CS Pay

[Kuma]

I dealt with all that as a regional pilot.

I overnighted in Detroit.

:laugh:

HAHAHA I forgot about Detroit. Lets just say that military pilots (and also regional pilots with overnights in Detroit) have paid in other ways...

 

[netjetwife]

B19- I don't think that you have the first idea of what military pilots "pay" for their training. .... The military pilot, on the other hand has earned his experience in the regions of the world that many would never choose to live. ... He has moved his family across the country or across the globe so that he can best support our government, and ultimately our way of life.

This post is not calling into question any sacrifices that civilian pilot-want-to-be's may have made; simply, it is a counter to your statement that military pilots have not paid for their experience or time.

If you are this uneducated about the experiences and sacrifices of the average military pilot, I definitely question your credibility with respect to unions.

Kuma

SHACK! A great post, Kuma, with the ring of truth. Thanks for your service to our country. B19, does have credibility problems-- as a number of posters have pointed out. Regards, NJW

 

[netjetwife]

....By going to CMH to do such things as represent pilots, assist with development of Training Programs, assist with implementation of ASAP, and for that matter, assist with a litany of programs that make the Company much more profitable, those volunteers effectively take a 15% pay loss. B19 falsely claims that those pilots are only serving the Union and he implies they're cheating the Company out of flying time. Nothing could be farther from the truth. NJA likes having a Steward always on duty in CMH to answer questions for 1108 and to help keep the working relationship on the right track. The Company asks Union volunteers to come to CMH for meetings and to work on joint projects. They rely heavily on some committee Chairmen and leaders for their input. Flight Pay Loss as the stipend is called, allows union volunteers to break even. That's the idea. From my understanding of the situation, all of the volunteers lose rather than gain monetarily. True for my husband, especially if you assign a value to the countless hours he has spent working at home on his days "off". You won't find that on your usual research source Wikipedia. You have to do real research. Cave, quite a few of us have been trying to explain how 1108 works. B19 doesn't want to hear it because it washes away the FUD he is wallowing in.

Your personal attacks on NJW, ....clearly a red herring. Another SHACK! In fact if you really did your research, you would know that the IBT1108 leadership played a significant role in the mechanics bargaining. That would be pilots helping maintainers. If you did your research you would also know that the relationship between IBT1108 and the Flight Attendant Union is strong and that the leadership of the Union has played a significant role in getting them a better contract. That would be pilots helping flight attendants. I know overall how good things are between the Union and other employee groups, but I didn't think about those pre-IBB examples. Thanks for giving credit where's it's due. NJA was very pleased with the 2007 CBA ...That makes it a Win-Win. Excellent point! I know that is not in your very limited vernacular but yes it is possible for both to win in negotiations. When the quarterly BH results come out soon, I would expect, based on the research that I have done to see another record quarter for NJA and BH. Wonderful! Congratulations to every employee at NJA for the great team work! You won't find that on Wikipedia either so go do some real research. Better yet stop spreading FUD and encourage managers to start motivating their workers instead of driving them away. Newsflash Fudspinners: Carrots work better than sticks.

It always cracks me up when you blame the Union for the fact that NJW's husband was furloughed from American Airlines. While his desperation can be amusing, I think B19's constant yapping from barking up the wrong tree is redundantly rude. Reality is AA management screwed the workers (all of them at AA). Why buy TWA? Stupid! AA management gave false hopes to the people of St Louis only to pull the rug out from under them. ...How many people were hired at AA on false promises, quit their previous jobs, packed up and moved to their AA hub, only to have AMR management screw the Company and steal from the employees. Absolutely! I'm so glad my husband just shared a crash pad instead of moving our family to DAL. He came home thoroughly disgusted--at management. ... Ever heard of Don Carty? He got the NJW boot from AMR and it was well deserved after stealing huge quantities of money in bonuses all the while asking for pay cuts from all employees. And laying off many like my husband. Executives often get huge bonuses for slashing the work force! Talk about robbing Peter to pay Paul! Those bonuses could have kept a lot of pilots employed. Corporate greed compels workers to unionize for protection. The FLOPS are a classic example of why Options pilots turned to 1108. It was not APA that screwed AA it was AMR management. It is quite clear how poor AMR management really was. There was an AMR Manager that got hired at NJA and she too got the NJW boot for performance. The NJ pilots saw it as a positive sign that NJA was serious about keeping morale high. She lacked the cooperative spirit upper management was nurturing. ... It is clear that in the debate battle with NJW you always lose (It's hard to argue with the truth) so why bother? How do I know, I have done my research to know that personal attack is clear indicator of debate failure. That pattern has been followed so much that I can validate the research. It's very predictable behavior from Union Busters. It does make for entertaining reading though. NJ pilots have PMed me from the road and passed messages thru my husband saying the same thing. I'm happy to oblige you guys How does it feel to get her black boot up your backside?

