Countdown to the CAL/UAL TA -- 45 days to go

[Captain X]

The 747 has traditionally always been the highest paid airplane at UAL up until the BK contract.

But it's not anymore.

The pay issue does not have to be connected to the SLI.

But it is the way it's being handled.

Again that's what the arbitrator is for.

We'll never get to an arbitrator without getting a full compensation proposal both sides agree with on the table.

Each MEC is pretty much dug in. One side is trying to grab more than they currently have and the other is trying to protect what they have. Sound familiar?

 

[eaglesview]

But it's not anymore.



But it is the way it's being handled.



We'll never get to an arbitrator without getting a full compensation proposal both sides agree with on the table.

Each MEC is pretty much dug in. One side is trying to grab more than they currently have and the other is trying to protect what they have. Sound familiar?[/QUOTE]

Just curious, does this mean the CO side will be happy being fenced off the majority of the widebodies since "that's what we (UAL) have."
Arguements like this are futile. Each carrier brings value to the table. Quit taking things so personal. Give the 747's the biggest raise we can get without giving up on money for the other fleets Don't put up any fences and let's move the on. (in case your wondering I feel the same way about the 787/350 or any other aircraft we get.

 

[AWACoff]

Don't put up any fences and let's move the on. (in case your wondering I feel the same way about the 787/350 or any other aircraft we get.

Eagle,

If we don't have any fences, your idea will work. However, that is not going to happen. If you are unsure as to why, ask your merger committee.

The reason I only quoted "half" of your previous post is because I was only responding to that half.



This is almost certain to turn into an East vs West debate. The East (UAL) is going to argue that their low paying wide bodies are the cat's meow. The West (CAL) is going to argue that their gaggle of narrow bodies are the cat's meow. At the end of it, a panel of 3 arbitrators will decide what is right and we can all start a new poop slinging thread of FlightInfo.

 

[eaglesview]

Eagle,

If we don't have any fences, your idea will work. However, that is not going to happen. If you are unsure as to why, ask your merger committee.

The reason I only quoted "half" of your previous post is because I was only responding to that half.



This is almost certain to turn into an East vs West debate. The East (UAL) is going to argue that their low paying wide bodies are the cat's meow. The West (CAL) is going to argue that their gaggle of narrow bodies are the cat's meow. At the end of it, a panel of 3 arbitrators will decide what is right and we can all start a new poop slinging thread of FlightInfo.

Once the arbitrators decide the poop slinging will have to end. If it doesn't then you can say we have allowed ourselves to become "east vs west."

As for UAL saying our widebodies, oh no excuse me, as you say our "low paying wide bodies" are the cats meow and CO saying their gaggle of narrow bodies are the cats meow, That's probably the way it will be. As I have said, UAL ALPA's job is to protect and fight for UAL pilots. CO ALPA has the same responsibility for CO pilots.

 

[AWACoff]

Once the arbitrators decide the poop slinging will have to end. If it doesn't then you can say we have allowed ourselves to become "east vs west."

As for UAL saying our widebodies, oh no excuse me, as you say our "low paying wide bodies" are the cats meow and CO saying their gaggle of narrow bodies are the cats meow, That's probably the way it will be. As I have said, UAL ALPA's job is to protect and fight for UAL pilots. CO ALPA has the same responsibility for CO pilots.

What else would you call a UAL 767 that pays less than a CAL 737...certainly not a "high paying widebody", right? Next you're going to tell us that buying Magnum condoms will make our special purpose bigger.

 

[AWACoff]

[

Just curious, does this mean the CO side will be happy being fenced off the majority of the widebodies since "that's what we (UAL) have."
Arguements like this are futile. Each carrier brings value to the table. Quit taking things so personal. Give the 747's the biggest raise we can get without giving up on money for the other fleets Don't put up any fences and let's move the on. (in case your wondering I feel the same way about the 787/350 or any other aircraft we get.

Tell you what, you can have all of your wide bodies fenced off and CAL will have it's higher pay fenced off. You can sit on your "C" scale wages and fly your big airplanes all over for less than what CAL 737 drivers are making...deal?

