DAL pilot

[Freight Dog]

AFellowAviator.. do you treat your trainees like that too?

"You are an idiot! Now let's do that V1 cut again."


As it's been said TIME AND TIME again, not extending a hand to furloughees is low, and what CMR MEC wants amounts to an extortion, not an offer.

Can't blame DAL MEC at all for walking out...

I still ask you and you refuse to answer:

What do you care if it's a 1200 hour CFI, ex-Midway, or a furloughed Delta pilot that's sitting to your right and is junior to you? How is that "protecting your interests"? Is it perhaps jealousy that the other guy has a job waiting for him at Delta? What is it?

STILL waiting for a response from AFELLOWAVIATOR.


Best regards!

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

DOG,

Your question is stupid.You will not acknowledge that our MEC was doing what they were elected to do. It has absolutely nothing to do with getting us jobs. Talk about extortion. We are now members of the Delta family, and they refuse to acknoledge that fact. They do not want to work with us period, until now that they needed something.

We have to be in a defensive mode. Look at the US Air wholly owned. They tried for years to work with mainline, and what did it get them? Delta pilots would of already tried some thing lke a j4j extortion if they thought they could get away with it.

They simply want to get JC and company out of office in hopes of them being replaced with a passive group that will let them walk all over them. Our mgt. did not like them either, and why? Because they would not roll over. I think it is absolutely great that we have an MEC that puts our pilot group first.

Our MEC went to the meeting with the Comair pilots interest at hand, as they should of, and the Delta Mec went to the meeting with the Delta pilots interest at hand, as they should of.

It was an ambush by the Deltra mec, period. They announced weeks ahead of time that they were going to do it, unlike there meeting with the ASA MEC. They knew our MEC would do there job, and insist that scope be talked about. It was political. They were and still are attempting to drive a wedge between our MEC and the pilots. It aint gonna work. Virtually every Comair pilot I talk to has the attitude that the Delta MEC was acting out of bad faith and they are essentially full of shi%$.

 

[LASvegas777]

If the WHOLE Comair pilots group gets penalized for not lending a hand to DAL furloughees for a decision made by an elect few, I feel really bad for the Comair pilots that are ex miltary F-16, F-18,
F-14, B-52, C-5, KC-135 pilots that had to go to Comair in the past 1.5 yr since DAL wasnt hiring, and now that they are at Comair and part of the WHOLE comair pilot group, they will be penalized by thier own military friends who are at DAL saying "We wont hire Comair pilots in the Future". If what is being said on the post by DAL pilots is true will this happen? Will they just look the other way from thier military pilot friends at comair who want to go to DAL when hiring resumes and say sorry you fly at comair, should have went to ASA? And what about the Comair pilots that have dad's or mom's flying for DAL? I guess they are screwed to since they are part of the WHOLE comair pilot group and they wont have the chance to fly for DAL in the Fututre. Is there a chance a DAL pilot mom or dad would tell thier kid hey I am not going to try and help you get hired at DAL becuase of the WHOLE comair pilot group is penalized and they are bad?? The pilots that ended up at Comair that would have got hired at DAL prior to the Furloughs will still get hired at DAL when they start hiring agian in my opinon.

 

[DAL737FO]

Vegas,

You bring up a good point. I called my friends at Comair. Guys I did multiple tours of duty with in the Army. I asked if they knew what was going on and pretty much they said they just want to lay low because they are all FO's. Well it's their union and their voice when the MEC speaks for Comair. I explained that if they don't atleast say something then they are tying my hands when this all turns around. As for P-38 and his labor law suit go for it. I guess our guys should go ahead and file one now as well. I know you'll say you can have a job just give up the number. Well, and people have asked this, you can keep your number if you ever get picked up with Delta. We had 20 new hires in my class and not one person was given a piece of paper to sign giving up their number. Matter of fact it wasn't even mentioned. I guess companies that feel like they have something to offer don't require intimidation to keep people.

Good luck to all,

GII/GIII FO
furloughed Delta

 

[LASvegas777]

I think at Comair there are a FEW that say "no way dont hire any furloughee from any airline unless they give up thier seniority #" and there are a few at DAL that say "no way we will hire any Comair pilots when we start to hiring". I think the key word is a FEW and when this indusrty turns around the majority of the two pilots groups opinion on this matter will out way the FEW.

 

[Bill Mostelar]

QUOTE]Originally posted by AFELLOWAVIATOR


[Bill ,

You sound like an idiot. ]

Nice you hot head. Try that one on a student who doesn't say what you want him to.

[We are suppose to be mad because our MEC was doing what they were elected to do? I hate to break the news to you, but our MEC was not elected to get us jobs at Delta, and they were not elected to get Delta pilots jobs at Comair. They were elected to represent the COMAIR PILOTS needs at every opportunity that arises.]

