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Bill Mostelar
shame
I agree 100%. It is a shame for the young guys at CMR. When DAL starts hiring again, they may miss out. DAL will hire again in 5 yrs or so, and at that time, many will be trying to distance themselves from the heat of this era.
Either pressure your reps to change their stance now......or.... well I guess I'll be looking forward to proudly sharing the cockpit with a former ASA newhire.
Thanks guys (ASA) for your reasonable and honorable stance. It will come back around.
DAL737FO said:
I agree 100%. It is a shame for the young guys at CMR. When DAL starts hiring again, they may miss out. DAL will hire again in 5 yrs or so, and at that time, many will be trying to distance themselves from the heat of this era.
Either pressure your reps to change their stance now......or.... well I guess I'll be looking forward to proudly sharing the cockpit with a former ASA newhire.
Thanks guys (ASA) for your reasonable and honorable stance. It will come back around.
P38JLightning
Well Endowed Member
- Joined
- Nov 28, 2001
- Posts
- 223
What is so funny about all this is the Delta pilots on this and other boards have probably made it impossible for Delta NOT to hire a boat load of Comair applicants when they resume hiring.
You ever heard of labor laws? Discrimination laws?
I can see Leo now. "Uh, o k ...., not hire Comair pilots because the pilots don't want me to, and then hundreds of unfair labor law suits to follow? I don't think so. I know a lot of pilots who already have talked to lawyers, and they are having them track these post for future reference.
You guys crack me up
__________________
Afellowaviator
Actually fellow, its highly unlikely the comair pilots who fully intend on *applying* to Delta someday would be NEARLY as interested in suing to get a Delta job, as compared to those who are currently suing for that same brass ring already.
Perhaps your assertion is that if those who intend on applying find themselves blackballed (which is probably one of the main reasons the Delta MEC's request was rejected in the first place...to lash out against the young punks who "unfairly" go to mainline "ahead of" more senior people for whatever reason) then they, too, would try to sue their way to the top, in the name of "fairness."
Not likely either. You see, there are plenty of Delta pre hires already at Comair. Lots of senior Delta captains send their sons and daughters to the Comair Academy. You can bet your bottom dollar THEY won't be affected by any blackball. Nor will any military "squardon buddies" or any other special interest group. So Delta will be able to say "look at all these Comair pilots we're still hiring...what do you mean discrimination??"
All thats been done with the denial of the Delta furlough/seniority request is to hose the average junior line pilot who might someday want to seek employment at Delta someday. While you have suceeded in making sure most of those junior to you at Comair will ever go to Delta someday, "ahead of" you, odds are anyone in the future who would aspire to get hired by Delta would likely also be interested in United, Northwest, Jet Blue, Southwest, Continental, Air Tran, Alaska, FedEx, UPS, DHL, the next low fare start up d'jour airline or whoever else.
So you've done nothing to control future attrition, nor enlighten the clueless junior pilots with a "career airline" epiphany. You know, if they intend on staying they will fight harder for what's right. Which, by the way, if you even believe in the first place, then you owe the junior pilots who went on strike a HUGE appology, because they were a massive part of the pilot unity of that time. A time if you remember, when most airlines were still hiring. If all they cared about was getting their time and getting out, how do you explain the high level of unity and Comair patriotisim?
So sit back and enjoy the fact that no Comair pilot without an inside track will ever work for Delta some day, "ahead of" you. Other than that one little thing, which won't affect your life one bit, not much has changed. What a grand victory.
You ever heard of labor laws? Discrimination laws?
I can see Leo now. "Uh, o k ...., not hire Comair pilots because the pilots don't want me to, and then hundreds of unfair labor law suits to follow? I don't think so. I know a lot of pilots who already have talked to lawyers, and they are having them track these post for future reference.
You guys crack me up
__________________
Afellowaviator
Actually fellow, its highly unlikely the comair pilots who fully intend on *applying* to Delta someday would be NEARLY as interested in suing to get a Delta job, as compared to those who are currently suing for that same brass ring already.
Perhaps your assertion is that if those who intend on applying find themselves blackballed (which is probably one of the main reasons the Delta MEC's request was rejected in the first place...to lash out against the young punks who "unfairly" go to mainline "ahead of" more senior people for whatever reason) then they, too, would try to sue their way to the top, in the name of "fairness."
Not likely either. You see, there are plenty of Delta pre hires already at Comair. Lots of senior Delta captains send their sons and daughters to the Comair Academy. You can bet your bottom dollar THEY won't be affected by any blackball. Nor will any military "squardon buddies" or any other special interest group. So Delta will be able to say "look at all these Comair pilots we're still hiring...what do you mean discrimination??"
