DAL Wants...

[Tim47SIP]

Not for DCI

If DALPA gives DCI 79 200 seat jets, my job is history along with a thousand + others.


Your right! But I think it was 200 - 79 seaters.

 

[surplus1]

Observation: As of now, the DL pilots have not yet agreed to anything so perhaps the bashing is a tad premature.

Having said that, I"ve been waiting for someone to ask the obvious question but no one has so I'll put my neck on the chopping block.

Assumption #1 - The Delta pilots indicate they are willing to agree with the proposal and the "new" 100-seat rates for airplanes they don't have the money to buy.

Assumption # 2 - A third party figures out that they may do so, and offers to fly the same 100-seat airplane for 15% less, and that 3rd party has the money to buy it at no capital cost to DAL.

Question - What's the DL pilots next move? Do they punt or do they bid again in the hope of recovering the off-side kick?

Maybe Chubby Checker should try to revive that old song - "how low can you go".

Mainline management has already forced regional pilots to "bid" against each other for their flying. Now mainline management is forcing mainline pilots to "bid" against each other for their flying AND to underbid regional pilots for "new" flying (with no guarantee that they will ever get it).

Anybody want to guess how long it will be before management forces maninline and regional to bid against each other for the same flying?

Meanwhile back at the ranch our coaches (the union) happily foster the infighting between our team members at all conceivable levels and pray for a miracle.

Psssst! Management is winning the game and this is the last quarter.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Sometimes that Surplus is a pretty smart guy!!!

I agree! I think you nailed it. I also think our Union is to buisy trying to manipulate the direction the industry is going to benifit a certain few. It is kind of like a mosquito screwing and elephant. They need to get over their agenda and figure out how to best address this changing tide.

 

[michael707767]

Observation: As of now, the DL pilots have not yet agreed to anything so perhaps the bashing is a tad premature.

Having said that, I"ve been waiting for someone to ask the obvious question but no one has so I'll put my neck on the chopping block.

Assumption #1 - The Delta pilots indicate they are willing to agree with the proposal and the "new" 100-seat rates for airplanes they don't have the money to buy.

actually Surplus, this is not a speculative question. Delta does have the money to buy a 100 seater. The DIP financing they recieved includes money for some new aircraft. GG talked about it down in the lounge, my chief pilot told me the same thing, and even my union reps have confirmed it. Also, go back and read the press releases about Deltas DIP financing. It mentions it in there.

However, I do agree they will continue playing groups off each other. Look at AWA. They got the EMB-190, but at the price of allowing more CRJ-900s. No doubt AWA management will use that against them down the road.

 

[michael707767]

Typical pilots - only care about themselves. Could care less about the 40,000+ other Delta emplyees that will be affected by "parking aircraft"
.

I do care about the 40,000 other employees. But I don't care enough to roll over and take it in the a*s from the company either. We will fight for the best deal we can get. I am not ignorant enough to think we can avoid more concessions. But we don't have to give away the farm. What the company is asking for would just about wipe out the narrowbody flying at the mainline. That affects more than just pilots. FAs, mechanics, gate agents, etc will all lose thier jobs if that flying goes to DCI. The jobs we end up fighting for may just be your jobs.

 

[CheapFlyer]

However, I do agree they will continue playing groups off each other. Look at AWA. They got the EMB-190, but at the price of allowing more CRJ-900s. No doubt AWA management will use that against them down the road.

Surplus came up with a great question: "How low will you go?". If management suceeds in pitting mainline pilots against regional pilots, which I believe they will, you need to start asking yourself this question. I highly doubt mainline pilots would win a bidding war with regional pilots. After all, we have SJS and you don't!

-CF

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I think you need to relax a bit! The title of this thread is called "DAL wants...". This is not exactly what the Delta pilots want, but much of it will be forced upon them. Hopefully they will be able to bargain and keep the pain to a minimum.