Well it sounds like circular thought and a circular argument. This is exactly what some of the less progressive knuckle heads at Delta are saying. We cannot make progress throwing fires at fires. We have a duty (IMHO) to see the Delta family through this crisis and better the profession. At some point we have got to meet each other half way. I cannot prove (nor can you) exactly what was said. The point I'm making is that a mutually benefitial relationship was layed on the table and JC and the boys puffed up. They did exactly what they have been saying the Delta guys do. What does a strike and a new ALPA pin, followed by a few years of unprecedented RJ growth, entitle you to act like arrogant assholes? If it's wrong it is wrong.

In the grand scheme of things you all need us as much or more than we need you. What was proposed was a mutally benefitial preferential hiring arrangement - for the bottom of the list. No stepping on toes, bumping jobs, or ruffling of feathers.

You as an instructor should embrace the concept of higher time jet pilots on the line. You as an instructor should see how the lines could be blurred and relationships improved if we had some of our pilots flying the CL-65. You as an instructor should see the wisdom of hiring DCI pilots for the mainline and the efficiencies that would be realized (experience in the DAL system etc.)

I guess you don't see the big picture. A furlough is as unfortunate as those who found themselves on strike. It is a time to lend a hand. We did when called upon and look what it gets us. A dichotomy of egos I guess.

Why does ASA not feel the need to swell up like CMR?

Please - only respond with substance. You can leave the name calling to the sim or instructor smoke break lounge.

Fly safe!

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

OK Bill, I'll play your game.

Exactly how would this grand preff. hiring plan work? Keep in mind we were told the Military buddies would still have a leg up on us.

Why is it the Delta MEC refuses to work with our MEC on combatting the whupsaw? The only time we can meet with them is when they need something from us. This is why our MEC felt they needed to bring up our concerns during the meeting. The Delta MEC basically ignores them all other times.
It is not about why we do or do not want to hire furloughed Delta pilots.It is about our groups working together. Our MEC attempted to open discussions that went quite a bit farther than a simple hiring scheem, and were slapped down rather quickly and threatened. I do not think a preff. hiring plan was really what your MEC wanted. It was political and meant to get the focus off there short comings. Seemed to work, didn't it?


ASA mgt. decided to hire and not reguire numbers be given up. The ASA MEC was just along for the ride.

Answer this. Why do you think the Delta MEC felt they had to go public with the planned meeting with our MEC weeks before it happened? Weeks before they even contacted our MEC and arranged the meeting? And on the same note, you NEVER heard about a meeting planned with the ASA MEC????? Sounds kinda political? You betcha!


All the threats from our Delta "brothers" is laughable. It is making your pilot group really look petty and small minded.,

 

[100LL... Again!]

What is done is done. CMR MEC should stick to it's decision now.
There would be no advantage in changing. Right or wrong, ride it out.

Bluster and intimidation do not do much to strengthen an argument. One side sure seems to be using it as a tactic.

If the response from mainline pilots was more along the lines of -'how could you do this to a fellow alpa pilot', or, 'what can we do to improve relations', instead of: you sorry punks we'll make you pay!

Coming from another regional that had issues with its mainline pilot group, we were nothin' but scooter trash until they needed something - then: hey alpa brother..

Shove it, guys. Not buying it. The person on the top must make the first gesture. 'Pref hire' sounds pretty fishy to me.

To the mainline pilots who approach this with tact and diplomacy, this post is not directed at you in any way.

BTW, guys, intimidation usually betrays a weak position.

Flame on.

 

[Freight Dog]

AFellowAviator,

You as a check airman and a sim instructor should acknowledge that "the only stupid question is the one that you didn't ask." At least that's what my instructors always said. I sincerely hope you don't conduct your training sessions in the same fashion.

I will acknowledge that your MEC did what a few SENIOR COMAIR pilots wanted, NOT the majority of the group. Somebody was saying if this had gone to a vote, there would have been more people voting FOR hiring of Delta furloughees than those who voted in favor of your contract.

Bill said it perfectly: "Does a strike and a new ALPA pin, followed by a few years of unprecedented RJ growth, entitle you to act like arrogant assholes? If it's wrong it is wrong." Let me expand on that a little bit. Comair is growing and expanding on account of Delta. There is still A LOT of hiring going on there, while Delta is announcing FURTHER furloughs. To cap it off, you have a group of Comair lifers suing ALPA because their careers are allegedly threatened by Delta scope clause. Now, your MEC won't even extend a hand to those unfortunate people who are furloughed from Delta and whose flying you took over. Add it all up. I'm just waiting for more "brotherly" actions from JC and the company.

