the ALPA Merger policy as the driving force of their dispute, and are using the two conditions that are necessary under ALPA Merger policy. One, that a date of hire is a date when a pilot first appears upon the Companys payroll as a pilot. The second point under ALPA merger policy in defining a date of hire is when a pilot begins initial operational training required to perform his duties in airline operations. The argument, of course, being that we 9E pilots were not paid on a payroll on our class date, and that we were only officially paid on a payroll system on our sim date of hire.

You can choose to ignore facts, or you can choose to talk to your reps, and then get those same facts for yourself.

 

[mesaba13]

If 9E keeps talking about Saabs going away and stapling Colgan then why can't Mesaba use every advantage to do the best for their group? A soon as 9E is willing to admit that XJ is an equal partner in this, than I am all for
9E getting DOH as the day they started class.

 

[xjhawk]

Flyer1015-I think the point you are making is pretty much what I heard-that is just one point of fact that has not been consistent with your seniority list. The issues are how there can be so many errors AND the fact that LOA 2 was about nonREV rights and not your DOH when it comes to SLI (or pay or anything else with Pinnacle Airlines-AND ALPA)

I have stated before and will again. I think if everyone had the same point in time (class date) and that was your official DOH I would be fine with it. I was even unaware that the company you chose to accept a job with had that policy. I would have been fine with an "adjustment"-if that was agreed upon (which I have heard it was not for SLI purposes). I have, since the crappy proposal by your merger committee, changed my mind and think that you should get what you have been trying to give. I think 9E DOH should be what is on their badge and what ALPA defines as DOH and what your company defines as your DOH. I do not like hearing from your pilots here and at work that you bought us, that our jets are yours and we will be offered jobs, nor do I like some idiot captain in DTW telling me I should get 5:1 or if I am lucky 3:1 seniority. So therefore-I think until your list is correct (DOH and every other line), I will agree with my union that it needs to be looked at by Bloch.

Oh and if it were as simple as yes LOA#2 was in your favor-Bloch would have been done yesterday....so therefore he must see something that does not look right and needs more time to see what your SLI committee is up too

in the past......

 

[Flyer1015]

If 9E keeps talking about Saabs going away and stapling Colgan then why can't Mesaba use every advantage to do the best for their group? A soon as 9E is willing to admit that XJ is an equal partner in this, than I am all for
9E getting DOH as the day they started class.

9E hasn't talked about positions since the closing arguments. XJ proposed DOH, Colgan proposed relative, and 9E proposed status/category method of 6 groups: jet CA, jet FO, prop CA, prop FO, furloughs, 2010 newhires. Those were the final positions, and that was all. Bloch will decide the actual integration forumla. The difference is that XJ is playing dirty. The dispute window closed with closing arguments of hearings on April 15. If you had a grudge, it should have been taken care of back then. Now, they are fighting dirty and disputing twice on the same topic. The time to fight already ended, but apparently, not for XJ.

 

[Flyer1015]

Flyer1015-I think the point you are making is pretty much what I heard-that is just one point of fact that has not been consistent with your seniority list. The issues are how there can be so many errors AND the fact that LOA 2 was about nonREV rights and not your DOH when it comes to SLI (or pay or anything else with Pinnacle Airlines-AND ALPA)

Another uneducated XJ pilot. LOA #2 had nothing to do with non-rev rights. Here is Letter V posted for you, word for word.


V. Pinnacle Pilots’ Date of Hire Correction
A Pinnacle Pilot who is hired prior to February 18, 2011 shall have his date of hire adjusted to the first day such Pilot commenced training, however, the pilot’s longevity date shall not be adjusted.

Read that again. A pilot shall have his date of hire (yes, that is DOH) adjusted to the FIRST DAY such pilot commenced training! That means class date. Where do you get anything about non-rev benefits out of this part of the contract? Somebody on the XJ side has got to be spreading lies. The intent of V. is to correct our date of hire from sim date to the day we commenced training, our class date.

Is reading comprehension not a pre-requisite to be on a merger committee?