Deal reached on new pilot hours

[ualdriver]

Nobody is dismissing anything. Four year degrees are nice to have. I don't think anyone anywhere has ever said that a 4year is a bad thing.

Yes, you are. In your post above, you stated the following:

Are they somehow "better" than a pilot with a HS education who went straight into an aviation career? Of course not!

If a college education doesn't make one a "better" pilot, then you're dismissing the value of the education that I and many others have received. When I was in high school, I wanted to be a pilot. I went to college so that I could be a "better" pilot. The education that I paid for in money and personal sacrifice made me a "better" pilot than the pilot I would have been had I simply graduated from high school and gone directly into the profession. You obviously disagree with that, or I assume you wouldn't have said, "Of course not!" You are therefore dismissing the value of the education that I and many others on this forum had received. I think that you are wrong in that belief.

 

[acpilot]

So, a four year makes you a better pilot than an HS grad?

 

[Caveman]

Wow, you wasted your time getting a 10th grade education? He11, don't you know that a smart 8th grader could fly an airplane just fine? I don't see the point wasting one's time in anything about the 8th grade level. I mean, the Amish do it and they're going strong. Have you seen the way they can handle a tractor- with no rubber on the wheels nonetheless!! What are you really going to learn in High School, anyway? I spent SO much wasted time reading the classics, learning geometry, trigonometry, world history, calculus, computer programming languages, social sciences, etc., and to tell you the truth I really never use any of those skills in my job as a pilot. When's the last time your airline asked you to calculate the area under a curve or about the rise of Hitler in Germany after WW I? What a waste of information!! If only I could turn back the clock and do it right....

You and Kalifornia just can't stomach the idea an 'uneducated' cretin like me is just as professional and skilled as you are. You're also pretty defensive about it. I think I know why. Everything you believed about Riddle has just been proven WRONG. I'm living proof the $100K you dropped to learn about aeroscience was unnecessary. That's gotta sting. Plus, it's disheartening having the riff-raff hanging around the country club. I get that.

I support going to college and if I had to do it all over again I would certainly do things differently. Quitting school one month into my junior year wasn't just some dumb kid making a stupid mistake. There were extenuating circumstances that are none of your business. I won't bore you with the details, but suffice it to say I come from the School of Hard Knocks. I'm not bragging or complaining. It's just the way it was. I was fortunate the way things turned out. It could have been much, much worse.

BTW, for all the youngsters out there that might be reading this: STAY IN SCHOOL. I got lucky. Most folks in my shoes don't make it as far as I did in this business. Graduating from college will greatly improve your chances of becoming a pro pilot. What you learn won't make you a better pilot, but it will make you a better person. Besides, without a degree your chances of getting an interview at a major these days are almost zero . It can be done, but the odds are stacked heavily against you. If for no other reason than that you have to get your degree.

UAL, Kalifornia, Yip and I are all correct even though we disagree on a few points. College has almost nothing to do with being a good pilot. It has everything to do with being successful. Just because you read about one guy that made it in through the side door doesn't mean that's a viable plan. Stay in school.

 

[pilotyip]

Wwii

So, a four year makes you a better pilot than an HS grad?

WWII was a pretty good testing ground of pilot's skills and there was no difference in performance between the HS grad and college grad. Hap Arnold was also hung up on the college degree thing being a West Point graduate. However Robert Lovett a WWI Navy pilot and college drop out, who was appointed the first Secretary of the Air Force (Army Air Corp at the time) by FDR, told him he was filling his cockpits with the wrong guys. He would also not be able to produce the number of pilots needed to fill WWII cockpits with this limitation. He gave the college grads the aptitude test that tested for the traits needed to succeed in the cockpit. Many college grads did not pass the test. However there was a high pass rate by the non-graduates.

 

[CX880]

Nobody is questioning the VALUE of an education (an education is priceless), only whether or not is is required to safely and efficiently fly an airplane.

Many of the younger pilots are graduating with degrees in flyology from ERAU, AzSU, etc. The vast majority know NOTHING outside of aviation and are just plain boring to talk to. For all intents and purposes, they should be considered vocational school grads. Are they somehow "better" than a pilot with a HS education who went straight into an aviation career? Of course not!

Are you on acid?? You are the only one that keeps arguing against your self. No one else is saying that it's required to safely and efficiently fly an airplane!

And I agree ERAU should not be considered a formal education. How beneficial is 2 hours of FMS 101 every other day????

 

[CX880]

WWII was a pretty good testing ground of pilot's skills and there was no difference in performance between the HS grad and college grad. Hap Arnold was also hung up on the college degree thing being a West Point graduate. However Robert Lovett a WWI Navy pilot and college drop out, who was appointed the first Secretary of the Air Force (Army Air Corp at the time) by FDR, told him he was filling his cockpits with the wrong guys. He would also not be able to produce the number of pilots needed to fill WWII cockpits with this limitation. He gave the college grads the aptitude test that tested for the traits needed to succeed in the cockpit. Many college grads did not pass the test. However there was a high pass rate by the non-graduates.

