Court Ruling

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Wow! The Flex pilots really lucked out with Judge Gwinn's recent ruling. The company took the position that the Flex pilots should be "folded-in" to the Options contract under Section 1.5, but the Judge ruled the negotiations were broad enough to be covered under Section 6. So, the company cannot force the Flex pilots onto the Options pay scales like they wanted to do.

 

[doh]

Yes, AND he included the part of Sullivan's testimony in which he states the company didn't agree to VSP. So we know Weiss lied too!

 

[shanes123]

Why are both sides so fast to say they one in court ? I didn't see a big win for this pilot group or the company. And what happened to the contempt charges against the big 4 ? Not a thing as usual? Seriously need a explanation on that This company and pilot group is pathetic

 

[dime line]

Why are both sides so fast to say they one in court ? I didn't see a big win for this pilot group or the company. And what happened to the contempt charges against the big 4 ? Not a thing as usual? Seriously need a explanation on that This company and pilot group is pathetic

The company initiates.....the union reacts, it can never be the other way

 

[shanes123]

I will ask again. The contempt of court charges ? What's the ruling what's the punishment?

 

[cougar12]

I will ask again. The contempt of court charges ? What's the ruling what's the punishment?

The judge answered it. The contempt issue was moot because the union did not want to force the company to go back to pilots the had already taken and received the VSP prior to his ruling even though that is what was suppose to happen. He ruled however, the VSP that was negotiated with the union was an agreement and the company has to sign the agreement. I believe they will have to offer it to the pilot group.
Furthermore he ordered the company to start bargaining in good faith under section 6 (CBA or JCBA) .
Both sides agreed to arbitrate the Flare jet issue since it was scheduled for arbitration a week later so that issue was off the table for contempt.

 

[cougar12]

I will ask again. The contempt of court charges ? What's the ruling what's the punishment?

I know a lot of pilots wanted them punished in court with a fine or jail time. But we want a JCBA more. Plus I think the VSP is going to cost them millions. They can not crew airplanes now, wait till they HAVE to offer the VSP. I heard 70+ people asked for it. They will not be able to hire anyone worth a damn to replace those pilots.

 

[J3guy]

So those that notified the company last year that they wanted the vsp, and do leave in the next month or two for a job that they had secured, would be entitled to the pay out?

 

[shanes123]

So what happens when the company continues the shenanigans and they could very well sign the VSP but not actually offer it. Or offer it to 1 pilot. Bargaining in good faith is subjective they claim they have been bargaining in good faith already. I just don't see a win here. If I am missing something I would love to have someone enlighten me.

 

[cougar12]

So those that notified the company last year that they wanted the vsp, and do leave in the next month or two for a job that they had secured, would be entitled to the pay out?

We will have to wait and see. As S123 says we have to see how the company interprets the ruling and what they do. They could just sign the agreement and not offer it. Unfortunately, this company tends to do things less than straight forward and the union has to fight them in arbitration or the courts. They then use this as evidence of the union trying to disrupt company plans to support the pilots.

My hope for the pilots is the company and the union work together to interpret the ruling and come to an agreement before anything is released.

 

[cougar12]

So what happens when the company continues the shenanigans and they could very well sign the VSP but not actually offer it. Or offer it to 1 pilot. Bargaining in good faith is subjective they claim they have been bargaining in good faith already. I just don't see a win here. If I am missing something I would love to have someone enlighten me.

I tend to agree with you I am just not quite as negative. It was a win. I think more than anything it improves the unions position in the eyes of the arbitrator.

 

[Imissmypilot]

I will ask again. The contempt of court charges ? What's the ruling what's the punishment?

Read the decision very carefully. The judge gives his clear assessment in several areas without an actual ruling, leaving the door open on everything not "herebyed"

Just one is regarding the comtempt. The way I read it the judge found them definitely in contempt but to do anything about it would require the union to agree the settled beneficiaries of the VSP would have to give their money back. The union chose in the intetests of the pilots both former and future in lieu of the sweetness of punishing the executives. But make no mistake - the judge clearly said he would have. I also read the door is left open for him to bring down the hammer if they monkey around.