Hey, Cave, you're quite entertaining yourself! And you did a great job setting the record straight. If B19 still insists on standing in the square banging his drum.... FUD...FUD..FUD.. he will look just like the Village Idiot some of the posters have identified him as. I think I'll switch to red boots for a BEWARE OF FUD campaign. Seriously, thanks for supporting my right to comment on current industry events that affect my life and for defending my privilege of sharing the family perspective in this online community.
Best Regards,
Netjetwife

 

[fischman]

I dealt with all that as a regional pilot.

I overnighted in Detroit.

:laugh:

Holy crap man!!! Too funny!!!

:laugh:

 

[B19 Flyer]

Hey, Cave, you're quite entertaining yourself! And you did a great job setting the record straight. If B19 still insists on standing in the square banging his drum.... FUD...FUD..FUD.. he will look just like the Village Idiot some of the posters have identified him as. I think I'll switch to red boots for a BEWARE OF FUD campaign. Seriously, thanks for supporting my right to comment on current industry events that affect my life and for defending my privilege of sharing the family perspective in this online community.
Best Regards,
Netjetwife

There is no record set straight.

You have clearly disrespected all of the industry's rank and file employees by stating that they didn’t invest properly in their careers. In your opinion, if they had, they would obviously be pilots and with entitlement to all the money too. Total disregard and disrespect for employees that chose a different career path.

You have clearly stated that FLOPS pilots must “WIN” a contract, which is clearly different than “NEGOTIATE” a contract. In your mind, it’s a win-lose scenario, rather than a fairness situation.

You have clearly confused about the word “volunteer” and pay, and if the union didn’t exist, would your husband still “volunteer” his time with NJ management to help improve the carrier?

You spit out your pro-union propaganda with complete disregard for the other aviation employees that sacrifice once a union forces itself onto a property.

The is not a single word of “Fear”, “Uncertainty” or “Doubt” in this post, all it does is highlight the disrespect that one specific pilot’s wife has of her husband’s coworkers and the efforts that they have placed in their careers.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19-

I don't think that you have the first idea of what military pilots "pay" for their training. While a student pilot in a United States' school undergoes his training, he is still living the comfortable life afforded by the United States. He may not be rich, but cell phones, fast food, air conditioning, beds with mattresses, public facilities and other creature comforts are common place.

The military pilot, on the other hand has earned his experience in the regions of the world that many would never choose to live. In these regions, he is dealing with gun fire, warfare, genocide and other purely disgusting aspects of the human existence. He is living without running water, air conditioning, sanitation, the internet, living structures that actually have walls/floors, or many of the other intangibles that US citizens consider standard. He has moved his family across the country or across the globe so that he can best support our government, and ultimately our way of life.

This post is not calling into question any sacrifices that civilian pilot-want-to-be's may have made; simply, it is a counter to your statement that military pilots have not paid for their experience or time.

If you are this uneducated about the experiences and sacrifices of the average military pilot, I definitely question your credibility with respect to unions.

Kuma

Just so you know where my statement came from, here is the direct quote from NJW that stirred up "investment" debate"

"Another good analogy, GF. All those rank and file frac workers...personally, I prefer CA1900's term-- support folks...were free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment. "

That would not offend you if you made a different choice of a career? People make different choices, and my direct observation is that if her husband had to dig into his own pocket to learn to fly like many of us did, would he have made the same choice? She is a non-pilot posting on the coat-tails of her husband, whom I don't know but respect simply based on his military background.

But for her to make that statement, is highly disrespectful of the rank file industry employees who made different career choices, but for which, not a single airplane would fly.

 

[fischman]

That would not offend you if you made a different choice of a career? People make different choices, and my direct observation is that if her husband had to dig into his own pocket to learn to fly like many of us did, would he have made the same choice? She is a non-pilot posting on the coat-tails of her husband, whom I don't know but respect simply based on his military background.

But for her to make that statement, is highly disrespectful of the rank file industry employees who made different career choices, but for which, not a single airplane would fly.

That is seriously offensive. How dare you belittle what a United States Soldier did for his country!?!

Shame on you. I didn't think that even YOU could sink that low. You owe him and EVERY other U.S. Soldier an apology for that one.