-CF

CF,

I wish I could agree with you but I think you're incorrect. Look at what happened over at Alaska. The federal arbitrator gave AS managment a larger paycut than they asked for. AS is and was nowhere close to bankruptcy and enjoys a very lucrative Alaska market where they face no competition from other major US carriers. I'm referring to the flying that remains in Alaska itself not the flying between ANC and the lower 48.

I hope all the Bush fans are happy with who they put in the White House. Right now managment has been provided a green light do whatever they please with labor. Want more of the same? Just keep voting for deficit raising labor hating republicans.

We'll have a chance next year to start shifting the balance of power.

 

[surplus1]

After all, we have SJS and you don't!
-CF

Actually regional pilots have LJS (large jet syndrome), which is why they have allowed themselves to be played as suckers for so long. Any day now they're all going to get 1000 PIC and be hired at JB where they can fly the E-190 "heavy" for 37 bucks. Of couse they'll all upgrade in a year, after which they can fly it for 72. In 5 years they can upgrade to the "super heavy" A320 and fly that for 121, with the added benefit of being able to fly to FAR's on the new and inproved JB promoted standard of 10 hrs/day. (Assuming of course that JB hasn't had to lower that so they can stay "competitive" with U and DL).

Whoopie!

 

[surplus1]

We'll have a chance next year to start shifting the balance of power.

True, but by the time 2008 rolls around we'll be so far in the hole that it will take 25 years to recover. I don't have that long. Lucky you if you do.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Actually regional pilots have LJS (large jet syndrome), which is why they have allowed themselves to be played as suckers for so long. Any day now they're all going to get 1000 PIC and be hired at JB where they can fly the E-190 "heavy" for 37 bucks. Of couse they'll all upgrade in a year, after which they can fly it for 72. In 5 years they can upgrade to the "super heavy" A320 and fly that for 121, with the added benefit of being able to fly to FAR's on the new and inproved JB promoted standard of 10 hrs/day. (Assuming of course that JB hasn't had to lower that so they can stay "competitive" with U and DL).

Whoopie!

Well said Surplus. Your correct that this "SJS" is really more of a case of "LJS". My understanding is that the ALPA BSIC Clinic in Herndon VA. is trying to come up with a vaccine for this, but they can't diagnose it. They are having difficulty deciding whether this syndrome starts at 37 seats, 40 seats, 44 seats, 50 seats, 69 seats, 70 seats, 78 seats, or 90 seats. I think they have decided that the best cure would be to just ignore the symptoms.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

True, but by the time 2008 rolls around we'll be so far in the hole that it will take 25 years to recover. I don't have that long. Lucky you if you do.

I haven't figured how many seat in the House will be up for grabs but Congress has the ability to put a check on the president's powers. We're already fundamentally hosed on a few Supreme Court appointments. Vote Democrat. Live better.

 

[CheapFlyer]

CF,

I wish I could agree with you but I think you're incorrect. Look at what happened over at Alaska.

Dave,

Where exactly do you think I am incorrect?

I stated that what is being "requested" from the DAL pilots is *NOT* what the pilots want - its what management wants. Furthermore, I said unfortunatly much of the "requests" will be forced upon them. HOPEFULLY they will be able to bargain a bit and meet somewhere in between.

This is of course speculation...

-CF

 

[JI Gone OH]

You "mainline" guys are kind of pi$$in me off. You have cried for years that the regionals have taken your flying, taken your routes etc. The regionals have "lowered the bar" to get more growth, bigger airplanes etc. You have bitched that "if only they would stand up and not take it anymore" "stop the race to the bottom" The regionals have only done this because it has (they think) benefitted them, with quick upgrades and the like. Now that you have to make the choice of take a stand or lose out, you fold like a house of cards. You could now be accused of "lowering the bar" to save yourselves, which I guess is okay because you work for a mainline carrier and must be saved at all costs. I call BS, practice what you preach. Don't "lower the bar", take a stand, take one for the team and some other choice sound bites I have heard over the years. Seesh..... It Sure Sucks When The Shoe Is On The Other Foot.

My sentiments exactly.... If the regionals take cuts or freezes to secure growth, we lower the bar. Mainline does it and it's "self preservation." Hypocrits.....