All thats been done with the denial of the Delta furlough/seniority request is to hose the average junior line pilot who might someday want to seek employment at Delta someday. While you have suceeded in making sure most of those junior to you at Comair will ever go to Delta someday, "ahead of" you, odds are anyone in the future who would aspire to get hired by Delta would likely also be interested in United, Northwest, Jet Blue, Southwest, Continental, Air Tran, Alaska, FedEx, UPS, DHL, the next low fare start up d'jour airline or whoever else.
So you've done nothing to control future attrition, nor enlighten the clueless junior pilots with a "career airline" epiphany. You know, if they intend on staying they will fight harder for what's right. Which, by the way, if you even believe in the first place, then you owe the junior pilots who went on strike a HUGE appology, because they were a massive part of the pilot unity of that time. A time if you remember, when most airlines were still hiring. If all they cared about was getting their time and getting out, how do you explain the high level of unity and Comair patriotisim?
So sit back and enjoy the fact that no Comair pilot without an inside track will ever work for Delta some day, "ahead of" you. Other than that one little thing, which won't affect your life one bit, not much has changed. What a grand victory.
AFELLOWAVIATOR
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2002
- Posts
- 411
Afellowaviator
Yes I'm fully aware of the fact of the Delta scope limits Comair to 70 seats which is also tied to main line growth. That's why I said the following:
"Has anyone taken the time to figure why Comair management doesn't buy a certificate and operated Dc-9s, 737, or Airbuses as a separate entity."
Do you know what it means to operate as a separate entity???
Yes that's right, a company with a name other than Comair that's not a DIC carrier. The Delta Scope only pertains to DIC.
Yes I'm fully aware of the fact of the Delta scope limits Comair to 70 seats which is also tied to main line growth. That's why I said the following:
"Has anyone taken the time to figure why Comair management doesn't buy a certificate and operated Dc-9s, 737, or Airbuses as a separate entity."
Do you know what it means to operate as a separate entity???
Yes that's right, a company with a name other than Comair that's not a DIC carrier. The Delta Scope only pertains to DIC.
B
Bill Mostelar
Re: Question for DAL guys
Why punish the Iraqi people, when it's leadership that's to blame?
At some point there is some accountability that has to take place. If the average CMR pilot disagrees with leadership, then it's time for reform. Sitting idly will not cut it in today’s competitive world.
Unfortunately for JC, Cory, BB and the boys, they don't hold the same cards as they did during their strike. That was cutthroat, black and white; where each side was expected to fight till death, and then get along later. This is much different and similar to a public low blow of a family member. You don't do that.
We were on course to begin to fix this thing, and those guys are (once again) looking for more controversy, more hype, and really taking things too far.
If their own constituents and subordinates are willing to do nothing, then they are aligning themselves with leadership who is going to sell them at the meat market. I don't feel sorry for the junior CMR pilots who are not willing to control their own destiny and at least speak up.
As I said, I look forward to returning favors to the ASA pilot group. If nothing else, (it's not just where they were hired) they choose to elect and give ongoing support to progressive leadership.
Those who sit on their hands are part of the problem. Don't align yourselves with the "new lunatic fringe". Stand up for yourselves. Use the brain God gave you to stick with the (historically) financially rewarded (not company, but group of aviators who have the strongest inherent bargaining leverage).
....rather than some ex-salesman, televangelist type and his henchmen.
Good luck.
Otto said:
Why punish the Iraqi people, when it's leadership that's to blame?
At some point there is some accountability that has to take place. If the average CMR pilot disagrees with leadership, then it's time for reform. Sitting idly will not cut it in today’s competitive world.
Unfortunately for JC, Cory, BB and the boys, they don't hold the same cards as they did during their strike. That was cutthroat, black and white; where each side was expected to fight till death, and then get along later. This is much different and similar to a public low blow of a family member. You don't do that.
We were on course to begin to fix this thing, and those guys are (once again) looking for more controversy, more hype, and really taking things too far.
If their own constituents and subordinates are willing to do nothing, then they are aligning themselves with leadership who is going to sell them at the meat market. I don't feel sorry for the junior CMR pilots who are not willing to control their own destiny and at least speak up.
As I said, I look forward to returning favors to the ASA pilot group. If nothing else, (it's not just where they were hired) they choose to elect and give ongoing support to progressive leadership.
Those who sit on their hands are part of the problem. Don't align yourselves with the "new lunatic fringe". Stand up for yourselves. Use the brain God gave you to stick with the (historically) financially rewarded (not company, but group of aviators who have the strongest inherent bargaining leverage).
