DAL pilot

[CRJFlyer]

Gen. Lee,

I agree with the majority of your posts, although I'd go Americn made with a brand new Corvette (although most of the parts are made in Asia)

Raising a stink to the MEC would probably get the views changed so that maybe we could allow DAL pilots hiring at Comair..the only problem I would see is that they're are probably many more DAL guys furloughed than Comair would have room for...But then again its probably based more on the principle of allowing those guys aboard, than actually having you all come here..I suppose their probably wouldn't be that many who would voluntarily move down to the RJ...heck the unemployment pay has to be more than FO pay here first year...

But atleast the option would be alot nicer than getting the door slammed in your face like our MEC did...I only hope I could fly a '67, with multiple Flight Attendant options.

Unfortunately my 6 short months here leave me with little stink raising ability, and even less idea as to where to go to raise my stink, except under my sheets at night...(a good women always enjoys being tented in the middle of the night)...But if givin the right time or place I'd go to bat for you all.

 

[General Lee]

CRJ Flyer,

Well, I understand that your are junior and raising a stink may not help while on probation---so don't do anything risky. Maybe tell your friends that aren't on probation to maybe talk to your leadership. ASA has only hired 13 of our pilots (with 1015 on furlough)---but it was the thought that counts, and they were rewarded with an agreement on future hiring. That is better than nothing. I also understand your liking of the new Corvette--it does look nice. My fear is that the top 100 guys on your senority list are too proud to be FO's on MD88's and want more---more than what is possible at this time. Would you like to fly an MD88 or 737-800 someday with the good chance to move up to 757 or 767 later? If you would, tell a friend to talk to somebody. And, yes, on a 767 there are a lot of flt attendants---.

ACE,

Would you be whining if you were furloughed for no fault of your own (knowing you had a No Furlough Clause that somehow didn't apply here??) and some carrier owned by your own would not help you out when hiring 40-50 a month? It is stupid and you are jealous. The ASA pilots get some sort of preferential hiring when this is all over and you do not. Don't whine when you see the ASA guys you met in ATL or DFW waving down at you ( because of height---not ego) from a 767 in 5-6 years. Unless you are one of those top 100 guys who is ruining it for everyone else, then you will probably be retired at a golf course in Akron, OH. I don't remember whining while writing out a check each month during your strike. I wanted you to win, and it didn't happen. Now you can't help our guys/girls who were not making the "big bucks" at the time, and might want to fly at the BOTTOM of your list. There really is no excuse. And, the Porsche metophor I used was to show that the furloughed guys will eventually be back and probably able to afford one eventually. I am sure some Comair pilots could afford them too. It is all about priorities in life. Your MEC is trying to stand his ground for all of you, but look how he did during your strike. Guess what? He's not helping you this time either.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

I get the impression that you people are confused about what an MEC's duties are to the pilots they represent. They are not there to act as AIR INC. people. The MEC's duties have nothing to do with who my next employer would be if I chose to leave. They are responsible for representing the pilots as it pertains to there current job at our Airline.
This is why scope and list integration were brought up during the meeting. It was there "DUTY" to raise these concerns, because these are things that effect our careers and daily lives as Comair pilots.
I here all this talk about our BAD MEC, but if they did not attempt to make our careers better as Comair pilots, not as maybe, possibly, Delta pilots one day, but as Comair pilots, the ones they represent, then they would have slipped and then we would of had reason to be upset.

 

[Otto_Pilot]

Well said!

Good post Fellowaviator!

The line that crosses into a DFR (duty of fair-representation) lawsuit is a delicate one indeed.

Scope and job-security issues are what ALPA is all about.

Jobs is Job #1.

Just my opinion from the outside looking in (wishing I was on the inside looking out)

-Otto P.

 

[General Lee]

AFellowaviator,

I think you seem to miss the point. Delta pilots are frustrated that they helped Comair pilots in their time of need (their strike) and that they will not return the favor, a favor that would not affect them at all. You are right when you say that the MEC has the duty to help their pilots achieve the best lifestyle they can, while looking out for their jobs. Well, I don't remember the Comair MEC ever turning away the thousands of dollars other ALPA pilots were giving them during their strike. They took it and helped pay bills, eat, etc. Well, now our 1000+ pilots are out on the street and Comair is hiring 40-50 a month. Where would our guys go at Comair? The bottom. Seems fair to me, but not them.
ASA is allowing it, and Comair is not. IS this clear to you yet? When someone is in a time of need, hopefully people would step up to the plate. ASA did, even if it was for only a fraction of the pilots. Atleast they showed an effort. Sure, the Comair MEC isn't there to help them find a job after Comair, and so far he is ensuring that they probably won't go to Delta when things turn around. The ASA MEC, Bob Arnold, is ensuring that there will be movement at ASA when things turn around because their pilots will be getting interviews at Delta. That is a lot better than having no chance to interview. And who can they blame it on over there at Comair? Answer: Their MEC.

Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[Flash 7]

General Lee,

I fly for Comair and agree with most of what your saying. I do support the hiring of Delta pilots to our lists. Just because I myself have also been furloughed. And it would be a nice gesture from one fellow pilot to another.

I've been following the business aspect of commercial aviation since 1985 and I'm pretty up to date with it's entire history. One thing I will tell your for sure is Delta mainline will be smaller ten years from now. Look at the facts of the Industry. Look at what's going on in Congress. Airline losses are massive and real. There is absolutely no way Delta is going to lose money at the expense of scope. I don't care what the language is. Alpa had a chance to nip the RJ problem in the butt back in 91. They were short sighted in their views and now, well I don't have to tell you what happened. I would love to make 250K a year but I realize airlines are in business for customers and not for cushy pilot jobs.

The Business traveler, as we knew them from the late 90's are gone forever. Delta, along with other hub and spoke carriers have to change or they will die over time some sooner some later.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

General Lee, I like your name!

Your rersponse to my post was expected, but IMO did not lessen what I said. Our MEC is there to better OUR lives as Comair Pilots, period. Our MEC is not there to look out for the well being of another airlines Pilots. They entered the meeting with one thing in mind, the Comair pilots. All emotion aside, that was there DUTY.
If there actions upset you, so be it. They are not concerned about your feelings. There duty, by law if I might add, is to better the working conditions of the Comair pilots through what ever means made available to them.
We had plenty of our pilots get hired at Delta and when the hiring starts again, we will have plenty get hired there again. All these threats are meaningless. Just as meaningless as a preff. hiring proposal. Delta is riding the "single carrier" fence, and is not going to agree to a preff. hiring agreement between Delta and either Comair or ASA.
I am sorry any one is furloughed. My best buddy is close at Delta, and it would hurt me to see him furloughed, but I do not see my MEC as the ones who should be held accountable for the Delta pilots problems.

 

[acaTerry]

"Our MEC is there to better OUR lives as Comair Pilots, period. Our MEC is not there to look out for the well being of another airlines Pilots. They entered the meeting with one thing in mind, the Comair pilots. All emotion aside, that was there DUTY."

Oh, and this from the guy who SLAMMED ACA pilots for not stretching out our negotiations for the sake of CMR pilots. The shoe is on the other foot now isn't it?

 

[Freight Dog]

AFELLOWAVIATOR, if I may ask a question.... how is hiring furloughed ALPA brothers and sisters from the mainline detrimental to your career if they go straight to the bottom of your seniority list?

Attrition? You just nipped that one by saying that lots of pilots went to Delta when they were hiring, no difference here.

Politics? These people couldn't vote or alter anything for at least a year, and even then... how would an opinion differ from a Delta furloughee to a young 24 year old horndog CRJFlyer who aspires to fly 767 loaded with flight attendants? Furloughees are going there for sure, and CRJFlyer is going where there are more "options."
The bottom line is no difference.

Job protection? I truly believe that CMR and ASA need to merge in order for you guys to be heard or get a meaningful scope. Anything less, you get a current whipsaw, and that's bad for everyone involved. However, I don't see DALPA as your enemy in all this.

My .02 cents

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

ACA TERRY,

What you refered to is a common practice in the Airline industry called "PATTERN BARGAINING". ACA did nothing to promote it.

What you said did absolutely nothing to lessen my point. My MEC's duty when they entered that meeting was to represent the Comair Pilots, period. It was, and never has been to secure future positions for us. That is the fact that you conviently over looked in your post.
If they did not bring up the things that they did, THEN we would of had some thing to be upset about.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Freight dog,


I don't know how to answer your post because you bring up things that have absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand, but I will repeat.
Our MEC's duties have absolutely nothing to do with securing future positions for our pilots, period. If you can show me some thing in writing to dispute that, I will listen.
They have a duty to represent Comair pilots as Comair pilots, period. They entered that meeting with one thing in mind, to better the Comair pilots careers AS COMAIR PILOTS. Are you so blind that you can't see that?