Let me refresh your mind about your strike. Do you recall ALPA-wide assessments to put food on your table while you hold the line? Do you recall donations to your family fund? Do you recall MEC's passing resolutions and urging their managements to hire your pilots, namely UAL?

On another similar topic, isn't it Leo's job to seek scope relief? I mean after all, he is the CEO of Delta, not JC. Also if Delta did in fact give up even more flying through relaxing scope, who's to say that it wouldn't be shifted to SkyWest, ASA, ACA, or CHQ? After all, you guys don't have a scope that entitles you to all future DCI flying nor that precludes even your current flying from being outsourced.

Bottom line, this was a great opportunity for CMR and DAL to come together. If you guys truly did rank below squadron buddies, then perhaps that should have been a negotiated topic - "no sir, if you want our blessing, you give OUR pilots the first preference, THEN others who are not offering you jobs at this time." If your MEC held a line at that, I would applaud him and so would many other pilots because THAT would have been looking after the interests of Comair pilots.

Looking forward to your reply!

DOG,

Your question is stupid.You will not acknowledge that our MEC was doing what they were elected to do. It has absolutely nothing to do with getting us jobs. Talk about extortion. We are now members of the Delta family, and they refuse to acknoledge that fact. They do not want to work with us period, until now that they needed something.

We have to be in a defensive mode. Look at the US Air wholly owned. They tried for years to work with mainline, and what did it get them? Delta pilots would of already tried some thing lke a j4j extortion if they thought they could get away with it.

They simply want to get JC and company out of office in hopes of them being replaced with a passive group that will let them walk all over them. Our mgt. did not like them either, and why? Because they would not roll over. I think it is absolutely great that we have an MEC that puts our pilot group first.

Our MEC went to the meeting with the Comair pilots interest at hand, as they should of, and the Delta Mec went to the meeting with the Delta pilots interest at hand, as they should of.

It was an ambush by the Deltra mec, period. They announced weeks ahead of time that they were going to do it, unlike there meeting with the ASA MEC. They knew our MEC would do there job, and insist that scope be talked about. It was political. They were and still are attempting to drive a wedge between our MEC and the pilots. It aint gonna work. Virtually every Comair pilot I talk to has the attitude that the Delta MEC was acting out of bad faith and they are essentially full of shi%$.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Freight DOG,

I have come to the conclusion that you are simply wanting to argue. I have rebutted everything you have said and you still use the same ol line. One more time, THE COMAIR PILOTS ALREADY VOTED!! THEY VOTED THESE PEOPLE IN OFFICE TO REPRESENT THEM!!!!

As far as my teaching, I would most likely quit if I had to deal with bull headed idiots like you all the time.

IT WAS NOT ABOUT PREFF HIREING!!! IT WAS A POLITICAL MOVE!!!

 

[Caveman]

1. The Comair MEC DID NOT refuse preferential hiring for DAL furloughees. All DAL and ALPA furloughees are welcome.

2. The Comair MEC DOES NOT have any control over Comair management's policy of requiring furloughees to resign their seniority. It is NOT our MEC's policy, it is MANAGEMENT'S policy.

All this crap about our MEC refusing to hire DAL furloughees is pure political BS. It simply isn't the truth. The Comair MEC and now all Comair pilots are being vilified for something they can't control just so that the DAL MEC can cover its' a$$. The DAL MEC can't get DAL/Comair management to change the seniority resignation policy so they redirect their failure and try to blame it on the Comair pilots.

 

[Freight Dog]

Freight DOG,

I have rebutted everything you have said and you still use the same ol line. <snip the b.s.>

<SNIP the b.s.>

<SNIP>I had to deal with bull headed idiots like you all the time.

IT WAS NOT ABOUT PREFF HIREING!!! IT WAS A POLITICAL MOVE!!!

Nice rebuttal.

Caveman, when you say that DAL MEC had a hard time to press Delta/Comair management to hire furloughees, you didn't mention ASA. Are they not another Delta's WO?

 

[skyslug]

ASA and Comair...both wholey owned...2 seperate managements which is why there are 2 seperate policies. Being a Wholey owned doesn't mean we have the same policies. It would be nice, it would make sense, but it just isn't so at this time. I suspect that's Delta's doing (management).

