Crappy Pay Offered At Nja

[Sarka]

Personally I like the rumor that Goldman Sacks wants to buy us (NJA)for $3 billion. From what I hear from an inside source management should be scared.

I heard from a reliable source that all of the corrupt and inept schedulers that practice vindictive scheduling are pooling all the kick-back money in their paypal accounts that they got as gifts and favors from the pilots on the "A" list so they can buy the company.

Pilot's should be scared.


(Sorry, I'm just tired of this whole situation.)

 

[Ultra Grump]

Why are you relying on salary.com (source for Monster.com salary data) to research pilot wages when more comprehensive and accurate data can be found on airlinepilotpay.com?

To be honest, I wasn't using it to research pilot data (notice the preface of that particular post). I was using it to research police, firemen, and teachers. And apparently it is erroneous, on the low side, judging by some of the starting salaries I found. I just thought I'd see what it had to say about pilot pay, and thought I'd pass it on to see how you'd spin it.

I also used your source, and found your information to be erroneous. Even with the latest offer from the company, the other fractionals are better-paid. I don't use the airline data, because it has no bearing on what we do. You are quick to throw that out there (twice), but refuse to consider NBAA wages as a comparison for what we do. Why is that?

Hey Grump...on further reflection it occured to me that one of your main points is that the pilot group has worked since 1998 without a raise.

If this is accurate, then would it matter when this was written? 4 years ago, 2 years ago, last week... the pay scale hasnt changed....so does it really matter when this was written?

The largest groups are the current year 5 and 6 guys, with over 900 pilots hired in 2000 and 2001. Three years ago, the majority of pilots would have been making less than $50k. Clear now?


To everyone else - I too feel that the police, firemen, and teachers are underpaid for the jobs they do. I did not start this particular comparison, but couldn't let it pass without a rebuttal.

 

[FLYLOW22]

The pilot group has gone Cat 5 on Boisture.

 

[FamilyGuy]

I don't use the airline data, because it has no bearing on what we do. You are quick to throw that out there (twice), but refuse to consider NBAA wages as a comparison for what we do. Why is that?

NBAA wages have as much bearing as airline wages do - very little - for all the reasons previously hashed out on this board. As I've said consistently throughout my posts, the best comparison for NetJets is our competitors - Flight Options, FlexJet, and Citation Shares.



Although you are quick to discount the bearing of airline data, I find it interesting that the airlines demise is cited as one of the primary motivators for making these outlandish wage demands in your own union research. Here's an excerpt from your union website:

Since 9/11 the work-related attitudes of small jet pilots, especially those in their 20s and 30s have evolved. The immediate cause has been the limitations on career progression due to contraction at major carriers. From 1996 though 2001, a key career goal among [then] newly hired pilots small jet pilots was move to larger equipment at a larger carrier. Many viewed their jobs flying small jets as a “stepping stone.” This mitigated the importance of substantial contract gains in their current job. Since 9/11, their focus has changed. Most young small jet pilots no longer expect to be hired at a major carrier – at least not in the foreseeable future. Consequently their both contract expectations and resolve have increased substantially.


​

As I said in another thread, I sympathize with the plight of all pilots in todays economy....its brutal out there. But trying to recreate the airline wage rates that you expected to get later in your career at your current employer simply isnt viable....and the resulting clash with management just magnifies the frustration.

The largest groups are the current year 5 and 6 guys, with over 900 pilots hired in 2000 and 2001. Three years ago, the majority of pilots would have been making less than $50k. Clear now?

Perfectly clear...that was exactly what I wanted to hear.

We all know that the pilot claims of operating the last 4 years without a raise is disingenuous at best. Every pilot out there has continued to receive raises every year as they gained seniority.

Evidently, according to your own union data, those raises have been sufficient to raise the average pilot wage by over $11,000 in just three years.

 

[Ultra Grump]

We all know that the pilot claims of operating the last 4 years without a raise is disingenuous at best. Every pilot out there has continued to receive raises every year as they gained seniority.

Evidently, according to your own union data, those raises have been sufficient to raise the average pilot wage by over $11,000 in just three years.

Cute, but wrong, "for all the reasons previously hashed out on this board."

 

[steel]

NBAA wages have as much bearing as airline wages do - very little - for all the reasons previously hashed out on this board. As I've said consistently throughout my posts, the best comparison for NetJets is our competitors - Flight Options, FlexJet, and Citation Shares.









Although you are quick to discount the bearing of airline data, I find it interesting that the airlines demise is cited as one of the primary motivators for making these outlandish wage demands in your own union research. Here's an excerpt from your union website:

Since 9/11 the work-related attitudes of small jet pilots, especially those in their 20s and 30s have evolved. The immediate cause has been the limitations on career progression due to contraction at major carriers. From 1996 though 2001, a key career goal among [then] newly hired pilots small jet pilots was move to larger equipment at a larger carrier. Many viewed their jobs flying small jets as a “stepping stone.” This mitigated the importance of substantial contract gains in their current job. Since 9/11, their focus has changed. Most young small jet pilots no longer expect to be hired at a major carrier – at least not in the foreseeable future. Consequently their both contract expectations and resolve have increased substantially.