Sounds to me like you're still stuck 70 years ago. It's called evolution. Now a college education is as common as an elementary education.

 

[pilotyip]

couldn't agree more?

Sounds to me like you're still stuck 70 years ago. It's called evolution. Now a college education is as common as an elementary education.

Anyone can get a college degree, good for them,. I mean I even got a couple and look what is has done for me. But it has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Let me give you the background on the college degree thing. I do not judge a man by his degree, where he lives, or what he does for a living. I judge a man on the content of his character. I find the college degrees only crowd here, a bit arrogant, a smacking of if you do not have a degree you are not as good as me. I know too many people who are successful and fine men who do not have a degrees, I know many people with degrees who will never make any impact upon anything. I know too many pilots without degrees who I consider some of the most successful people I know I admire them and the lives they have built. So I bait, about the non-importance of the college degree in this business. I think this sets off the college degree only crowd because it distorts their view of what they have done. Secondarily my pilot heroes did not have college degrees and they performed feats that would test the metal of anyone. They flew in WWII, George Bush I in the Pacific, the 10,000’s of B-17 and B-24 pilots in Europe, and the C-46 pilots over the hump in China. I meet these guys on the air show circuit, they come to see the C-47 and B-17, and I ask them about their adventures during the war. I am in awe of what they did. How can anyone say these guys without degrees were not as good as today’s degreed pilots?

 

[Quimby]

Please tell me I'm missing sarcasm here...

Glad I'm not the only one...

 

[Tristar]

I said it before, I'll repost and say it again since some on here keep thinking the issue is whether a degree is required to be capable of manipulating an aircraft - it's not, and that IS NOT the point.

Once upon a time you could also find presidents of banks, CEO's of major corporations, engineers, and even doctors without degrees. They evolved, embraced the concept that being a professional required higher levels of education. Conceivably you could possess all of the knowledge to do any of those jobs without a college degree - what do you think the odds are of being hired or respected within those communities?

As has been said, it isn't a matter of the degree being necessary to yank and bank. It is a matter of recognizing that we need to evolve and move forward if we hope to ever improve the profession.

Yip, no disrespect intended here, but it is a funny coincidence that you seem to be the one who is most adamant that it's not necessary. I see a connection in that if a degree were required, there would probably be a significant reduction in the pool of pilots you have to draw from and/or your turnover rate would probably be even higher. You yourself state no one dreams of working for JUS and those who do are essentially those who "can't find a job elsewhere." I'm guessing some of those are limited in their career options by that very lack of a degree.

CAVEMAN said: UAL, Kalifornia, Yip and I are all correct even though we disagree on a few points. College has almost nothing to do with being a good pilot. It has everything to do with being successful. Just because you read about one guy that made it in through the side door doesn't mean that's a viable plan. Stay in school. {emphasis mine}

This is completely correct. When they make me czar (waiting for that call any day now), I would set up a system somewhat akin to what I understand the AMA or Bar association have. I would REQUIRE courses beyond just flying/fixing aircraft. You're paying for a college education, you should be receiving more than a technical school education. I say this as a graduate of a university aviation program (Purdue, maintenance and flight). I do think I received excellent training in my major, and while I certainly did have a number of general education courses (math, communication, science, psych, and more), I'd require more than I had with the goal of producing a well rounded graduate.

(PS - before those of you who don't have a degree wet yourselves, I'd grandfather anyone who is currently a 121 pilot without a degree)

 

[pilotyip]

It has been posted that I am anti-college degree. Nothing could is further from the truth. The country needs all the college-educated citizens it can have, its raises the level of knowledge to keep this as the greatest country in the world. Real degrees in business, engineering, the sciences, math, and medicine provide a graduate with marketable skills. If you are going to go to college, get a real degree from a real university. Do not spend four years getting a degree in Women’s Studies. The college degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Many have posted they agree it has nothing to do with the mastering on an airplane. I have admitted that the possession of a degree may open doors at a few select places of employment in the airline industry. If a potential pilot feels they will only be pleased in life if they get an interview with FedEx, then that prospective pilot should go to college. If a prospective pilots just loves flying airplanes, and would be happy making $70-$100K per year with no debt from college loans, a college degree is not necessary. Many prospective pilots may be steered into attending college when they are not college material, not because of a lack basic intelligence, but because it is not important to them. These pilots want to get on with their lives flying airplanes. I have seen too many non-degreed pilots reach a good career position with out a degree. My advice is go to school part time or community college and fly, pilots get hired because they have flight time. Flt time moves you up the food chain to better jobs; the degree is not needed until the last step. You can go to school part time with a full time flying job, you cannot build real flight time while going to school full time. I have seen non-degreed guys go to the Nationals in their mid-20’s. I guess we are getting very politically correct and having an option different that someone else’s is not allowed. I continually see the “If you do not have college degree you are not as good as me” I can not accept that, I just too many people who I admire who do not have degrees. BTW aT JUS almost every pilot has a college degree, because everyone has them.