 

[acaTerry]

I have to disagree

AFELLOWAVIATOR
No, I think what I said hits the double-standarded nail on the head. You said yourself that your MEC's job is to "look out for CMR pilots, period". OK, so how does ACA's MEC looking out for OUR own pilots make any difference?
No matter what you say about "pattern bargaining", our MEC is there to look out for us, not CMR. You had a problem with that. And now you want it the other way because it is you under the gun.
Now perhaps you understand why so many lashed out against you before in that other thread. Nothing like walking in someone elses shoes....
Not shooting arrows at you, just bringing up an old point.

 

[cocknbull]

The CMR MEC's actions might not be in the best intrest of COmair pilots. By sticking it in big brothers @s... Delta pilots might not be so willing to allow the growth of Comair continue. I realize that now their force is weaker then before. However the future may be different. Delta pilots did not restrict growth as much as United, USAir, and American pilots restricted their regional side kicks. That is one of the major reasons Comair is as big as it is. They allowed this to take place out of good faith and to help Delta. Now they get slapped in the face. Comair is ridding high now, but aviation is a small community (don't burn bridges). All this stink because Comair's MEC wants guys who aren't going to get called up for three years to resign their seniority. That sucks.
I believe ACA only reqiures a 3 year gentlemens agreement for furloughed mainline guys. This protects ACA's investment and helps fellow pilots pay the bills. If you ask me its a win win situation.

 

[Heilborn1]

Hey, I'm a furloughed DAL pilot also, and I can't find jack flying jobs right now. Would I positively go to ComAir? I don't know. Would I like the opportunity? Absolutely.

We (1,060 furloughees) won't forget. And all the ComAir pilots who have their heads in the sand and claim "we didn't know", it's time to get in the game with your union.

 

[ExAF]

AFELLOWAVIATOR,
I don't really have a dog in this flight other than having friends at both CMR and DAL, but I can't help but noticing your arguments are flawed. You keep talking about how the CMR MEC is there to take care of CMR pilots...fine. How is hiring DAL furloughees to the bottom of the list effecting CMR pilots in any way shape or form? As I see it, current CMR pilots are still moving up in seniority and you keep doors open and bridges in tact as opposed to closing doors and burning bridges. It appears to be a win win situation for all involved. If preferential hiring is detrimental, you sure haven't made a case for it. Please educate the masses.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

All of you are still missing the point. I don't know how to make it any more clear.
Our MEC's job has absolutely nothing to do with who I might want to fly for next. There sole purpose in life is to advance the careers of Comair pilots as it pertains to being a COMAIR PILOT...


All this emotional stuff about burning bridges and helping our brothers is just that, emotional hype that does not, purposely or other wise, have any thing to do with what happened.

I don't know what "shoe" you are speaking of. Our MEC must put our interest as COMAIR PILOTS first, above all else. The Delta MEC knew this when they approached them. I found the way they handled the whole thing as absolutely shameful and unprofessional.
They, of all people, know what our MEC's duties are, and the way they announced to the world what they were going to ask of our MEC before it happened was a premeditated attempt to stack the cards and disgrace our pilot group.

If I was a Delta furloughee, I would be asking them if a preff. hiring plan was all they could come up with, and if so, why? We have three pilot groups on property competeing for the same flying. The company is hiring pilots and buying aircraft as they furlough pilots, and this is all the Delta MEC can come up with?

 

[Freight Dog]

I suppose it's definitely wrong of an ALPA MEC to go to bat for jobs of furloughees and strikers because it does absolutely nothing for the non-striking pilot group who's hiring.

Tell that to UAL ALPA, my union brother.

 

[ExAF]

Enlighten us please.....

All of you are still missing the point. I don't know how to make it any more clear. Our MEC's job has absolutely nothing to do with who I might want to fly for next. There sole purpose in life is to advance the careers of Comair pilots as it pertains to being a COMAIR PILOT...

You are the one missing the point. Everyone understands that your MEC's job is to look after you. The point you are missing is that your MEC could look after you AND some DAL furloughees by allowing pref hiring. Get it! They would still be looking after you and advancing your career. How is the pref hiring NOT looking out for CMR pilots? That is the point we are all waiting for you to enlighten us on.

 

[Heilborn1]

Not sure what AFellowAviators means.

