DAL pilot

[cmrflyer]

I would be very happy to have the DAL pilots join the CMR pilot group and fly our aircraft, I would also be happy for the chance to get preferential hiring with Delta when things turn around.
I have one question though, would I be able to keep my Comair seniority number incase Delta ever furlough again?
Thanks for the help.

 

[cmrflyer]

PS. How much open time are you guys picking up these days?

NICE

 

[PositiveRate]

Lumber,

Yeah, maybe the truth hurts and that's why your posts set me off. I just don't think the truths you speak of are as universal as we might be led to believe. Trust me, I spent most of the last year furloughed from another carrier, so I know how bad it sucks to be on the street. I just can't imagine any reasonable interviewer would ever hold all this "personally" against a candidate.

I have nothing but respect and admiration for the Delta pilots and have never received anything but the same from them.

 

[acaTerry]

The question still isn't answered..

Still, no one has shown any proof or answer to the question at hand: HOW DOES HIRING A DAL PILOT, WHO GOES TO ROCK BOTTOM OF THE LIST, HURT CMR PILOTS?
So what if he keeps his seniority? The risk of wasting training costs is not an issue because these are established pilots who will pass the training. And besides, recall is so far away, CMR will get its moneys worth out of the DAL guys. Talk about scope, as much as I hate to say it (because I love the RJ's myself) the laxity of scope is why there are so many DAL pilots on furlough. Really, I HATE TO ADMIT IT, but if the RJ's were in mainline hands there would actually be upward movements going on. On the other hand, thank God they are not because RJ's are the only reason regionals can pay what they pay. If Sept 11th never happened I'd still be saying the RJ is not a threat to anyone. But it did happen. And all of the sudden, the RJ is the center of the fight again. But let's not get into the whipsaw issue here. I won't even reply to posts that bait on this issue. I just want to see undeniable proof that hiring a furloughed DAL pilot hurts the CMR group.

 

[rjcap]

the laxity of scope is why there are so many DAL pilots on furlough.

United has had the strongest scope in the industry. Look what it did for them !

Also in todays news:

ExpressJet Holdings Inc. (NYSE:XJT - News), which runs Continental's Express service on smaller regional jets, on Wednesday said its quarterly profit more than doubled as its fleet grew. Regional jets, which are cheaper to run and can fly to smaller markets while still pulling in profits, have become an integral part of the recovery plans at nearly every major airline.

 

[acaTerry]

UAL was in trouble LOOOOONG before the CRJ.....

Besides, I was only talking about scope in terms of jobs. Hell, I love the RJ's, but I also have to admit where someone else has a point. Even if I differ on it.

 

[General Lee]

Positive Rate,

You seem to be missing the point. The reason we are mad is that in our time of need, you could not come through for our most needy pilots. It's like a slap in the face. We helped your whole group--even your MEC---when you needed our help. We supported you and helped by writing checks each month along with all of the other ALPA pilots. The Scope issue has been relaxed----to a tune of 44% of our flying---which may equate to many many upgrades for you. Why would we allow more 70 seaters that would take more of our flying away, resulting in more furloughs? (-----although I swear we had a No Furlough clause in there somewhere...) Now the ASA guys will have an advantage over you when we eventually hire again. You don't think that will be for awhile? Hmmmm. Don't bet on it. We are supposedly interested in anything United has to sell ( Our CFO--Michele Burns said that two weeks ago in a big pow wow in ATL
and that could mean expansion when needed. We have more cash on hand than almost every carrier, and "Borrowing power" according to Burns. We are in Arbitration right now for the furloughs, and apparently they are meeting on Jan 30 to discuss this--and give a ruling one week after that. And, to top it off---you surely aren't betting against the company that owns your company, right? Leo Mullin is a smart guy, and we have a contract he signed. Sure seems like you guys are rolling the dice over there at Comair. ASA only hired 13 of our guys, but they get a signed agreement for preferential hiring. You don't. Ouch, that hurts.

Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[rjcap]

ASA only hired 13 of our guys, but they get a signed agreement for preferential hiring

Gen Lee,

Could you tell me what that preferential hiring agreement says specifically ?? I haven't seen anything posted at ASA on this.

thanks

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

What is so funny about all this is the Delta pilots on this and other boards have probably made it impossible for Delta NOT to hire a boat load of Comair applicants when they resume hiring.
You ever heard of labor laws? Discrimination laws?