....rather than some ex-salesman, televangelist type and his henchmen.
Good luck.
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DS: The Delta furloughs would not kick RJ guys out on the street, they would go to the bottom of the list?
Cliff: Why the bottom??? They have been flying the RJ's longer than you!! You go to the bottom of the list, heck your not even on their seniority list!!! What gives you the right to kick an ASA pilot out of his or her seat AND have a higher seniority number??? Let me guess,,, your a big bad mainline guy at Delta.. Big deal...
DS: Who would that hurt, especially if they are hiring 40-50 a month?
Cliff: Your fellow ALPA Bro that who... I'm sorry I forgot your an ALPA guy too... Who's a scab????
DS: They were offered something like preferential hiring to allow our guys to go to the BOTTOM?
Cliff: What????????
DS: So, you want them to "suck it up" and march to the unemployment line?
Cliff: Yes, like a man.. Not a whining anti-RJ (the sky is falling, the sky is falling) Delta Dip... Grow up the smaller RJ's are in your crads... The days of flying 767's on 300 mile hops are over... Face it.. Adapt and overcome or die...
DS: Well, they might do that for a while, but eventually they will pass your a$$ in their new Porsche.
Cliff: OK just drop the pipe and it will be just fine....
DS: And, you want our guys to change some work rules. Hmmm. Sounds like Delta is in such dire straits----they still have enough money to buy $1.1 billion worth of new RJ's this year alone, and have $2.6 billion in cash, with another $2 Billion in equity to mortgage if they have too.
Cliff: Yep, the work rules that allow a reserve guy to turn down a trip and then call in on a day off to work and get paid time and a half... You guys are killing your own company... Better start working 70 hours for 70 hours pay!!!! Like the rest of the world...
DS: What work rules do you want us to change? Fly more? Nope, not with guys out. Pay cut? How about management also, and Comair and ASA guys--just to keep it fair.
Cliff: This is classic... Won't fly more because of guys being on furlough... Meaning, you won't fly the 80 you are paid for??? Well thats a catch 22... Lets not work and F**k the company because our buds are on the street because of a slowdown and therefore profits drop and guess what??? More furloughs...
Profit = Expense's - cost - selling price
Profit ratio% = ( profit / selling price )100
Think about an action before there is an reaction.... Not working hurts a fellow Union member.. It doesn't help them......
The way the work rules are now its a paradigm... Its time to reset them..
ALPA cannot serve both the Majors and Regionals within the same company... Its clearly a conflict of interest... For pilots to fight the RJ's- demanding limits- and the next demanding a seat clearly shows cowardice and lack of integrity...
Being a Delta pilot does not allow you to force yourself into a seat..
Cliff: Why the bottom??? They have been flying the RJ's longer than you!! You go to the bottom of the list, heck your not even on their seniority list!!! What gives you the right to kick an ASA pilot out of his or her seat AND have a higher seniority number??? Let me guess,,, your a big bad mainline guy at Delta.. Big deal...
DS: Who would that hurt, especially if they are hiring 40-50 a month?
Cliff: Your fellow ALPA Bro that who... I'm sorry I forgot your an ALPA guy too... Who's a scab????
DS: They were offered something like preferential hiring to allow our guys to go to the BOTTOM?
Cliff: What????????
DS: So, you want them to "suck it up" and march to the unemployment line?
Cliff: Yes, like a man.. Not a whining anti-RJ (the sky is falling, the sky is falling) Delta Dip... Grow up the smaller RJ's are in your crads... The days of flying 767's on 300 mile hops are over... Face it.. Adapt and overcome or die...
DS: Well, they might do that for a while, but eventually they will pass your a$$ in their new Porsche.
Cliff: OK just drop the pipe and it will be just fine....
DS: And, you want our guys to change some work rules. Hmmm. Sounds like Delta is in such dire straits----they still have enough money to buy $1.1 billion worth of new RJ's this year alone, and have $2.6 billion in cash, with another $2 Billion in equity to mortgage if they have too.
Cliff: Yep, the work rules that allow a reserve guy to turn down a trip and then call in on a day off to work and get paid time and a half... You guys are killing your own company... Better start working 70 hours for 70 hours pay!!!! Like the rest of the world...
DS: What work rules do you want us to change? Fly more? Nope, not with guys out. Pay cut? How about management also, and Comair and ASA guys--just to keep it fair.
Cliff: This is classic... Won't fly more because of guys being on furlough... Meaning, you won't fly the 80 you are paid for??? Well thats a catch 22... Lets not work and F**k the company because our buds are on the street because of a slowdown and therefore profits drop and guess what??? More furloughs...