How does hiring a furloughed pilot with lots of experience and placing him on the bottom of the seniority list hurt ComAir pilots?

I was always thankful when I was a commuter captain to have an experienced pilot in the right seat vs. somewhat brand new.

As a sim instructor, wouldn't you prefer training someone with EFIS/FMS and jet experience vs. a 800 hour Academy grad?

Respectful of your thoughts,

Heilborn1

 

[flaps30]

scope

scope is the reason DAL pilots can't come to COMAIR, DAL has limits on what we can fly, the MEC wants them removed. It has nothing to do with anything else, period. Pref hiring is a joke anyway. I think I would be more pizzed about the scope reset than some low paying job. Which will keep you on the streets longer?

I'd much rather fly with a new guy than some bitter bitXh.

x-midway

 

[NYRANGERS]

Re: scope

I'd much rather fly with a new guy than some bitter bitXh.

x-midway

Midway huh, yea you don't sound bitter at all

 

[flaps30]

oh i am and more...

yes I am.

x-Midway

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

exaf,

You are just blinded by the Delta pilots MEC. Scope, which limits our pilots, limits on 70 seaters, which hurt our pilots are things that our MEC wanted to discuss. They came to the meeting with a problem that effects there pilots, and our MEC came to the meeting with a problem that effects our pilots. The Delta MEC refused to discuss our problem, and only wanted to discuss theres. When our MEC said it was a two way street, they responded with threats and intimidation tactics.
Now did they really want preff. hiring? Hell no. It was a well orchestrated stunt from the get go. They have pilots hitting the street while the "allowed aircraft" clause of the contract they negotiated allows the company to buy air craft and hire pilots at the same time. To take attention from there own short comings, they announce two weeks prior that they were going to save the day by pushing our MEC to get our mgt. to change policy and hire furloughees with out them giving up there numbers. You might not of noticed, but there was no advance message to the Delta pilots when they talked to the ASA MEC.

Knowing exactly what our MEC would do, they set up the ambush and now all the attention is not on who is REALLY responsible, but it is on our MEC and pilot group. They should be ashamed of themselves.


As far as experience, we have 100's of pilots who were very low time when they were hired, and they are doing a fantastic job for us.
Yes, time to time we have to give a little extra training in initial, but they usually do just fine.

 

[Lumber Yak]

Spin it any way you want...

Afellowaviator,

Wait... now it's the Delta MEC's fault that its own furloughed pilots are not offered jobs at the bottom of Comair's expanding seniority list despite supporting Comair pilots monetarily during their strike? Then what's the deal with ASA - why are they offering opportunities and not Comair? Can you answer that one? How is ASA different from Comair in this process? You can continue to spin it any way you want - but the end result is that Delta furloughees are still on the street....

You can bet ASA pilots will get preferential treatment now... If Comair pilots held such a grudge about the scope issue (which will likely never pass muster with Delta pilots who don't want to give up more jobs or expansion opportunities - that's reality...), then why did they willingly accept monetary benefits from Delta pilots during their strike? They could have refused it on principle - right? Right? Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah - accept help and then refuse to give it when the partner needs it.

How do you expect Delta pilots will respond to ANY potential scope-change initiative now? Can you answer that one? How are you going to spin that one?

End result: Comair pilots look bad and ASA pilots look good...

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

lumber yak,'


You seem like a very bitter person and I wish you well. Why is it that every time this subject comes up you people bring up our strike? I don't see the tie in.
If you are refereing to the "fact" that it is my MEC'S DUTY TO REPRESENT OUR PILOTS AS SPIN, then I doubt that you are even an airline pilot.
Plenty of Comair pilots will be hired at Delta, just as much as before, and your little tantrum will not change that.

The Delta MEC set the tone when we were bought out, and it seems it will continue until the Delta pilots wake up and recall those shameful people. Shame on them for using furloughed pilots as pawns this way. The Delta MEC is a divisive group, and until the Delta pilots wake up and boot them out, things will never get better.

 

[PositiveRate]

Lumber Yak,

For the record, you're full of sh^t with your flame-bait narrow minded posts. Why don't you get off your uninformed "Comair - bad , ASA - good" high horse and find something better to do.

You're not an airline pilot, you're not part of the Delta family...yet you keep singing in as some sort of omniscent outsider as if the little conversation you heard at the driving range gives you the right to trash my company's pilots.