 

[General Lee]

Caveman,

Ok, so you think this is all a conspiracy by the evil Delta MEC to cover his own a$$ from all of the mistakes he has made. Hmmmm. And, you also believe Saddom Hussein doesn't have any biological weapons too, right? Come on. Your MEC met with our MEC and stated he wanted the end to scope, unlimited 70 seaters, and the right to fly 90 seaters---and then maybe he would think about allowing our guys to fly there with recall rights. Fred Butrell---the leader of DCI---stated in an Atlanta Journal Constitution article that he was happy that ASA would allow Delta pilots to go there with recall rights because "they were looking for good, qualified pilots---and they were happy to get furloughed Delta pilots." When he was asked why Comair wasn't doing the same he replied, "Well, I guess the Comair MEC has more influence over there with his management." The President of DCI stated that---on the record. Lawson is digging a whole for all of you guys. I can't believe you can't see this. The fact is that the top 100 guys at Comair are too proud to be MD88 FO's someday, even though they would make more than what they are making now. They want things that would lead to the shrinking of mainline (unlimited 70 seaters, and 90 seaters)--and the high paying jobs at mainline. Do you ever want to make more money? It would have been nice to have had preferential hiring, like ASA has now, so you could have a better shot than most at getting one of those HIGH paying jobs. You see, you have to have a certian amount of BIG planes at mainline to gauruntee that you can start earning those big bucks. If we had unlimited 70 seaters, a lot of the 737's or maybe new A318's or 737-600's (or whatever we eventually get) might not be necessary----because we have a flood of cheaper labor flying the 70 seater at a preset lower rate. Management would be jumping up and down, laughing all the way to the bank with huge bonuses, while you and I would never see the higher wages until one year before we retire----into a trailer home on the east side of El Paso. Lawson is not looking out for you as much as he is looking out for himself and his cronies. I just can't see Lawson doing a preflight on an MD88 in MSP at 5AM----and neither can he, which is dangerous for all of you that want to eventualy get on with Delta when everything turns around. And to top all of this off, we still feel like this is a slap in the face after all the checks we wrote for you during your strike. You guys can't even see that we were supporting you during your time of need, and now you can't help our pilots now. None of you can actually admit that. You claim that all our pilots make soooo much money, well guess what? The furloughed people were NOT making the big bucks and most are certainly not now. Thanks for the help.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Bill Mostelar]

QUOTE]Originally posted by AFELLOWAVIATOR
OK Bill, I'll play your game.

[Exactly how would this grand preff. hiring plan work?]

The discussion was about willingness to design a reciprical program (as was the meeting). I'm not going to waste either one of our brain cells discussing theoritical bs, as we are not the crafters of the policy.


[Why is it the Delta MEC refuses to work with our MEC on combatting the whupsaw? The only time we can meet with them is when they need something from us. This is why our MEC felt they needed to bring up our concerns during the meeting. The Delta MEC basically ignores them all other times.]

An opinion based on assumptions. Neither one of us knows what kind of dialogue actually exists. Besides, the DAL MEC is busy working for it's pilots (as you say). What else is really relevant than this topic? Safety? I think they do work together in other projects when needed.


[I do not think a preff. hiring plan was really what your MEC wanted. It was political and meant to get the focus off there short comings. Seemed to work, didn't it? Answer this. Why do you think the Delta MEC felt they had to go public with the planned meeting with our MEC weeks before it happened?] And on the same note, you NEVER heard about a meeting planned with the ASA MEC????? Sounds kinda political? You betcha!]

Listen, you're getting hot headed again. It was public because a resolution was passed to explore the issue. There was no issue for ASA (and subsequent public announcement), because ASA stepped up to the plate from the get-go. They were ready and willing to help in a time of need - plus they as a corporation and MEC saw the benefits ( my previous points). Regardless of who crafted the idea, all supported it - hence the thread we are debating (not details).

No one is threatening anyone. WB simply stated he'd make a public announcement about your unwillingness to cooperate in a mutual pref hiring program. How about that ill attempted PID? How about blindsiding us with that one? Another example of your pilots' humility, brotherhood, and ideas to work together.


Your ideas are just full of emotion, and the reasons you state are egocentric. As I said, you (collectively) are behaving exactly in the way which you condemn. About like a proclaimed pacifist defending he fought because he felt the other party threw the first punch....makes no sense.

I have no more time to debate silly EGO BS. Regardless of the past (PID, Strke, Whipsaw whatever), we had an opportunity of an in-road and for various ego driven reasons, conditional excuses were made.

I am not denying the fact that the DAL MEC is not perfect - far from. But thus far, your only argument is ego driven bull crud - the very behavior you condemn, accuse, and perpetuate. Using "starve em out" strike logic is not the way to make inter-ALPA progress. JC Cory et al may have outgrown their usefullness. Many leaders are good for some missions, few (if any) are good for all.

Train Hard!

B

 

[CMRJetDriver]

Gentlemen! You've had a hell of a day.

Please allow me to throw a couple of cents into this beat to death subject. I'm an ex-Midway pilot hired by Comair last February. I'll type this real slow for the benefit of everyone. Comair didn't require me to resign any seniority number with Midway. Even though Midway sent them the paperwork saying I was a furloughed pilot with recall rights. Every Midway pilot here has been sent recall letters in the past few weeks. So even if some pilots were asked to resign seniority, it appears that the HR Form 101 Resignation of Seniority doesn't make it past the mailroom.