I can see Leo now. "Uh, o k ...., not hire Comair pilots because the pilots don't want me to, and then hundreds of unfair labor law suits to follow? I don't think so. I know a lot of pilots who already have talked to lawyers, and they are having them track these post for future reference.

You guys crack me up

 

[blzr]

Comair, all of us at U.S. Air Express salute you! Stay the course or you will be lubing your backside like we had to do on LOA 86 or Jets for Jobs.

Couple of thing.

1. Did you mainline guys preferentially hire any of us commuter pilots.... I don't think so....

2. Times they are a-changin'. Airlines are going to be flying many more SJ's as you heavy drivers call them. You at the majore can either go willingly into the future, or be dragged kicking and screaming. Unfortunately, that will mean lower wages and working a few more days a month.

3. This aplies more to U.S. Airways, because the mainline boys and girls have scoped us out of anything but UNDUCTED FANS claiming that we would take away their flying. Well, if they had grown their express division, they wouldn't have 3000 pilots on furlough.

Keep fighting the good fight!

 

[Lumber Yak]

Afellowaviator,

All the Delta guys (selection committee, Chief Pilot, etc.) have to do is put the Comair pilots at the bottom of the continually-growing interview list. Back when hiring at Delta was hot, miliatary pilots seemed to supercede the regional/corporate pilots all of the time. Class mixes were weighted toward the military pilots by a large margin - you had a good chance if you had C-5 time.

So, spotting Comair on your resume MIGHT mean that you wait a lot longer for that initial interview - after the hundreds or thousands of F-16 and C-17 pilots get their interview slots.... With Delta's preference for military in the past, I never did see any lawsuits filed... Who knows how it will work out? I'd feel better if I were an ASA pilot, though...

 

[Freight Dog]

You know... not liking you personally, not liking your working background, not liking your attitude are not considered "discrimination" and they are not violation or any kind of labor law. In other words, if it's the chief pilot, line pilot and HR rep doing the interviews and hiring, HR rep may like you, chief pilot and line pilot don't, guess what.... you ain't getting hired, and there is abolutely NOTHING you can do about it unless you can prove that you weren't hired based on your age, sex, marital status, disability, etc. Take Delta to court over "unfair hiring" and all they'd have to say is... I didn't like him, I wasn't satisfied with his answers, etc, and your hundreds of "unfair labor practice lawsuits" would be thrown out in a single ruling.

Ask thousands of highly-qualified pilots who never even got a chance to get interviewed by UAL back during the high volume of hiring. Goes to show you, you may not even get a call for the interview, and absolutely nothing you can do about it.

What is so funny about all this is the Delta pilots on this and other boards have probably made it impossible for Delta NOT to hire a boat load of Comair applicants when they resume hiring.
You ever heard of labor laws? Discrimination laws?

I can see Leo now. "Uh, o k ...., not hire Comair pilots because the pilots don't want me to, and then hundreds of unfair labor law suits to follow? I don't think so. I know a lot of pilots who already have talked to lawyers, and they are having them track these post for future reference.

You guys crack me up

 

[100LL... Again!]

------------------------------------
All the Delta guys (selection committee, Chief Pilot, etc.) have to do is put the Comair pilots at the bottom of the continually-growing interview list. Back when hiring at Delta was hot, miliatary pilots seemed to supercede the regional/corporate pilots all of the time. Class mixes were weighted toward the military pilots by a large margin - you had a good chance if you had C-5 time.

So, spotting Comair on your resume MIGHT mean that you wait a lot longer for that initial interview - after the hundreds or thousands of F-16 and C-17 pilots get their interview slots.... With Delta's preference for military in the past, I never did see any lawsuits filed... Who knows how it will work out? I'd feel better if I were an ASA pilot, though...
------------------------------------

Question:

Given the viewpoints so often expressed by individuals on this board (that I am guessing work for Delta), why wouldn't it be reasonable to expect this to be the outcome even if none of this other stuff had occurred?