Profit = Expense's - cost - selling price
Profit ratio% = ( profit / selling price )100
Think about an action before there is an reaction.... Not working hurts a fellow Union member.. It doesn't help them......
The way the work rules are now its a paradigm... Its time to reset them..
ALPA cannot serve both the Majors and Regionals within the same company... Its clearly a conflict of interest... For pilots to fight the RJ's- demanding limits- and the next demanding a seat clearly shows cowardice and lack of integrity...
Being a Delta pilot does not allow you to force yourself into a seat..
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AFELLOWAVIATOR
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2002
- Posts
- 411
Bill ,
You sound like an idiot. Our MEC was doing there job. They entered that meeting with one thing in mind. COMAIR PILOTS. It IS WHAT THEY WERE ELECTED TO DO. They are not AIR. INC.
I can't believe some of the post I am reading on the subject. We are suppose to be mad because our MEC was doing what they were elected to do? I hate to break the news to you, but our MEC was not elected to get us jobs at Delta, and they were not elected to get Delta pilots jobs at Comair. They were elected to represent the COMAIR PILOTS needs at every opportunity that arises. Your MEC had issues and our MEC had issues. Ours listened and yours did not. In fact, your people resorted to empty, shameless threats when our MEC would not cave to there demands. I would be embarrased if I was a Delta Pilot, the way your rep. acted.
You sound like an idiot. Our MEC was doing there job. They entered that meeting with one thing in mind. COMAIR PILOTS. It IS WHAT THEY WERE ELECTED TO DO. They are not AIR. INC.
I can't believe some of the post I am reading on the subject. We are suppose to be mad because our MEC was doing what they were elected to do? I hate to break the news to you, but our MEC was not elected to get us jobs at Delta, and they were not elected to get Delta pilots jobs at Comair. They were elected to represent the COMAIR PILOTS needs at every opportunity that arises. Your MEC had issues and our MEC had issues. Ours listened and yours did not. In fact, your people resorted to empty, shameless threats when our MEC would not cave to there demands. I would be embarrased if I was a Delta Pilot, the way your rep. acted.
Freight Dog
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 2,232
AFellowAviator.. do you treat your trainees like that too?
"You are an idiot! Now let's do that V1 cut again."
As it's been said TIME AND TIME again, not extending a hand to furloughees is low, and what CMR MEC wants amounts to an extortion, not an offer.
Can't blame DAL MEC at all for walking out...
I still ask you and you refuse to answer:
What do you care if it's a 1200 hour CFI, ex-Midway, or a furloughed Delta pilot that's sitting to your right and is junior to you? How is that "protecting your interests"? Is it perhaps jealousy that the other guy has a job waiting for him at Delta? What is it?
STILL waiting for a response from AFELLOWAVIATOR.
Best regards!
"You are an idiot! Now let's do that V1 cut again."
As it's been said TIME AND TIME again, not extending a hand to furloughees is low, and what CMR MEC wants amounts to an extortion, not an offer.
Can't blame DAL MEC at all for walking out...
I still ask you and you refuse to answer:
What do you care if it's a 1200 hour CFI, ex-Midway, or a furloughed Delta pilot that's sitting to your right and is junior to you? How is that "protecting your interests"? Is it perhaps jealousy that the other guy has a job waiting for him at Delta? What is it?
STILL waiting for a response from AFELLOWAVIATOR.
Best regards!
AFELLOWAVIATOR
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2002
- Posts
- 411
DOG,
Your question is stupid.You will not acknowledge that our MEC was doing what they were elected to do. It has absolutely nothing to do with getting us jobs. Talk about extortion. We are now members of the Delta family, and they refuse to acknoledge that fact. They do not want to work with us period, until now that they needed something.
We have to be in a defensive mode. Look at the US Air wholly owned. They tried for years to work with mainline, and what did it get them? Delta pilots would of already tried some thing lke a j4j extortion if they thought they could get away with it.
They simply want to get JC and company out of office in hopes of them being replaced with a passive group that will let them walk all over them. Our mgt. did not like them either, and why? Because they would not roll over. I think it is absolutely great that we have an MEC that puts our pilot group first.
Our MEC went to the meeting with the Comair pilots interest at hand, as they should of, and the Delta Mec went to the meeting with the Delta pilots interest at hand, as they should of.
It was an ambush by the Deltra mec, period. They announced weeks ahead of time that they were going to do it, unlike there meeting with the ASA MEC. They knew our MEC would do there job, and insist that scope be talked about. It was political. They were and still are attempting to drive a wedge between our MEC and the pilots. It aint gonna work. Virtually every Comair pilot I talk to has the attitude that the Delta MEC was acting out of bad faith and they are essentially full of shi%$.