Do Comair pilots want to hire furloughed Delta pilots? Without a doubt yes. When Midway furloughed in 2001 Comair sent a jet to Raleigh and flew up anybody who wanted to come. Maybe the pilot group should petition our MEC to publicly support the idea. But the real question is what is preferential hiring? It should mean that Comair's training department calls Delta in Atlanta and says we need 20 pilots to start training on Monday. Send 'em on up to CVG. Then when all the DAL pilots are back in the big iron we get treated the same way. If you're just talking about prefential hiring consideration at the interview it really doesn't mean a thing. You'll just be one of the lucky 200 who make it to the interview out of the 12,000 apps on file and you might get some consideration because our MECs got together and had a group hug. If that's the case DAL pilots will apply to Comair just like we have to and if they're one of the 200 who get interviews out of the 12,000 apps we have on file they might get some consideration as well.

It is amazing to me the rumblings of a few folks on here give the appearance that DAL, ASA and Comair are in total chaos. I have a two leg commute on Delta every week and it is always a pleasant experience. DAL employees ride our aircraft everyday and they have always been great. Everyone knows that these decisions are being made in Atlanta and one group is not to be blamed for another's misfortunes. You cannot blame, however, the different groups of employees trying to look out for one another. I fully expect my MEC to represent our interest as Comair pilots and I know the DAL MEC is trying to take care of their pilots. I just don't see the bitterness that is being expressed here in some of these posts.

Since I'm still on probation here I've just kinda been neutral on the RJDC. I will say that ALPA does have some serious issues that need to be resolved. As bad as some folks think they have it here, most of our slots at Midway are not available because they are giving them to furloughed USAirways pilots. That's right, ALPA pilots who never even worked for Midway are getting the positions at the expense of fellow furloughed ALPA members. So if you don't think ALPA needs some fine tuning, well we'll just have to agree to disagree. I for one am keeping the Comair job.

We now welcome Northwest and Continental, DALs latest code share partners, and one thing is for sure. Until brand flying means anything in Atlanta all of the employee groups will have to mind the store.

 

[darling pretty]

I find it very interesting that none of you responded to the US Airways Express pilots who has far more experience with "preferential hiring" than any of us.

I suppose no one will respond to ex-Midway guys who see their jobs going to US Airway pilots.

CMRJetDriver- I think the reason you never had to resign your seniority number is that no one ever believed Midway would survive, yet alone recall their pilots.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

GENERAL LEE,

Read your post and tell me about the threats again...

They not only threatened to "go public", as if that was not shameful and devisive enough, but he also threatened to attempt a take over of ALL of our aircraft.


Your take on demands our MEC made are also a lie, but you never let that bother you before, did it? They wanted to DISCUSS these areas, and you know why??? BECAUSE THAT IS THE JOB OF AN MEC...To seek resolutions to problems that the pilot group they represent face...

Restrictions on our jobs IS a huge problem we face. What is so rediculous, is the restrictions are coming from fellow union members within the same company...


Our ex Midway pilots know all too well how ALPA can screw the small jet pilots. Midway is up and running again, but instead of the furloughed Midway pilots being recalled, only half will be recalled because ALPA has negotiated half of their jobs away to who? Other ALPA pilots.

So you see, we have to be on guard all the time, and your mec knows our mec will work for us at all times.

Read your take on ASA again, you spun that one out of control...plaeeeze...

The ASA mec had absolutely nothing to do with that decision, and you know it.

For the life of me, I can't understand why you have to get on this board and lie and misrepresent the facts all the time. I would assume it is because you feel a need to cover up the shameful and unethical behavior of you mec, or it is simply that you are a liar, and liars tend to do what? Lie.

Please try to get the facts straight next time.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Oh yes, Fred!!! Sounds like he is extremely happy with the present situatiion. Sounds kinda like a wedge, does it not? The wedge created by having three pilot groupd on the same property.

Fred and company do not like our mec much, do they? I wonder why? Does 750,000.000 dollars ring a bell????

They do not like our mec for the same reasons your mec does not like them. They refuse to roll over and allow our pilots to be screwed like a lot of other small jet pilots have been by alpa and mgt. That's right, alpa &mgt.

Lets see how much you guys love Fred and company during your next contract talks.