My impression of the mainline pilots is that they think regional pilots are 'scooter trash' and only to be hired when you can't get enough military pilots. I have not seen much to dispel this impression. It is not stated outwardly, as much as it is by subtle insinuation.

 

[FlyingSig]

My impression of the mainline pilots is that they think regional pilots are 'scooter trash' and only to be hired when you can't get enough military pilots. I have not seen much to dispel this impression. It is not stated outwardly, as much as it is by subtle insinuation.

I'm not sure which message board you read (other then the AMR thread) to get that impression. The vast majority of DAL pilots that post here have a civilian background.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Some of it comes from the ALPA board.

Again, it is not so much outwardly stated as it is implied.


BTW: The guys here who are saying that 'Delta pilots should never forget' the CMR MEC issue when it comes to hiring CMR pilots. They accuse the CMR MEC of using the DAL furloughees as bargaining chips.

Seems to me that they are using CMR pilots who did not support the decision as bargaining chips. "See what your MEC did? Now you'll never fly for Delta".

If - IF - that kind of attitude is prevalent, who'd want to?

 

[redsoxfan]

After seeing this tread grow and grow by the minute, it makes me feel worse that the Comair MEC didnt offer pref. hiring for the DAL furloughlees with open arms. But when they made that decision it was them, the few Comair MEC members, not all 1600 Comair Pilots. You can argue and say the"Comair MEC represents all Comair pilots" which they do when we vote on an issue or at least can speak our opinons prior to something IMPORTANT being decieded. When the decision was made by Comair MEC to not offer pref. hiring, there wasnt anything memtioned to the Comair Pilot group prior, no memo put out saying "we are meeting with DAL MEC about pref. hiring asking us to give our ideas and opinions about that subject". Most Comair pilots heard about this meeting after the fact, and for me I heard about it on this website. ASA MEC did the right thing, Comairs MEC so far hasnt, but to say to all the Comiar pilots that wanted the DAL furloughees to get hired at comair, you have no chance of going to DAL now, seems like a large stereotype put on the whole pilot group. I know it doesnt matter how many DAL furloughess would actually go to comair, more importanly its the thought that counts for the offer, but to stereotype a whole pilot group over an issue that so far only 13 DAL Furloughees have taken advantage over at ASA, how important is it. I guess when the Comair pilots get hired at NWA, AA, CAL, SWA, UPS, FEDEX, UAL?, JB and not DAL we will find out, even thou the vast majority of opions where not spoke at the 1st DAL -Comair MEC. Cant we just all get along, I thought Pilots where suppossed to be friends???

 

[Brother Francis]

If indeed the rank and file at CMR are in favor of preferential hiring of DL furloughs, perhaps a grassroots campaign would convince the MEC to reverse their position. Worth a try.

$0.02

 

[mulk]

Just my two cents!

Here's my opinion(two cents worth).
Don't expect me to retaliate or respond to anything posted after this because, I won't. I was browsing this forum mainly to offer some advice to new hires and once again I am appalled at what I read.
It's amazing how the haves always tell the have nots how they can't believe the have nots are satisfied to work for low wages( As if they have a CHOICE). I guess you all were never fortunate enough to fly for a company and make minimum wage. Or how do you say it, "I've paid my dues and won't go back to that pay level"! I read that here in this forum but, I guess unemployment must have ran out. Or maybe you're the ONE pilot that would quit your low paying flying job just to make a point about an issue you have absolutely NO control over! Tell that to your three kids and spouse. Oh honey, I quit my job today because I should be making more money and if I only make my current amount we can only pay our bills and feed our family and the mainline pilots (the goal of every pilot at one time or another until reality and timing overwhelm you) now are being forced back into our situation and think that I should make this statement so I get more money and they get their jobs back. Honey, what do you think?
And what's with the stereotyping? Let's hate and bash all COMAIR pilots because of a decision that was made by a few representatives from each respective pilot group. How many pilots were polled before that meeting? Just yesterday, I had a mainline Delta pilot question me about the COMAIR decision not to give preferential hiring to furloughed Delta pilots. He also said in the same breathe that we are the same company and don't need to be bickering amongst the pilot groups.....OK, well said!