 

[B19 Flyer]

That is seriously offensive. How dare you belittle what a United States Soldier did for his country!?!

Shame on you. I didn't think that even YOU could sink that low. You owe him and EVERY other U.S. Soldier an apology for that one.

That's not what I said, and you know it. I need not say more.

My direct quote is, and I will stand by it:

She is a non-pilot posting on the coat-tails of her husband, whom I don't know but respect simply based on his military background.

 

[theskyking]

B19,

What in her post is so disrespectful? Let's take the quote that you have taken and tried to twist it out of it's context.

"Another good analogy, GF. All those rank and file frac workers...personally, I prefer CA1900's term-- support folks...were free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment. "

"...rank and file workers..." - pretty obviously refers to non management employees.

"...free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment." - which part of this do you have trouble with. They were certainly free to make the choice to become pilots and either didn't or are in the process. If they did pursue that track, there most certainly would have been an investment. This investment could have been monetary, or through a military commitment.

You are worse than a politician. You take a single talking point out of a whole eloquent thought and try to twist it to meet your agenda. Well, if you can't tell, nobody here is fooled. In fact, I rather enjoy watching a coat tail riding, non-pilot handle your asinine posts with such ease and tact. Keep up the good work.

 

[fischman]

That's not what I said, and you know it. I need not say more.

My direct quote is, and I will stand by it:

She is a non-pilot posting on the coat-tails of her husband, whom I don't know but respect simply based on his military background.

Perhaps you need a refresher of what you said? Well here it is.

People make different choices, and my direct observation is that if her husband had to dig into his own pocket to learn to fly like many of us did, would he have made the same choice?

How many of you feel like B19 feels like our military guys are freeloading to get their ratings? Am I the only one upset by these comments???

Don't tell me that is not what you said! THESE ARE YOUR OWN WORDS.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Perhaps you need a refresher of what you said? Well here it is.



How many of you feel like B19 feels like our military guys are freeloading to get their ratings? Am I the only one upset by these comments???

Don't tell me that is not what you said! THESE ARE YOUR OWN WORDS.

You ain't got the nuts to post the exact quote the way that it was written, because you know that she's wrong!

Here it is, one last time:

People make different choices, and my direct observation is that if her husband had to dig into his own pocket to learn to fly like many of us did, would he have made the same choice? She is a non-pilot posting on the coat-tails of her husband, whom I don't know but respect simply based on his military background.

 

[B19 Flyer]

B19,

What in her post is so disrespectful? Let's take the quote that you have taken and tried to twist it out of it's context.

"Another good analogy, GF. All those rank and file frac workers...personally, I prefer CA1900's term-- support folks...were free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment. "

"...rank and file workers..." - pretty obviously refers to non management employees.

"...free to be pilots if they had chosen to make that investment." - which part of this do you have trouble with. They were certainly free to make the choice to become pilots and either didn't or are in the process. If they did pursue that track, there most certainly would have been an investment. This investment could have been monetary, or through a military commitment.

You are worse than a politician. You take a single talking point out of a whole eloquent thought and try to twist it to meet your agenda. Well, if you can't tell, nobody here is fooled. In fact, I rather enjoy watching a coat tail riding, non-pilot handle your asinine posts with such ease and tact. Keep up the good work.

Because the original post CLEARLY stated that rank and file employees were negatively affected by the CBA.

I understand that you are not a brain surgeon because you chose not to make that investment, but if the only group covered by the CBA is pilots, then it's pretty obvious that rank and file is ANYBODY NOT COVERED BY A CBA.

It's clear she has a low opinion on those that either chose or was forced on to a different career path.

 

[fischman]

You ain't got the nuts to post the exact quote the way that it was written, because you know that she's wrong!

What are you talking about??? I cut and pasted your EXACT words when I quoted you! There is a bit of reality you aren't able to grasp.

You are the one who is wrong. Not NJW.


Again.

 

[gunfyter]

You know, I had thought B19 was a paid union-Buster...

But don't those firms usually hire more intelligent people?

Note to the management at Ford and Harrison:

... Please bring back FamilyGuy. At least he knew what he was talking about.

 

[Hawkered]

Where did Family Guy go?!

 

[theskyking]

Couple of things interesting about B19's arguments.

It's amazing how much time is spent trying to prove that NJW and her arguments are irrelevant. Multiple remarks about how she is a coat tail rider and has no business remarking about our industry. If she is so irrelevant, why so much energy in attacking what she has to say. Either she is relevant to the conversation, or she isn't. If she is, then you have to take her word at face value and not twist them to meet an agenda.