 

[General Lee]

Afellowaviator,

Hmmmm. Restrictions put on you guys. What? The % Cap just went from 36% of our flying to 44%. Wow---that is really restricting you guys. How many upgrades will that allow? A lot. And the ASA MEC could have squelched the idea of Delta furloughs flying at ASA, but he didn't. Fred Butrell, the President of DCI said in the Atlanta Journal Article that your MEC seems "to have more influence at Comair." He said that---so I guess he is wrong too, right? You are the one that is mis-informed. Oh yeah, our MEC is blowing this all up and made it public to save his a$$.
Our MEC is mad that your MEC won't help when we helped you back during your strike. Should he have made it publc? Yes---and he made the ASA deal public too. You received a huge chunk of flying after our Codeshare negotiations, and you still complain. You are the ones who are benefiting off of our downfall, and can't even let guys go to the bottom of your senority list without wanting more from us. And you think we are greedy? You want this, and that, and more of this. Heck, we gave you a lot---and you couldn't even help the guys who have nothing left. And you still wont respond to the generosity we gave during your strike. It is beyond you to acknowledge that. We didn't put restrictions on you when that happened. We hoped you would win. Now, you might lose twice.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Gen LEE,
Insinuating that we lost our strike?? Is that what I am hearing from you? What A pompous ass you turned out to be. As far as support during the strike, it is custumary to do what you did. It is rare though to have it thrown in ones face continually, as the Delta pilots have been doing.
As far as Fred goes, he is always attempting to drive wedges between the pilot groups in the press. It is his M.O.. He has plenty of reason to dislike our group. We cost them a lot of money. See, it was the first strike EVER on the Delta property. And to top it off, our MEC at one time attemptrd to bring all the pilot groups together, an effort your MEC, in their wisdom, squashed. Fred owes a lot to your MEC. If we had been sucessful, they would not be furloughing ANY pilots right now. And without there ability to furlough pilots, they would have very little leverage. Yes, A REALLY, REALLY WISE MOVE ON YOUR MEC"s part.

Face it Gen.,they screwed up, big time

 

[Otto]

Re: Re: Question for DAL guys

Why punish the Iraqi people, when it's leadership that's to blame?

Those who sit on their hands are part of the problem. Don't align yourselves with the "new lunatic fringe".

Ahh Bill, I'm so glad you brought up this analogy to brilliantly prove my point. We don't specifically TARGET the Iraqi people because they are not the ones we have the grudge with. As a matter of fact, we go out of our way to avoid hitting them because the more they are on our side, the easier it will be to topple the regime we have a disagreement with. Specifically targeting them would only inflame them and prove to them that the Americans are truly the bastards Saddam says they are. In the same way, the Delta proposal to ban all hiring Comair pilots specifically targets and punishes those that are most likely to help the Delta cause at Comair. All you are doing is convincing moderates such as myself that the Delta pilots are truly as unresonable and ludicrous as our MEC says they are.

You see Bill, I was on your side during this thing. I had no problem with pref hiring of Delta guys and I roll my eyes when some Captain I fly with says he should have been merged with DAL by date of hire. I agreed that if they wanted to be at DAL they had plenty of chances to interview in the past. And I HAVE been communicating my disagreement to my MEC. I was never asked to vote on this issue and I have no record of my position so why should I be punished??? When some Delta guy interviewing me decides to give me the ax because he doesn't like "my Comair kind" you might as well be saying you don't like me because I'm black or hispanic or whatever. And after all this you say its MY RESPONSBILITY TO FIX THIS??? What planet are you on?

I may disagree with my MEC but I, and I believe I speak for the other moderates at Comair, when I say we will not be bullied into anything and it's YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to fix this. You're doing a great job of convincing me that the Comair MEC may have done the right thing after all. The ban on CMR pilots is such a knee-jerk overreaction by Delta, it's hilarious. The Comair MEC wanted a little more than pref treatment because the statements about military pilots still being ahead of Comair/ASA proved the pref treatment was really a farce. (I'm military...yeah that's right..Air Force fixed wing, so I can truly see how unfair that was) The Comair MEC said the door was still open to discusion and Delta responds with a ban of all future Comair pilot hiring at DAL. Real classy negotiations there Delta.

I'm beginning to believe it's true, that this is all about the Delta MEC removing some of the heat he was getting from his own pilots and once again placing the blame for all their troubles on the guys flying RJ's. I must admit, it was a great move as it obviously worked...I'm just amazed so many Delta guys were duped into believing it. Why don't you guys realize that instead of being villians, we're your saviors? Let's see...Delta has the least restrictive scope and they're in the best financial shape of any major...US Air/United have the most restrictive and they're in bankruptcy...do you really think this is coincidence? Why don't you just take your furloughs like men...like all those who've been furloughed before you...and drop this RJs are to blame crap. I guess I won't expect a thank you even as our profits continue to subsidize your losses.