I thought, "What's your solution? Merge the lists or not(didn't happen last time), hire them at the bottom of seniority and allow them to go back to mainline when recalled, or after recall allow for flow thru to mainline by seniority? There are a lot more ideas out there. Just some that I read. All have financial implications for management and more importantly for those pilots affected by the decision." Merging would put me on the street. But thats OK, I'm not used to the big pay check, RIGHT?

All I could honestly say was, " I agree, thanks for the ride. " I've been at Comair less that a year and don't know all the reasons for the decision. I am thankful to God that I have a flying job with a very stabil company during the worst of times. Believe me, I'm not happy that Delta has pilots on furlough. But, I mostly fear for my brothren still on active duty! I can deal with being out of work. Burying my comrades I dread! You see, I'm just another former military pilot trying to make it to the show, live the dream too! I hope all mainline pilots don't hate me because I chose to deal with the circumstances dealt to me at the present time. If that is the Delta pilot group stance, to never hire a COMAIR pilot, then the group has shut out a group of experienced former military and civilian pilots that COMAIR has been able to hire under the present economic conditions.
I could go on but I won't. I will spend the next few days enjoying the time with my kids. Then, I'll continue to deal with my present circumstances.
I hope I didn't ruffle anyones feathers! Good Luck! Have faith!Stop the Insanity!
"SEMPER FI"

 

[Muskycat]

Ok I've heard enough about scope and bla bla bla.
Has anyone taken the time to figure why Comair management doesn't buy a certificate and operated Dc-9s, 737, or Airbuses as a separate entity.
Can they do it? Sure they can, If they can't the only thing that would stop them is the comairs contract, and I don't know what it states. The Delta scope is strictly DIC. So if you comair guys want to be the next JetBlue a non DIC carrier. Talk to your management and get it going. Stop whining about how Delta scope is holding you back; Think beyond 50 and 70 seat jets. But if everybody at Comair thinks the only thing limiting their future is Dal scope, think again.
I'll take a wild guess and say that the Comair contract does not allow Comair company to start another carrier, as mentioned above. And if it doesn’t then sounds like your management is holding you back.
And if you think the above sounds outrageous, like it has never been done before. I've got news for you, it has. I'll give the answer tomorrow I want to see if anyone can guess what company it is. This carrier was started by a Comair like company that was a connection carrier. It took profits that it made from its main line agreement and started a DC-9 operation, a separate whole entity on its own. And no, the pilot’s list did not merge between the two; in fact the start up was non-union.
Since the start up of this airline, the company has been sold, and is still in business today. The company that bought the startup made a bad name for themselves after an unfortunate accident. So they needed a new name. Who is it?

 

[flx757]

Muskycat,

You have your facts a bit muddled. The "spin-off" airline operated B-737s. The DC-9 operator that had an accident merged with this B-737 operator and took their name. And the merged company is doing quite well for themselves these days.

I'd venture a guess that since Comair is owned by Delta Air Lines, the Comair "management" as you put it, is not really in a position to start a new carrier. I don't think the Comair contract is what is preventing a venture such as this. It's the fact that Comair is not an independent company.

In the example you cited, Mesaba Holdings wasn't owned by Northwest, and could take their earnings and do with it what they pleased. Such as creating a new company, AirTran Airways.

The situation with Comair and Delta Air Lines is entirely different.

 

[Muskycat]

You're right, I forgot it was 737s Airtran started with. Then after Value Jet bought them out they had DC-9s. And I would agree that Airtran is doing very well these days.

 

[Bill Mostelar]

shame

So who pays in the long run? The young guys at Comair. A resolution was just passed at mainline Delta Alpa to give preferential hiring to ASA pilots when we start again. It will happen, just look at the history of the airlines. Fanman is right in the fact that we will not forget.

Good luck to all,

GII/GIII FO
former a DAL737FO [/B]

I agree 100%. It is a shame for the young guys at CMR. When DAL starts hiring again, they may miss out. DAL will hire again in 5 yrs or so, and at that time, many will be trying to distance themselves from the heat of this era.

Either pressure your reps to change their stance now......or.... well I guess I'll be looking forward to proudly sharing the cockpit with a former ASA newhire.

Thanks guys (ASA) for your reasonable and honorable stance. It will come back around.