Another argument has to do with the distribution of pay. B19 said that in order for the pilots of 1108 to receive a raise, it had to come at someone else's expense. I think you would be hard pressed to find any workers at NJ that received a pay cut to fund our salaries. Let's take this argument to it's logical conclusion. I guess that means that B19 would be willing to forgo any raises or bonuses offered him because there very probably is someone else at his company that deserves a raise. I'm kind of doubting he has ever made that offer.

I think if anyone one's irrelevance has been proven over and over, it's B19.

 

[theskyking]

Because the original post CLEARLY stated that rank and file employees were negatively affected by the CBA.

I understand that you are not a brain surgeon because you chose not to make that investment, but if the only group covered by the CBA is pilots, then it's pretty obvious that rank and file is ANYBODY NOT COVERED BY A CBA.

It's clear she has a low opinion on those that either chose or was forced on to a different career path.

Still looking for evidence of any negative statement by NJW towards our support staff. Her statements simply point out that people have choices.

Just like your statement towards me and that I am not a brain surgeon. Not sure of your intent, but from your previous posts and demeanor, I take it that you are making a jab at my intellect. Well, just so you know, I attended a private university on a scholarship and ended up with a BS in molecular biology and chemistry. While there, I worked in a genetics lab for two years doing research on life expectancy and the effect of antioxidant producing genes. So, I take this pre med education, and guess what. I made a choice. I decided to go a different direction and pursued a passion of mine and went and worked with animals for 7 years. I was basically a laborer making below average pay because I made a choice.

Then, you know what, I made another choice. I pursued another passion of mine and started flying. Doing this set me back years financially. But I made the choice.

That's all her post was about. Choices. We make them and hopefully things work out. The thing is that there are always people who choose not to be happy with how their choices panned out. Not much we can do about that. But if someone wants to attain what we as a pilot group has, all they have to do is make the choice.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Still looking for evidence of any negative statement by NJW towards our support staff. Her statements simply point out that people have choices.

Just like your statement towards me and that I am not a brain surgeon. Not sure of your intent, but from your previous posts and demeanor, I take it that you are making a jab at my intellect. Well, just so you know, I attended a private university on a scholarship and ended up with a BS in molecular biology and chemistry. While there, I worked in a genetics lab for two years doing research on life expectancy and the effect of antioxidant producing genes. So, I take this pre med education, and guess what. I made a choice. I decided to go a different direction and pursued a passion of mine and went and worked with animals for 7 years. I was basically a laborer making below average pay because I made a choice.

Then, you know what, I made another choice. I pursued another passion of mine and started flying. Doing this set me back years financially. But I made the choice.

That's all her post was about. Choices. We make them and hopefully things work out. The thing is that there are always people who choose not to be happy with how their choices panned out. Not much we can do about that. But if someone wants to attain what we as a pilot group has, all they have to do is make the choice.

No, you are wrong. Her post was specific.

It's clear she has a low opinion on those that either chose or was forced on to a different career path.

 

[theskyking]

You keep saying she was specific, but as of yet you haven't produced any proof. I read these posts, right around #96 or so, and see nothing of the sort. I guess it depends on the agenda you are pushing as to how you choose to interpret them.

I think the most irritating thing about you is that an intelligent discourse is impossible. You refuse to acknowledge facts that are plain as day. Let's go over a few of them.

1)The work that 1108 did at NJ has produced an industry leading pay scale that is sending positive ripples throughout the industry. We are happy to see our non union comrades receive some of the same benifits. But the fact is, their pay would not be where it is if it weren't for the precedent set at NJ.

2)The benefit package at NJ is industry leading. The interpretation of the regs by our union and management provides the safest environment in the industry to work.

3)Netjets is the dominant force in the industry with a huge lead in market share. Profits are increasing every year in spite of the overpaid pilots.

Without having access to payroll's records, I think it is safe to assume that these financial benifits are being felt throughout the company. If there is anything our management has learned in the last few years, it's the value of a well motivated work force.

We all know there have been abuses by unions in the past. But to avoid any kind of organization because abuses have occurred at one time or another is asinine. No one would belong to any social organization (church, politics, fraternities, etc...) if that were your take on life.

So, I suggest you let 1108 plow ahead with this cooperative relationship that's been developed with our company leaders. If NJ falls on it's face due to the greedy pilots, then you can be the first in line to say "I told you so". But until then, do us a favor and SFU.

 

[BengalsFan]

will you all please stop argueing and wasting this thread?