Your question is stupid.You will not acknowledge that our MEC was doing what they were elected to do. It has absolutely nothing to do with getting us jobs. Talk about extortion. We are now members of the Delta family, and they refuse to acknoledge that fact. They do not want to work with us period, until now that they needed something.
We have to be in a defensive mode. Look at the US Air wholly owned. They tried for years to work with mainline, and what did it get them? Delta pilots would of already tried some thing lke a j4j extortion if they thought they could get away with it.
They simply want to get JC and company out of office in hopes of them being replaced with a passive group that will let them walk all over them. Our mgt. did not like them either, and why? Because they would not roll over. I think it is absolutely great that we have an MEC that puts our pilot group first.
Our MEC went to the meeting with the Comair pilots interest at hand, as they should of, and the Delta Mec went to the meeting with the Delta pilots interest at hand, as they should of.
It was an ambush by the Deltra mec, period. They announced weeks ahead of time that they were going to do it, unlike there meeting with the ASA MEC. They knew our MEC would do there job, and insist that scope be talked about. It was political. They were and still are attempting to drive a wedge between our MEC and the pilots. It aint gonna work. Virtually every Comair pilot I talk to has the attitude that the Delta MEC was acting out of bad faith and they are essentially full of shi%$.
LASvegas777
Active member
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2003
- Posts
- 30
If the WHOLE Comair pilots group gets penalized for not lending a hand to DAL furloughees for a decision made by an elect few, I feel really bad for the Comair pilots that are ex miltary F-16, F-18,
F-14, B-52, C-5, KC-135 pilots that had to go to Comair in the past 1.5 yr since DAL wasnt hiring, and now that they are at Comair and part of the WHOLE comair pilot group, they will be penalized by thier own military friends who are at DAL saying "We wont hire Comair pilots in the Future". If what is being said on the post by DAL pilots is true will this happen? Will they just look the other way from thier military pilot friends at comair who want to go to DAL when hiring resumes and say sorry you fly at comair, should have went to ASA? And what about the Comair pilots that have dad's or mom's flying for DAL? I guess they are screwed to since they are part of the WHOLE comair pilot group and they wont have the chance to fly for DAL in the Fututre. Is there a chance a DAL pilot mom or dad would tell thier kid hey I am not going to try and help you get hired at DAL becuase of the WHOLE comair pilot group is penalized and they are bad?? The pilots that ended up at Comair that would have got hired at DAL prior to the Furloughs will still get hired at DAL when they start hiring agian in my opinon.
F-14, B-52, C-5, KC-135 pilots that had to go to Comair in the past 1.5 yr since DAL wasnt hiring, and now that they are at Comair and part of the WHOLE comair pilot group, they will be penalized by thier own military friends who are at DAL saying "We wont hire Comair pilots in the Future". If what is being said on the post by DAL pilots is true will this happen? Will they just look the other way from thier military pilot friends at comair who want to go to DAL when hiring resumes and say sorry you fly at comair, should have went to ASA? And what about the Comair pilots that have dad's or mom's flying for DAL? I guess they are screwed to since they are part of the WHOLE comair pilot group and they wont have the chance to fly for DAL in the Fututre. Is there a chance a DAL pilot mom or dad would tell thier kid hey I am not going to try and help you get hired at DAL becuase of the WHOLE comair pilot group is penalized and they are bad?? The pilots that ended up at Comair that would have got hired at DAL prior to the Furloughs will still get hired at DAL when they start hiring agian in my opinon.
Vegas,
You bring up a good point. I called my friends at Comair. Guys I did multiple tours of duty with in the Army. I asked if they knew what was going on and pretty much they said they just want to lay low because they are all FO's. Well it's their union and their voice when the MEC speaks for Comair. I explained that if they don't atleast say something then they are tying my hands when this all turns around. As for P-38 and his labor law suit go for it. I guess our guys should go ahead and file one now as well. I know you'll say you can have a job just give up the number. Well, and people have asked this, you can keep your number if you ever get picked up with Delta. We had 20 new hires in my class and not one person was given a piece of paper to sign giving up their number. Matter of fact it wasn't even mentioned. I guess companies that feel like they have something to offer don't require intimidation to keep people.
Good luck to all,
GII/GIII FO
furloughed Delta
You bring up a good point. I called my friends at Comair. Guys I did multiple tours of duty with in the Army. I asked if they knew what was going on and pretty much they said they just want to lay low because they are all FO's. Well it's their union and their voice when the MEC speaks for Comair. I explained that if they don't atleast say something then they are tying my hands when this all turns around. As for P-38 and his labor law suit go for it. I guess our guys should go ahead and file one now as well. I know you'll say you can have a job just give up the number. Well, and people have asked this, you can keep your number if you ever get picked up with Delta. We had 20 new hires in my class and not one person was given a piece of paper to sign giving up their number. Matter of fact it wasn't even mentioned. I guess companies that feel like they have something to offer don't require intimidation to keep people.