You can bet ASA pilots will get preferential treatment now... If Comair pilots held such a grudge about the scope issue (which will likely never pass muster with Delta pilots who don't want to give up more jobs or expansion opportunities - that's reality...), then why did they willingly accept monetary benefits from Delta pilots during their strike? They could have refused it on principle - right? Right? Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah - accept help and then refuse to give it when the partner needs it.

End result: Comair pilots look bad and ASA pilots look good...

Sue me for taking your bait, but you're an annoying broken record.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Lumber Yak,

For the record, you're full of sh^t with your flame-bait narrow minded posts. Why don't you get off your uninformed "Comair - bad , ASA - good" high horse and find something better to do.

You're not an airline pilot, you're not part of the Delta family...yet you keep singing in as some sort of omniscent outsider as if the little conversation you heard at the driving range gives you the right to trash my company's pilots.





Sue me for taking your bait, but you're an annoying broken record.

I think Lumber has a better handle of your future with respect to MY company (Delta). He is pointing out some of the future problems you will have with us. We won't forget.

 

[ExAF]

Finally!

exaf,

You are just blinded by the Delta pilots MEC. Scope, which limits our pilots, limits on 70 seaters, which hurt our pilots are things that our MEC wanted to discuss. They came to the meeting with a problem that effects there pilots, and our MEC came to the meeting with a problem that effects our pilots. The Delta MEC refused to discuss our problem, and only wanted to discuss theres. When our MEC said it was a two way street, they responded with threats and intimidation tactics.
Now did they really want preff. hiring? Hell no. It was a well orchestrated stunt from the get go. They have pilots hitting the street while the "allowed aircraft" clause of the contract they negotiated allows the company to buy air craft and hire pilots at the same time. To take attention from there own short comings, they announce two weeks prior that they were going to save the day by pushing our MEC to get our mgt. to change policy and hire furloughees with out them giving up there numbers. You might not of noticed, but there was no advance message to the Delta pilots when they talked to the ASA MEC.

Knowing exactly what our MEC would do, they set up the ambush and now all the attention is not on who is REALLY responsible, but it is on our MEC and pilot group. They should be ashamed of themselves.


As far as experience, we have 100's of pilots who were very low time when they were hired, and they are doing a fantastic job for us.
Yes, time to time we have to give a little extra training in initial, but they usually do just fine.

First of all I'm not blinded by anything. Like I said before, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I'm just an innocent bystander that isn't part of the "Delta Family" (which appears to be a pretty disfunctional family right now). I'm just glad to see you finally present a point for others to consider other than "the CMR MEC is supposed to look out for CMR pilots" which was was gettin old. And finally it is "their" (possesive), not "there." Carry on....

 

[Lumber Yak]

Positive Rate,

I know a lot more than you think. I have ZERO relation to Delta, but I talk with Delta pilots all the time. If you think this posting was a bad idea, check out how many people have replied - this is an informational forum for discussion - that is what we are doing.

Using furloughed pilots as baragaining chips - do you think that was a wise decision - do you really? If you think Delta pilots are not pi$$ed you are wrong.

In this case, the TRUTH HURTS and you don't want to admit it. I challenge you to ask any Delta pilot about his/her opinion.

I have no reason to be on the "high-horse" because I have no relation to Delta. However, I call them like I see them - screwing with unemployed pilots upsets me and most rational pilots... maybe not you. When I heard about this from a few Delta guys I was outraged... Are you saying these furloughed pilots were not screwed in this case? How about the guy who started the DAL Pilot thread - a former Comair CRJ pilot who is now not allowed to return after joining Delta - was he not screwed after picketing for the very benefits you Comair pilots now enjoy? Now he can't return... Yeah, that's fair....

Admit it, the truth hurts sometimes... ASA hires and Comair doesn't - how does that make any sense? Can you tell me? huh?

 

[NYRANGERS]

lumber yak,'


Plenty of Comair pilots will be hired at Delta, just as much as before, and your little tantrum will not change that.

You are so wrong. This is bigger than you may think. We even have many retired guys chiming in on this issue on the DALPA board. Remember that every interview consists of an HR rep. and a Retired Delta pilot who is an ALPA Rep.

I think you have no intention of ever moving on from comair, which doesn't matter. But don't think we Delta guys will ever forget this. You are infact hurting many comair pilots who may want to come to Delta someday.

I am not saying this to try to convince anyone to give us furloughed guys a shot at the bottom of your seniority list. I just think you "lifers" should not try to "snowjob" the many pilots who MAY want to move on when their time comes.