I still disagree with many of the guys I fly with at Comair but you've convinced me that many of the Delta pilots believe anything their MEC tells them and they are not capable of thinking on their own. Well anyway, thank you for helping me to make up my mind on this. Good luck with your future scope restrictions and your futile attempts to manipulate the free market, okay Comrade?

 

[General Lee]

Afellowaviator,

The reason I know that is BS is that I flew with the EX-Comair System chief on a leg to Orlando. He left Comair in 1999 and was flying for Delta Express on the 737-200. He told me and the Capt. that Delta offered them atleast Preferential hiring because date of hire was crazy. He brought it to the attention of the senior guys and they said no. The real reason is that they wouldn't want to be MD88 FO's---they NEED to be Capt. I jumped on an ASA RJ with the #1 senority pilot and he said to me that he expected to retire as a Delta 737-800 Capt flying to Central America----and he was 56 years old at the time. That is nuts. Everyone has a chance to try to get an interview. Some people don't want to take a chance for that one year of lower pay--even though it will triple the next year. Some guys don't want to give up weekends. And, there are the guys/girls that took a chance, got an interview somehow, did well enough, and got hired. The EX-Comair System chief in CVG took the chance and he got hired, and went to the bottom as an Express 737-200 FO. That is the way it works. And, by the way, you did lose your strike. I am not making fun of you, but you did. But you fail to realize that we did want you to win. We wanted you to get more pay and a better lifestyle. Why wouldn't we? Don't get paranoid on me. We supported you in your time of need---that is a fact. And I still don't understand why our MEC would want to shame your MEC or only side with ASA? I beleive he asked your MEC about helping our furloughed guys/girls out while you were hiring so much. Your MEC still said no. He said No to helping our people in their time of need. You gain 8% of our total flying and you think we are treating you poorly. Nope.

Otto,

I can see your frustration, which leads me to believe that you can see the total picture. Just like you are frustrated with this, so am I. I have lots of friends that are furloughed that cannot get a job anywhere because they are Delta pilots, and that most employers know that they will leave someday to go back to Delta. So, what options do they have? McDonalds? A lot of them would love to fly for Comair or ASA, and some actually did. But, they cannot even go to the bottom of your list. Our MEC supposedly tried to ask your MEC for some relief, but he gave some major concessions that were impossible--like getting rid of Scope and unlimited 70 seaters and maybe 90 seaters. Well, you might as well get rid of the high paying jobs at Delta if you do that. I guess letting the total flying go from 36% to 44% wasn't good enough for him. I know that you didn't have a say, but it is good that you tried. A lot of us asked our MEC leaders to ask your Comair MEC, and that is why he did. I keep telling guys like Afellowaviator that we had a No Furlough Clause that seemed great, but no one saw 9-11 coming, and that wasn't the MEC's fault. He is doing the best he can to try to help our furloughed pilots get something, and we all are paying for their Cobra payments, which is the least we can do. We are frustrated like you, but the common thing that is left is that 1015 of our people are out on the street, and they cannot go to Comair, but they were allowed at ASA. (All 13 of them---which is better than none)
It all comes down to helping those in need, and like or not we did help you when you needed it. That is our point. Will your MEC change his mind? Probably not. It is too bad the top 100 guys at Comair are ruining it for the bottom 1500. That's what it looks like.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

. And, by the way, you did lose your strike.


OK, Since you are so knowledgable about our strike,.tell me, what was in the first offer. What was our counter. Now. what about the second offer? The other one we voted down. And what was the difference between the first final offer and the second final offer we voted down? And what gains, specifically, did we wind up with? What was the pay scale before we signed the new contract? What is the pay scale now? What did we gain in scheduling of reserves? What did we gain in scheduling over all? What kind of commuter policy did we have before? What do we have now? How do our rigs work now compared to how they use to work?

I would guess you can't answer these questions. I must say, it takes a clueless, pompous ass to make that kind of statement to a group of pilots who walked the line for 89 days. Pilots who were willing to put it all on the line to better the profession. I don't think I like you much. Your an insulting, very small man. At least our pilot group had the balls to walk, unlike yours. You guys were so scared of Bush, it was shameless.My best friend is a Delta pilot. He still has not forgiven those,"spineless cowards", as he calls them, for folding.




Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Afellowaviator,

A small man, eh? Ummm,ok?? Anyways... Well, fact is I don't know much about your "winnings" from your strike. All I remember was that you guys gave up when Delta said they were going to sell off your planes. Hey, I don't blame you for coming back---you had to. And, we all thought you did your best, but they brought you back for less than you initially wanted. That happens. We still supported you--yes we did. And, how do you know that I have never walked the line, or did some info picketing? I flew for a regional too. And, by the way, Bush would never have let us stike in the first place. Look what happened to the AA guys who did a sick out----they were fined something like $50 Million. Do you have that type of cash? Does ALPA? Probably not. Would we liked to have walked if needed? You bet. Could we? Nope. That was the way it was in 2000. And look now, we are the highest paid, even if we give in alittle in concessions, we will still be paid the most. That is the way it is--not trying to be cocky or anything. DALPA helped with that a lot.
I think this topic is getting away from the original topic of Comair not letting Delta furloughed guys on the property. I think I will stop posting because this is getting off base. Good luck with everything.