Good luck to all,
GII/GIII FO
furloughed Delta
LASvegas777
Active member
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2003
- Posts
- 30
I think at Comair there are a FEW that say "no way dont hire any furloughee from any airline unless they give up thier seniority #" and there are a few at DAL that say "no way we will hire any Comair pilots when we start to hiring". I think the key word is a FEW and when this indusrty turns around the majority of the two pilots groups opinion on this matter will out way the FEW.
B
Bill Mostelar
QUOTE]Originally posted by AFELLOWAVIATOR
[Bill ,
You sound like an idiot. ]
Nice you hot head. Try that one on a student who doesn't say what you want him to.
[We are suppose to be mad because our MEC was doing what they were elected to do? I hate to break the news to you, but our MEC was not elected to get us jobs at Delta, and they were not elected to get Delta pilots jobs at Comair. They were elected to represent the COMAIR PILOTS needs at every opportunity that arises.]
Well it sounds like circular thought and a circular argument. This is exactly what some of the less progressive knuckle heads at Delta are saying. We cannot make progress throwing fires at fires. We have a duty (IMHO) to see the Delta family through this crisis and better the profession. At some point we have got to meet each other half way. I cannot prove (nor can you) exactly what was said. The point I'm making is that a mutually benefitial relationship was layed on the table and JC and the boys puffed up. They did exactly what they have been saying the Delta guys do. What does a strike and a new ALPA pin, followed by a few years of unprecedented RJ growth, entitle you to act like arrogant assholes? If it's wrong it is wrong.
In the grand scheme of things you all need us as much or more than we need you. What was proposed was a mutally benefitial preferential hiring arrangement - for the bottom of the list. No stepping on toes, bumping jobs, or ruffling of feathers.
You as an instructor should embrace the concept of higher time jet pilots on the line. You as an instructor should see how the lines could be blurred and relationships improved if we had some of our pilots flying the CL-65. You as an instructor should see the wisdom of hiring DCI pilots for the mainline and the efficiencies that would be realized (experience in the DAL system etc.)
I guess you don't see the big picture. A furlough is as unfortunate as those who found themselves on strike. It is a time to lend a hand. We did when called upon and look what it gets us. A dichotomy of egos I guess.
Why does ASA not feel the need to swell up like CMR?
Please - only respond with substance. You can leave the name calling to the sim or instructor smoke break lounge.
Fly safe!
[Bill ,
You sound like an idiot. ]
Nice you hot head. Try that one on a student who doesn't say what you want him to.
[We are suppose to be mad because our MEC was doing what they were elected to do? I hate to break the news to you, but our MEC was not elected to get us jobs at Delta, and they were not elected to get Delta pilots jobs at Comair. They were elected to represent the COMAIR PILOTS needs at every opportunity that arises.]
Well it sounds like circular thought and a circular argument. This is exactly what some of the less progressive knuckle heads at Delta are saying. We cannot make progress throwing fires at fires. We have a duty (IMHO) to see the Delta family through this crisis and better the profession. At some point we have got to meet each other half way. I cannot prove (nor can you) exactly what was said. The point I'm making is that a mutually benefitial relationship was layed on the table and JC and the boys puffed up. They did exactly what they have been saying the Delta guys do. What does a strike and a new ALPA pin, followed by a few years of unprecedented RJ growth, entitle you to act like arrogant assholes? If it's wrong it is wrong.
In the grand scheme of things you all need us as much or more than we need you. What was proposed was a mutally benefitial preferential hiring arrangement - for the bottom of the list. No stepping on toes, bumping jobs, or ruffling of feathers.
You as an instructor should embrace the concept of higher time jet pilots on the line. You as an instructor should see how the lines could be blurred and relationships improved if we had some of our pilots flying the CL-65. You as an instructor should see the wisdom of hiring DCI pilots for the mainline and the efficiencies that would be realized (experience in the DAL system etc.)
I guess you don't see the big picture. A furlough is as unfortunate as those who found themselves on strike. It is a time to lend a hand. We did when called upon and look what it gets us. A dichotomy of egos I guess.
Why does ASA not feel the need to swell up like CMR?
Please - only respond with substance. You can leave the name calling to the sim or instructor smoke break lounge.
Fly safe!