For instance, if they sign but don't offer... if they don't make the furloghees whole if more tham 25 Options take the VSP will be an interesting future debate.

Uncle's attempted delay cost him many many millions. At some point investors are going to question his judgement. I don't know, maybe the owners who just got a letter are paying attention now. Can you say perfect timing? Now how many Rencavages see the situation the same way a day later?

If Uncle doesn't work hard to settle a CBA now after this ruling and owners paying attention he doesn't deserve to be in charge nor should you want to entrust your future to him no matter how hard you yammer jam it.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Now with arbitrator Fishgold's help, The merged pilot group will get an MCBA,not a JCBA, or an ICBA(like the company wanted). The disparity in pay will have to be explained. If they can pay Red Label pay to some Flex pilots, Why can't they pay them ALL for doing the same work? And for the Options pilots... if they can pay Lear pilots what they do, why can't that pay include Phenom pilots which fly a plane slightly lighter? And now what happens? DF and JW are calling Flex pilots and telling them they will be "folded into the options pay scales". Where did that come from? Once again, scamanagement has it 180 degrees wrong.

 

[V1 Rotate]

And now what happens? DF and JW are calling Flex pilots and telling them they will be "folded into the options pay scales". Where did that come from? Once again, scamanagement has it 180 degrees wrong.

Someone just posted to Yammer worried about this very thing. They're also concerned that if you're not a MIGs, you can't fly a Flexjet aircraft.

 

[doh]

There is a simple solution for that concern...

 

[doh]

Management's lawyer said no one would lose pay or anything else they currently have. And not one single proposal from the union would cost anyone pay. So unless management is lying, no one is getting rolled into the old payscales.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Someone just posted to Yammer worried about this very thing. They're also concerned that if you're not a MIGs, you can't fly a Flexjet aircraft.

Not quite correct. MIGs get to vote. Not a MIG?, you don't get a vote in Union business. As for the contract, what cannot be negotiated will be determined by Arbitrator Fishgold. Not everyone has to pay dues. There are certain people that object, so they have to pay a maintenance fee or make a contribution to charity close to the dues amount. The big thing the company likes is the fact that many of the senior pilots are not MIGs. They enjoy Flexbid and the company wants Flexbid to go away.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Not quite correct. MIGs get to vote. Not a MIG?, you don't get a vote in Union business. As for the contract, what cannot be negotiated will be determined by Arbitrator Fishgold. Not everyone has to pay dues. There are certain people that object, so they have to pay a maintenance fee or make a contribution to charity close to the dues amount. The big thing the company likes is the fact that many of the senior pilots are not MIGs. They enjoy Flexbid and the company wants Flexbid to go away.

I don't think the charity thing is correct but I'm no expert.

It costs money to continue to administrate a contract for such a large pilot group. It is only fair those fees be mitigated, just like health insurance which we contribute to whether we use it regularly or not; at some point the safety net is used. If you don't support it fine pay a maintenance fee but you should have to pay it and not go around the intent with a charity donation.

My guess has always been scamagement is trying to bankrupt the IBT into acquiescence. Why else would they continue to delay, especially when it always ends up costing them so much money?

The yammer jammers spew outrage at the drop of the hat but absolutely no one has outrage for Kenn wasting our dues money on fishing expeditions and immature antics.

On another note, I am looking forward to the day all pilots who have up to this point listened to idiots like pd and fw in not paying. That overdue bill is going to hurt something awful. It's not going to be unaffordable (our dues aren't really high) but the knowledge they've beem gulliable pawns who helped delay their own benefit will be what hurts. Having to write a check for 18 months you thought you were going to get away with is sweet justice. I wonder if Frank will get run out of town tarred and feathered when the rest wake up?

 

[shanes123]

FW is probably one of the biggest idiots of any pilot group I have ever met. The fact that he wasn't tarred n feathered years ago by Flex pilots really says volumes of what the Flex CULTure was like. not really much different then KR CULTure. I suspect thats why there is so little support for the union on the FLEX side

 

[el raton]

FW is probably one of the biggest idiots of any pilot group I have ever met.