​

As I said in another thread, I sympathize with the plight of all pilots in todays economy....its brutal out there. But trying to recreate the airline wage rates that you expected to get later in your career at your current employer simply isnt viable....and the resulting clash with management just magnifies the frustration.







Perfectly clear...that was exactly what I wanted to hear.

We all know that the pilot claims of operating the last 4 years without a raise is disingenuous at best. Every pilot out there has continued to receive raises every year as they gained seniority.

Evidently, according to your own union data, those raises have been sufficient to raise the average pilot wage by over $11,000 in just three years.

Family Guy, once again, you have no idea what is going on here, do you? And you should, being that you work for a union busting firm. Pitiful. Well, good luck with that.



Do you disagree that if one has to stick it out here for a while that he/she won't want to make the best of it? Do you think making the best of it, asking for a wage commensurate with one's responsibilities, is so bad?



Did you know we asked for wages already paid to pilots here at NetJets with the same benefits, if not better, flying comparable sized aircraft? Why are these wage demands EXORBITANT (thanks by the way) if management already pays the wages asked?



As to the raises....what did an 8 year pilot make in 1999 as opposed to what they make today? If you say the same, then you win the big prize.



As I have said before, rid the company of the union busting firms, rid moisture and shamtulli of their egos and this gets done. But until that happens, I’m satisfied with how things are going. After all, according to you, "I’m getting a raise every year anyway."

 

[Hogprint]

FG posted...again:

As I've said consistently throughout my posts, the best comparison for NetJets is our competitors - Flight Options, FlexJet, and Citation Shares

As we've pointed out consistently throughout our posts, you keep forgetting NJI, EJM and NJE.....

 

[FamilyGuy]

FG posted...again:



As we've pointed out consistently throughout our posts, you keep forgetting NJI, EJM and NJE.....

And you consistently forget to mention the 6-5 schedule at NJI, the larger aircraft, the higher productivity, the more flexible work rules, and the avoided cost of having to deal with the bureaucracy of a union.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Cute, but wrong, "for all the reasons previously hashed out on this board."

Grump - dont skimp on the details now...

Humor me and tell me, in detail, where the logic is wrong -

again, in your own words (and the union's):

• Pilot median pay was under $50,000 three years ago
• Pilot median pay now is $60,984
• Pilot median pay has risen at least $11,000 in three years

So how did median pay increase at least $11,000 in three years if you are not getting raises from the company?

It's also worth mentioning that an $11,000 increase over three years equates to a 22% raise.....which far exceeds inflation over the same time frame. In fact, as was already noted in earlier posts, inflation totaled 9.08% (compounded) over the last 4 years....

 

[FamilyGuy]

Family Guy, once again, you have no idea what is going on here, do you? And you should, being that you work for a union busting firm. Pitiful. Well, good luck with that.

This has already been covered, but you apparently are having trouble comprehending....I dont work for a "union busting firm". If it helps you sleep better at night to tell yourself that, then go ahead. The truth is that I've been here for years, and will be here long after this is resolved.

Do you disagree that if one has to stick it out here for a while that he/she won't want to make the best of it? Do you think making the best of it, asking for a wage commensurate with one's responsibilities, is so bad?

Again - invest some time and read the previous posts before you ask the same questions....I've already covered the topic of people being paid a wage commensurate with their responsibilities. Your union's demands of a 100% wage increase and a $200,000 signing bonus is not in line with that statement.

You want to bitch about the company not giving 'respectable offers', while you and your union are guilty of not making respectable requests. You need to stop aiming for the moon if you want to get a deal done in the next 5 years.

Did you know we asked for wages already paid to pilots here at NetJets with the same benefits, if not better, flying comparable sized aircraft? Why are these wage demands EXORBITANT (thanks by the way) if management already pays the wages asked?

Management has made it clear that if you want higher pay, then you have to give them flexibility elsewhere in the contract. You bitch about the higher pay at NJI, but conveniently overlook the 6-5 schedule, the more favorable work rules, the higher productivity, the larger aircraft, and the avoided cost of having to deal with the bureaucracy of a union.

As to the raises....what did an 8 year pilot make in 1999 as opposed to what they make today? If you say the same, then you win the big prize.

Again, this has been covered multiple times in the past - read the previous posts.

Both sides share an equal blame for there being no agreement right now.

If you were not unionized then you would have received raises every year, just like the people at NJI, NJE, EJM, and the flight center. You asked to be represented collectively, and thats what you have.

If pay is such a critical issue, then why did your union insist on renegotiating every clause in the contract - thereby wasting THREE years?

You could have had a raise last year when the company and union agreed on a tentative agreement, but you voted it down. You also changed leadership and locals....further delaying the process.

Moral of the story - dont bitch about how long its taking, when your side has a lot of control over the process as well.

As I have said before, rid the company of the union busting firms, rid moisture and shamtulli of their egos and this gets done. But until that happens, I’m satisfied with how things are going. After all, according to you, "I’m getting a raise every year anyway."

As I've said before, rid yourself of the union and the embedded EGO's of your 'leaders' and see how things work out. NJI seems to be a very content bunch.

Yes, you are getting a raise every year. That doesnt seem to stop you from falsely advertising to the public that you've been without a raise since 1998.