AFELLOWAVIATOR
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2002
- Posts
- 411
OK Bill, I'll play your game.
Exactly how would this grand preff. hiring plan work? Keep in mind we were told the Military buddies would still have a leg up on us.
Why is it the Delta MEC refuses to work with our MEC on combatting the whupsaw? The only time we can meet with them is when they need something from us. This is why our MEC felt they needed to bring up our concerns during the meeting. The Delta MEC basically ignores them all other times.
It is not about why we do or do not want to hire furloughed Delta pilots.It is about our groups working together. Our MEC attempted to open discussions that went quite a bit farther than a simple hiring scheem, and were slapped down rather quickly and threatened. I do not think a preff. hiring plan was really what your MEC wanted. It was political and meant to get the focus off there short comings. Seemed to work, didn't it?
ASA mgt. decided to hire and not reguire numbers be given up. The ASA MEC was just along for the ride.
Answer this. Why do you think the Delta MEC felt they had to go public with the planned meeting with our MEC weeks before it happened? Weeks before they even contacted our MEC and arranged the meeting? And on the same note, you NEVER heard about a meeting planned with the ASA MEC????? Sounds kinda political? You betcha!
All the threats from our Delta "brothers" is laughable. It is making your pilot group really look petty and small minded.,
Exactly how would this grand preff. hiring plan work? Keep in mind we were told the Military buddies would still have a leg up on us.
Why is it the Delta MEC refuses to work with our MEC on combatting the whupsaw? The only time we can meet with them is when they need something from us. This is why our MEC felt they needed to bring up our concerns during the meeting. The Delta MEC basically ignores them all other times.
It is not about why we do or do not want to hire furloughed Delta pilots.It is about our groups working together. Our MEC attempted to open discussions that went quite a bit farther than a simple hiring scheem, and were slapped down rather quickly and threatened. I do not think a preff. hiring plan was really what your MEC wanted. It was political and meant to get the focus off there short comings. Seemed to work, didn't it?
ASA mgt. decided to hire and not reguire numbers be given up. The ASA MEC was just along for the ride.
Answer this. Why do you think the Delta MEC felt they had to go public with the planned meeting with our MEC weeks before it happened? Weeks before they even contacted our MEC and arranged the meeting? And on the same note, you NEVER heard about a meeting planned with the ASA MEC????? Sounds kinda political? You betcha!
All the threats from our Delta "brothers" is laughable. It is making your pilot group really look petty and small minded.,
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
- Posts
- 1,533
What is done is done. CMR MEC should stick to it's decision now.
There would be no advantage in changing. Right or wrong, ride it out.
Bluster and intimidation do not do much to strengthen an argument. One side sure seems to be using it as a tactic.
If the response from mainline pilots was more along the lines of -'how could you do this to a fellow alpa pilot', or, 'what can we do to improve relations', instead of: you sorry punks we'll make you pay!
Coming from another regional that had issues with its mainline pilot group, we were nothin' but scooter trash until they needed something - then: hey alpa brother..
Shove it, guys. Not buying it. The person on the top must make the first gesture. 'Pref hire' sounds pretty fishy to me.
To the mainline pilots who approach this with tact and diplomacy, this post is not directed at you in any way.
BTW, guys, intimidation usually betrays a weak position.
Flame on.
There would be no advantage in changing. Right or wrong, ride it out.
Bluster and intimidation do not do much to strengthen an argument. One side sure seems to be using it as a tactic.
If the response from mainline pilots was more along the lines of -'how could you do this to a fellow alpa pilot', or, 'what can we do to improve relations', instead of: you sorry punks we'll make you pay!
Coming from another regional that had issues with its mainline pilot group, we were nothin' but scooter trash until they needed something - then: hey alpa brother..
Shove it, guys. Not buying it. The person on the top must make the first gesture. 'Pref hire' sounds pretty fishy to me.
To the mainline pilots who approach this with tact and diplomacy, this post is not directed at you in any way.
BTW, guys, intimidation usually betrays a weak position.
Flame on.
Freight Dog
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 2,232
AFellowAviator,
You as a check airman and a sim instructor should acknowledge that "the only stupid question is the one that you didn't ask." At least that's what my instructors always said. I sincerely hope you don't conduct your training sessions in the same fashion.
I will acknowledge that your MEC did what a few SENIOR COMAIR pilots wanted, NOT the majority of the group. Somebody was saying if this had gone to a vote, there would have been more people voting FOR hiring of Delta furloughees than those who voted in favor of your contract.