 

[P38JLightning]

What is so funny about all this is the Delta pilots on this and other boards have probably made it impossible for Delta NOT to hire a boat load of Comair applicants when they resume hiring.
You ever heard of labor laws? Discrimination laws?

I can see Leo now. "Uh, o k ...., not hire Comair pilots because the pilots don't want me to, and then hundreds of unfair labor law suits to follow? I don't think so. I know a lot of pilots who already have talked to lawyers, and they are having them track these post for future reference.

You guys crack me up


__________________
Afellowaviator


Actually fellow, its highly unlikely the comair pilots who fully intend on *applying* to Delta someday would be NEARLY as interested in suing to get a Delta job, as compared to those who are currently suing for that same brass ring already.

Perhaps your assertion is that if those who intend on applying find themselves blackballed (which is probably one of the main reasons the Delta MEC's request was rejected in the first place...to lash out against the young punks who "unfairly" go to mainline "ahead of" more senior people for whatever reason) then they, too, would try to sue their way to the top, in the name of "fairness."

Not likely either. You see, there are plenty of Delta pre hires already at Comair. Lots of senior Delta captains send their sons and daughters to the Comair Academy. You can bet your bottom dollar THEY won't be affected by any blackball. Nor will any military "squardon buddies" or any other special interest group. So Delta will be able to say "look at all these Comair pilots we're still hiring...what do you mean discrimination??"

All thats been done with the denial of the Delta furlough/seniority request is to hose the average junior line pilot who might someday want to seek employment at Delta someday. While you have suceeded in making sure most of those junior to you at Comair will ever go to Delta someday, "ahead of" you, odds are anyone in the future who would aspire to get hired by Delta would likely also be interested in United, Northwest, Jet Blue, Southwest, Continental, Air Tran, Alaska, FedEx, UPS, DHL, the next low fare start up d'jour airline or whoever else.

So you've done nothing to control future attrition, nor enlighten the clueless junior pilots with a "career airline" epiphany. You know, if they intend on staying they will fight harder for what's right. Which, by the way, if you even believe in the first place, then you owe the junior pilots who went on strike a HUGE appology, because they were a massive part of the pilot unity of that time. A time if you remember, when most airlines were still hiring. If all they cared about was getting their time and getting out, how do you explain the high level of unity and Comair patriotisim?

So sit back and enjoy the fact that no Comair pilot without an inside track will ever work for Delta some day, "ahead of" you. Other than that one little thing, which won't affect your life one bit, not much has changed. What a grand victory.

 

[Otto]

Question for DAL guys

Simple question for anyone at DAL. If it's the senior guys at Comair (the RJ career types) causing all the trouble, why are you punishing the young guys ie. the wrong people?

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

MUSKYCAT, Your so ill informed it is laughable. The Delta pilots contract is the reason Comair can never FLY ANY THING LARGER THAN 70 SEATS. i WILL LET IT GO AT THAT, GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT BEFORE YOU GET ON THIS BOARD AND MAKE AN IDIOT OF YOUR SELF AGAIN.

 

[Muskycat]

Afellowaviator





Yes I'm fully aware of the fact of the Delta scope limits Comair to 70 seats which is also tied to main line growth. That's why I said the following:

"Has anyone taken the time to figure why Comair management doesn't buy a certificate and operated Dc-9s, 737, or Airbuses as a separate entity."

Do you know what it means to operate as a separate entity???
Yes that's right, a company with a name other than Comair that's not a DIC carrier. The Delta Scope only pertains to DIC.

 

[Bill Mostelar]

Re: Question for DAL guys

Simple question for anyone at DAL. If it's the senior guys at Comair (the RJ career types) causing all the trouble, why are you punishing the young guys ie. the wrong people?

Why punish the Iraqi people, when it's leadership that's to blame?

At some point there is some accountability that has to take place. If the average CMR pilot disagrees with leadership, then it's time for reform. Sitting idly will not cut it in today’s competitive world.

Unfortunately for JC, Cory, BB and the boys, they don't hold the same cards as they did during their strike. That was cutthroat, black and white; where each side was expected to fight till death, and then get along later. This is much different and similar to a public low blow of a family member. You don't do that.

We were on course to begin to fix this thing, and those guys are (once again) looking for more controversy, more hype, and really taking things too far.