Bye Bye-----General Lee

 

[P38JLightning]

ATTN: DAL737FO

You said:
"As for P-38 and his labor law suit go for it..."

Please reread the post in question, as well as the preceeding and following posts. I was not advocating any lawsuit, but rather pointing out how insane either lawsuit (the RJDC as well as suing for the so called blacklist) is or would be, and that how they both would be morally indefensibile and legally flawed.

I believe you owe me an apology brother.

 

[RJPilott]

"And what gains, specifically, did we wind up with?"


Lots of "We"s and "gains"in your post there Fellow. I remember it was "We", ACA, that you said held you "back". Are you now saying that you gained so much because of ACA? Or do you feel you lost your contract when talking to ACA pilot yet feel you won when talking to Delta pilots? Which is it? Remember your posts blasting ACA pilots for caving in just "10 short months"? Do you now think you "won" your contract all on your own when you are on the flip side of a debate? Do you still blame ACA for holding you back, i mean, you got all those "gains" in your new contract. Now all of a sudden YOU are responsible for "gains" in pay, scheduling, commuting policy, etc etc? Geee, your coin really flips well. Keep the name calling to a minimum bro. Your professionalism is showing.... too funny... and you train Comair pilots?

(Disclaimer: in no way is this directed towards the Comair pilot group. I have many buddies flying for Comair and I talk with many Comair pilots daily which are very professional and courteous)

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

"And what gains, specifically, did we wind up with?"


Lots of "We"s and "gains"in your post there Fellow. I remember it was "We", ACA, that you said held you "back".




Never said you held us back. I said you did not help in any way by folding after 10 short months. If it we not for your sub standard contract, we possibly would of been on strike a less amount of time. I remember all the grumblings from our pilots every time the ACA+1% WAS THROWN IN OUR FACE. The ACA pilots were even booed at one of our meetings when we were told that mgt. was using your contract as a bases for there offer.






Are you now saying that you gained so much because of ACA? Or do you feel you lost your contract when talking to ACA pilot yet feel you won when talking to Delta pilots? Which is it?





No one is a winner when you are forced out on strike. The emotional and financial strain are tremendous.




Remember your posts blasting ACA pilots for caving in just "10 short months"? Do you now think you "won" your contract all on your own when you are on the flip side of a debate? Do you still blame ACA for holding you back, i mean, you got all those "gains" in your new contract.


Yes, we got quite a few gains, and over all we are generally happy. Remember, in negotiations, you shoot for the moon and get what you can. The fact still remains that because you guys rolled over so easily, we had to remain on strike longer to acheive those gains.The first and second offer we voted down were a mirror image of your contract, plus 1%.



Now all of a sudden YOU are responsible for "gains" in pay, scheduling, commuting policy, etc etc?


Whats your point? We fought hard for those things. You can name call all you want, but those are my opinions, like it or not.
QUOTE]

 

[RJPilott]

Never said you held us back. I said you did not help in any way by folding after 10 short months. If it we not for YOUR sub standard contract, WE possibly would of been on strike a less amount of time.





QUOTE]

LOL... you are too much....

If you had waited to help me over the fence, i could have gotten over that fence. But you never "held me back" even though you didnt help and im still on the same side of the fence without your help. Im not dumb, im just stupid.....

Why didnt you stay on strike longer to to break the mold and go for broke? Like i said in our last round of debates. Can we blame Comair if we only get Comair+1% on our next contract since you guys gave up after only 89 days? I mean if you're gonna strike, do it right.. right? Pleeeeeeease......


again, not directed towards the Comair pilot group.

Ok, im done with you Fellow.. for now. But i will be watching your numerous contradictions along the way when im bored at home. Its kinda fun...

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Demeaning the Comair pilot group will not score you any points. Your vulger and unprofessional. It kills me to hear people like you attacking our pilot group and offering your version of how long we should of been on strike. I will take it with a grain of salt and consider the source.

You better not burn too many bridges. The way it looks, UAL is shopping you guys around. Like I said before when some one was asking about which company would be more secure, ACA or Comair, you guys may be in some big trouble over there if United replaces you, like they have threatened.


And as I said before, I never said you held us back, you just caused us to be on strike longer because we had to fight your pathetic 10 month contract. Cheers and good luck with that United thing.