Bill said it perfectly: "Does a strike and a new ALPA pin, followed by a few years of unprecedented RJ growth, entitle you to act like arrogant assholes? If it's wrong it is wrong." Let me expand on that a little bit. Comair is growing and expanding on account of Delta. There is still A LOT of hiring going on there, while Delta is announcing FURTHER furloughs. To cap it off, you have a group of Comair lifers suing ALPA because their careers are allegedly threatened by Delta scope clause. Now, your MEC won't even extend a hand to those unfortunate people who are furloughed from Delta and whose flying you took over. Add it all up. I'm just waiting for more "brotherly" actions from JC and the company.
Let me refresh your mind about your strike. Do you recall ALPA-wide assessments to put food on your table while you hold the line? Do you recall donations to your family fund? Do you recall MEC's passing resolutions and urging their managements to hire your pilots, namely UAL?
On another similar topic, isn't it Leo's job to seek scope relief? I mean after all, he is the CEO of Delta, not JC. Also if Delta did in fact give up even more flying through relaxing scope, who's to say that it wouldn't be shifted to SkyWest, ASA, ACA, or CHQ? After all, you guys don't have a scope that entitles you to all future DCI flying nor that precludes even your current flying from being outsourced.
Bottom line, this was a great opportunity for CMR and DAL to come together. If you guys truly did rank below squadron buddies, then perhaps that should have been a negotiated topic - "no sir, if you want our blessing, you give OUR pilots the first preference, THEN others who are not offering you jobs at this time." If your MEC held a line at that, I would applaud him and so would many other pilots because THAT would have been looking after the interests of Comair pilots.
Looking forward to your reply!
You as a check airman and a sim instructor should acknowledge that "the only stupid question is the one that you didn't ask." At least that's what my instructors always said. I sincerely hope you don't conduct your training sessions in the same fashion.
I will acknowledge that your MEC did what a few SENIOR COMAIR pilots wanted, NOT the majority of the group. Somebody was saying if this had gone to a vote, there would have been more people voting FOR hiring of Delta furloughees than those who voted in favor of your contract.
Bill said it perfectly: "Does a strike and a new ALPA pin, followed by a few years of unprecedented RJ growth, entitle you to act like arrogant assholes? If it's wrong it is wrong." Let me expand on that a little bit. Comair is growing and expanding on account of Delta. There is still A LOT of hiring going on there, while Delta is announcing FURTHER furloughs. To cap it off, you have a group of Comair lifers suing ALPA because their careers are allegedly threatened by Delta scope clause. Now, your MEC won't even extend a hand to those unfortunate people who are furloughed from Delta and whose flying you took over. Add it all up. I'm just waiting for more "brotherly" actions from JC and the company.
Let me refresh your mind about your strike. Do you recall ALPA-wide assessments to put food on your table while you hold the line? Do you recall donations to your family fund? Do you recall MEC's passing resolutions and urging their managements to hire your pilots, namely UAL?
On another similar topic, isn't it Leo's job to seek scope relief? I mean after all, he is the CEO of Delta, not JC. Also if Delta did in fact give up even more flying through relaxing scope, who's to say that it wouldn't be shifted to SkyWest, ASA, ACA, or CHQ? After all, you guys don't have a scope that entitles you to all future DCI flying nor that precludes even your current flying from being outsourced.
Bottom line, this was a great opportunity for CMR and DAL to come together. If you guys truly did rank below squadron buddies, then perhaps that should have been a negotiated topic - "no sir, if you want our blessing, you give OUR pilots the first preference, THEN others who are not offering you jobs at this time." If your MEC held a line at that, I would applaud him and so would many other pilots because THAT would have been looking after the interests of Comair pilots.
Looking forward to your reply!
AFELLOWAVIATOR said:
AFELLOWAVIATOR
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2002
- Posts
- 411
Freight DOG,
I have come to the conclusion that you are simply wanting to argue. I have rebutted everything you have said and you still use the same ol line. One more time, THE COMAIR PILOTS ALREADY VOTED!! THEY VOTED THESE PEOPLE IN OFFICE TO REPRESENT THEM!!!!
As far as my teaching, I would most likely quit if I had to deal with bull headed idiots like you all the time.
IT WAS NOT ABOUT PREFF HIREING!!! IT WAS A POLITICAL MOVE!!!
I have come to the conclusion that you are simply wanting to argue. I have rebutted everything you have said and you still use the same ol line. One more time, THE COMAIR PILOTS ALREADY VOTED!! THEY VOTED THESE PEOPLE IN OFFICE TO REPRESENT THEM!!!!
As far as my teaching, I would most likely quit if I had to deal with bull headed idiots like you all the time.
IT WAS NOT ABOUT PREFF HIREING!!! IT WAS A POLITICAL MOVE!!!
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