If their own constituents and subordinates are willing to do nothing, then they are aligning themselves with leadership who is going to sell them at the meat market. I don't feel sorry for the junior CMR pilots who are not willing to control their own destiny and at least speak up.

As I said, I look forward to returning favors to the ASA pilot group. If nothing else, (it's not just where they were hired) they choose to elect and give ongoing support to progressive leadership.

Those who sit on their hands are part of the problem. Don't align yourselves with the "new lunatic fringe". Stand up for yourselves. Use the brain God gave you to stick with the (historically) financially rewarded (not company, but group of aviators who have the strongest inherent bargaining leverage).
....rather than some ex-salesman, televangelist type and his henchmen.


Good luck.

 

[Cliff]

This still doesn't mean you are not an ALPA scab. Are you?

Man that took some thought, Hey????? Nope not a scab just someone with an opinion...

 

[Cliff]

DS: The Delta furloughs would not kick RJ guys out on the street, they would go to the bottom of the list?

Cliff: Why the bottom??? They have been flying the RJ's longer than you!! You go to the bottom of the list, heck your not even on their seniority list!!! What gives you the right to kick an ASA pilot out of his or her seat AND have a higher seniority number??? Let me guess,,, your a big bad mainline guy at Delta.. Big deal...

DS: Who would that hurt, especially if they are hiring 40-50 a month?

Cliff: Your fellow ALPA Bro that who... I'm sorry I forgot your an ALPA guy too... Who's a scab????

DS: They were offered something like preferential hiring to allow our guys to go to the BOTTOM?

Cliff: What????????

DS: So, you want them to "suck it up" and march to the unemployment line?

Cliff: Yes, like a man.. Not a whining anti-RJ (the sky is falling, the sky is falling) Delta Dip... Grow up the smaller RJ's are in your crads... The days of flying 767's on 300 mile hops are over... Face it.. Adapt and overcome or die...


DS: Well, they might do that for a while, but eventually they will pass your a$$ in their new Porsche.

Cliff: OK just drop the pipe and it will be just fine....

DS: And, you want our guys to change some work rules. Hmmm. Sounds like Delta is in such dire straits----they still have enough money to buy $1.1 billion worth of new RJ's this year alone, and have $2.6 billion in cash, with another $2 Billion in equity to mortgage if they have too.

Cliff: Yep, the work rules that allow a reserve guy to turn down a trip and then call in on a day off to work and get paid time and a half... You guys are killing your own company... Better start working 70 hours for 70 hours pay!!!! Like the rest of the world...


DS: What work rules do you want us to change? Fly more? Nope, not with guys out. Pay cut? How about management also, and Comair and ASA guys--just to keep it fair.


Cliff: This is classic... Won't fly more because of guys being on furlough... Meaning, you won't fly the 80 you are paid for??? Well thats a catch 22... Lets not work and F**k the company because our buds are on the street because of a slowdown and therefore profits drop and guess what??? More furloughs...

Profit = Expense's - cost - selling price

Profit ratio% = ( profit / selling price )100

Think about an action before there is an reaction.... Not working hurts a fellow Union member.. It doesn't help them......

The way the work rules are now its a paradigm... Its time to reset them..

ALPA cannot serve both the Majors and Regionals within the same company... Its clearly a conflict of interest... For pilots to fight the RJ's- demanding limits- and the next demanding a seat clearly shows cowardice and lack of integrity...

Being a Delta pilot does not allow you to force yourself into a seat..

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Bill ,

You sound like an idiot. Our MEC was doing there job. They entered that meeting with one thing in mind. COMAIR PILOTS. It IS WHAT THEY WERE ELECTED TO DO. They are not AIR. INC.

I can't believe some of the post I am reading on the subject. We are suppose to be mad because our MEC was doing what they were elected to do? I hate to break the news to you, but our MEC was not elected to get us jobs at Delta, and they were not elected to get Delta pilots jobs at Comair. They were elected to represent the COMAIR PILOTS needs at every opportunity that arises. Your MEC had issues and our MEC had issues. Ours listened and yours did not. In fact, your people resorted to empty, shameless threats when our MEC would not cave to there demands. I would be embarrased if I was a Delta Pilot, the way your rep. acted.