 

[michael707767]

My sentiments exactly.... If the regionals take cuts or freezes to secure growth, we lower the bar. Mainline does it and it's "self preservation." Hypocrits.....

Know what, mainline has not done anything yet. And if we do end up with a low pay rate on a 100 seater, its not like we had much choice. We are in bankruptcy. We have very little leverage. We will do the best we can but in the end its largely out of our hands.

 

[surplus1]

Sometimes that Surplus is a pretty smart guy!!!

Sometimes? Oh ye of little faith!

 

[DL_Infidel]

If DALPA gives DCI 79 200 seat jets, my job is history along with a thousand + others.


You're right! But I think it was 200 - 79 seaters.

You are right! That's what I meant. Thanks for correcting this selfish and arrogant DL pilot (we are all that way you know-TIC). Also, thanks for not name calling. Some people feel the need to get their shots in.

 

[dtfl]

To clear some things up - got this off of the DALPA board -

"In the name of accuracy, I have recieved some new information. A friend of mine from DFW called me, said he had spoken to a Chief Pilot and that what ALPA told me was wrong. He said they are not going after 200 79 seaters in addition to the current 70 seaters. The ch pilot told him what Delta wants is to change the definition from 70 seats to 79 seats and change the number limit from 150 to 200. Which would mean an additional 50 RJs above 50 seats.

I called and spoke with one of my ATL reps personally. He said the way it was briefed to him concurred with what the chief pilot said. "

 

[JI Gone OH]

Know what, mainline has not done anything yet. And if we do end up with a low pay rate on a 100 seater, its not like we had much choice. We are in bankruptcy. We have very little leverage. We will do the best we can but in the end its largely out of our hands.

So everything is the judges fault now, is that what you're saying. Look, I'm the last one that wants to see you flying a 100 seat aircraft for $88 bucks an hour... that's pathetic. Hell, those are [worse than] Mesa wages. And I know that there isn't much you can do; this isn't my first time visiting Chapter 11. It's just really frustrating to see people [like you] give us a hard time for taking freezes a few months ago. You claim that now you're in bankruptcy, you don't have much choice, and to a large extent I agree. Well whether you want to believe it or not, we didn't have much of a choice back then either, because Delta had showed their hand as to who would get growth; the cheapest. It was clear to me and 60% of our pilot group that if we wanted to secure any kind of growth and make things better at our company, we were going to have to give. That's what y'all had been screaming that we were going to have to do from the beginning anyhow, and then when we did we "sold everyone out" and "stole flying" and all the other bullsh*t that goes around about us. The bottom line here is that we were either going to play ball or sit the bench, and I chose to play. It looks like you guys want to play too, and I can't blaim you, it just seems a little hypocritical, that's all. You know, two-faced....

 

[AAflyer]

Seems to me this is the time for ALPA, CAPA, and the rest of the unions to pull together and make a stand. Set a minimum pay level for each aircraft, regardless of the carrier, and that will take pilot wages off of the table.

Then management will have to either raise revenues and find other means of making money.

BINGO!!!!

AA

 

[AAflyer]

Do you guys FINALLY GET IT? We are ALL in this TOGETHER. The ONLY real blame we need to lay is upon ourselves.

JetBlue, Mesa, CHQ, UAL, AA etc, no one is out to screw the other guy, however we have all been MANIPULATED, and have TAKEN THE ANGER out on OURSELVES and our FELLOW aviatiors.

Is there any difference in furloughed guys and gals going to JB to secure work at that payrate then UAL, or DAL pilots now taking what they can to keep their job? No. Infact as the senior pilots sold out the junior one at many of legacies they pushed their fellow pilots into the arms of the LCCs.

Yes JB rates originally had an impact on what other airlines looked to pay their pilots, but don;t you think DAL's new rates while impact what the AirTran guys are trying to get.

Do you see why regionals are underbidding eachother for contracts?

WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER AND NEED TO BAND TOGETHER NOW!

Do you get it yet?

AA