Really? He does his job well. He's safe to fly with, he works hard to please the owners... What do you base this on? You're performance?

The fact that he wasn't tarred n feathered years ago by Flex pilots really says volumes of what the Flex CULTure was like.

again, Why would the culture at flexjet require that FW be "tar and feathered" when he doesn't do anything wrong? He does a good job. Honestly, the IBT's culture has a low score because it protects the likes of you. You're a poor pilot. You've demonstrated your lacking ability to use sound judgment. Your character is lacking, you're stupid, you have openly slandered flex pilots in public...the list goes on."tarred and feathered" what a moron!

. not really much different then KR CULTure. I suspect thats why there is so little support for the union on the FLEX side

FW's a good guy. I respect him. I also thank him for serving our country.
You on the other hand...Do all onesky pilots a favor! Go away!

 

[Club ORD FO]

They enjoy Flexbid and the company wants Flexbid to go away.

What's your source for that statement? I was unaware that the company had submitted a scheduling proposal. Also I was told that the company lawyer said everyone should keep what they have.

 

[doh]

Really? He does his job well. He's safe to fly with, he works hard to please the owners... What do you base this on? You're performance? again, Why would the culture at flexjet require that FW be "tar and feathered" when he doesn't do anything wrong? He does a good job. Honestly, the IBT's culture has a low score because it protects the likes of you. You're a poor pilot. You've demonstrated your lacking ability to use sound judgment. Your character is lacking, you're stupid, you have openly slandered flex pilots in public...the list goes on."tarred and feathered" what a moron!
FW's a good guy. I respect him. I also thank him for serving our country.
You on the other hand...Do all onesky pilots a favor! Go away!

Don't turn your back on him. He will gladly shove the knife in and twist it if he thinks he can get ahead by doing so. Upon a time I too respected him...but no more. He is a gutless, cowardly, backstabbing liar. He showed me his true colors.

 

[shanes123]

El Raton your the stupid one and I have played you like the fool that you are from day one..LOL I laugh at you everytime you open your mouth. you and FW are in a race for the DUMBER N DUMBEST AWARD.

 

[Imissmypilot]

What's your source for that statement? I was unaware that the company had submitted a scheduling proposal. Also I was told that the company lawyer said everyone should keep what they have.

Kenn Ricci is on record saying he hates the airline costs ***************ociated with running a fractional and in his opinion 8/6 is the best way to go. As with most things he does not care about budgetary facts. He gets an idea in his head and he childishly pursues it to the tenth degree. He sees that line item $ go to another company and it pisses him off no matter what the bottom line shows.

Look how much this union fight has cost him not only in money but in legal precedent that hurts his fat cat buddies. Kenn does not care about the bottom line. Kenn simply cares about what Kenn cares about with no rationality. Great attitude if you're fighting cancer, bad attitude if you're running a business.

JW is the one who likes Flexbid. And if Kenn Ricci cared about what JW thought or took his advice, we'd be well into a contract by now. No official in this company has the authority to make a major decision without getting his approval.

There is not a damn thing that will happen in this company unless either Kenn Ricci or a federal judge/arbitrator says it so. If you haven't figured that out by now you are wasting your time on anything related to discussing the subject of what will happen with our future. Our only hope of career satisfaction is for that arbritrator to realize he has to over satisfy the pilots to make up for the BS workarounds Kenn will try with the new mcba.

Maybe the union will make a compelling argument for Flexbid to Arbitrator Fishgold. However, with the lack of support from the Flexjet side wanting it, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they concentrated on the line items membership (which is mostly Options) clamoring for and they love their 7/7.

And that is the real downside of lack of enthusiasm for the union at Flex. We have no ear to bend if we have no voice. No membership means no voice.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Really? He does his job well. He's safe to fly with, he works hard to please the owners... What do you base this on? You're performance? again, Why would the culture at flexjet require that FW be "tar and feathered" when he doesn't do anything wrong? He does a good job. Honestly, the IBT's culture has a low score because it protects the likes of you. You're a poor pilot. You've demonstrated your lacking ability to use sound judgment. Your character is lacking, you're stupid, you have openly slandered flex pilots in public...the list goes on."tarred and feathered" what a moron!
FW's a good guy. I respect him. I also thank him for serving our country.
You on the other hand...Do all onesky pilots a favor! Go away!

FW amd a few select others are 100% responsibke for the lack of enthusiasm for the union at Flexjet and 100% responsible for giving poor advice (even advice management is smart enough to stay away from) regarding withholding payment of dues and membership.

As I said above, membership is our only voice right now. The real downside of lack of enthusiasm for the union at Flex is we have no strong voice to express over the desires of the Options pilots who like their way of doing things. When it comes time for them to decide what battles are worth fighting in the arbritration, the only thing leadership via lawyers is going to have to go on is what concerns the overwhleming majority of their membership has to say.

Our Flexjet negotiating team are good guys who got a lot of what we like into those proposals but you did not give them the backing they needed to succeed. It is out of their hands now.

Additionally, FW is also 100% responsible for giving advice that will result in many Flexjet pilots being overdue by 18 months on a bill they will have to pay in July. And for that he should be tarred and feathered.

 

[exagony]

Kenn Ricci is on record saying he hates the airline costs ***************ociated with running a fractional and in his opinion 8/6 is the best way to go. As with most things he does not care about budgetary facts. He gets an idea in his head and he childishly pursues it to the tenth degree. He sees that line item $ go to another company and it pisses him off no matter what the bottom line shows.

Look how much this union fight has cost him not only in money but in legal precedent that hurts his fat cat buddies. Kenn does not care about the bottom line. Kenn simply cares about what Kenn cares about with no rationality. Great attitude if you're fighting cancer, bad attitude if you're running a business.

JW is the one who likes Flexbid. And if Kenn Ricci cared about what JW thought or took his advice, we'd be well into a contract by now. No official in this company has the authority to make a major decision without getting his approval.

There is not a damn thing that will happen in this company unless either Kenn Ricci or a federal judge/arbitrator says it so. If you haven't figured that out by now you are wasting your time on anything related to discussing the subject of what will happen with our future. Our only hope of career satisfaction is for that arbritrator to realize he has to over satisfy the pilots to make up for the BS workarounds Kenn will try with the new mcba.

Maybe the union will make a compelling argument for Flexbid to Arbitrator Fishgold. However, with the lack of support from the Flexjet side wanting it, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they concentrated on the line items membership (which is mostly Options) clamoring for and they love their 7/7.

And that is the real downside of lack of enthusiasm for the union at Flex. We have no ear to bend if we have no voice. No membership means no voice.

When the arbitrator makes his decision, all the Flexjet guys and gals who didn't support the union will all cry its the union's fault for anything lost or not palatable. (it will be the union naysayers and the management's fault for all things lost) Instead you should look in the mirror for who is really to blame, any losses or unpalatable things that the arbitrator comes up with is purely due to your lack of support. The Union fights for you the pilot - the company fights for itself and to extract every ounce of work from you for the lowest possible price to enrich KR and his hacks. Look at Netjets, kicka$$ contract that you would all love to have but don't want to do the work to achieve. They didn't get there because of lack of support of their union. The only reason you Flexjet guys and gals make the money you do is because Bombardier wanted to pay you so that you didn't get a contract similar to Netjets. Many Flexjet pilots just want to let everyone else do the heavy lifting. Pathetic

 

[shanes123]

IMISS and EXAGONY dead on. KR wants a 8/6 it is the most beneficial for the company. amazing the idiots that think KR is looking out for their best interest.

 

[doh]

Round two of arbitration today through Thursday.

 

[dime line]

Round two of arbitration today through Thursday.

So I hear the company didn't meet with the pilots at all this month. Didn't have time

 

[shanes123]

probably trying to keep doors open.. Word in office things aren't good. guess flying a G450 at Phenom 300 rates isn't profitable who would of ever guessed????