Debating with Eaglesview is like debating with a mentally challenged person. I'm out. Enjoy talking to yourself.

 

[eaglesview]

What else would you call a UAL 767 that pays less than a CAL 737...certainly not a "high paying widebody", right? Next you're going to tell us that buying Magnum condoms will make our special purpose bigger.

Personally I guess I would have left the adjective off. I don't get my thrills out of trying to build myself up on an annonymous web site but of that's how you get off, glad I could help.

 

[eaglesview]

Tell you what, you can have all of your wide bodies fenced off and CAL will have it's higher pay fenced off. You can sit on your "C" scale wages and fly your big airplanes all over for less than what CAL 737 drivers are making...deal?

Debating with Eaglesview is like debating with a mentally challenged person. I'm out. Enjoy talking to yourself.

I'm mentally challenged??? You can't get through your skull that the 'WE" is quickly becoming "US." I would think that WE should focus on a contract for all of US, including pay on all fleets. Try to keep up.

 

[SuperFLUF]

The 747 has traditionally always been the highest paid airplane at UAL up until the BK contract. It has a TOG of approx 200,000 LBS more than the 777. (speed/weight formula ring a bell?) The pay issue does not have to be connected to the SLI. Again that's what the arbitrator is for.

Correct, the pay issue does not have to be connected to the SLI.

Just like the 'status and catagory' of furloughed pilots hired by the other airline as covered in the transition agreement, an SLI arbitrator will not change anything that has already been agreed to by both parties.

SO, if both parties were to agree that for the purposes of SLI the 747 is to be considered the same as the 777, then the "seniority grab" is taken care of.
AND if for the purposes of the SLI, it is agreed by both parties that the 747 will NOT be fenced (so that the highest paying aircraft is available to ALL pilots based on seniority), then the "pay discrimination" is taken care of.

This could be easily reconciled with a compromise. If fairness was truly in play, instead of more me, me, me, unethical and selfish posturing. Ethics and morality are a constant value and not conditional to the topic. I take issue with the argument that each side should try to get the best for it's pilot group at the expense of the other pilot group. How about just doing what is right? Of course, human nature being what it is, I am not naive enough to think this will happen, but I won't excuse selfish behavior during this process as "what they should be doing".

Yes, the 747 should pay more than the 777. However, at the time of the merger announcement and corporate closing, it does not. Any attempt to correct this wrong should not be at the expense of either party and should be done in a fair, equitable manner.

 

[densoo]

Correct, the pay issue does not have to be connected to the SLI.

Just like the 'status and catagory' of furloughed pilots hired by the other airline as covered in the transition agreement, an SLI arbitrator will not change anything that has already been agreed to by both parties.

SO, if both parties were to agree that for the purposes of SLI the 747 is to be considered the same as the 777, then the "seniority grab" is taken care of.
AND if for the purposes of the SLI, it is agreed by both parties that the 747 will NOT be fenced (so that the highest paying aircraft is available to ALL pilots based on seniority), then the "pay discrimination" is taken care of.

This could be easily reconciled with a compromise. If fairness was truly in play, instead of more me, me, me, unethical and selfish posturing. Ethics and morality are a constant value and not conditional to the topic. I take issue with the argument that each side should try to get the best for it's pilot group at the expense of the other pilot group. How about just doing what is right? Of course, human nature being what it is, I am not naive enough to think this will happen, but I won't excuse selfish behavior during this process as "what they should be doing".

Yes, the 747 should pay more than the 777. However, at the time of the merger announcement and corporate closing, it does not. Any attempt to correct this wrong should not be at the expense of either party and should be done in a fair, equitable manner.

Excellent post! The only nut to crack is "This could be easily reconciled with a compromise." Therein is the problem.

 

[eaglesview]

Correct, the pay issue does not have to be connected to the SLI.

Just like the 'status and catagory' of furloughed pilots hired by the other airline as covered in the transition agreement, an SLI arbitrator will not change anything that has already been agreed to by both parties.

SO, if both parties were to agree that for the purposes of SLI the 747 is to be considered the same as the 777, then the "seniority grab" is taken care of.
AND if for the purposes of the SLI, it is agreed by both parties that the 747 will NOT be fenced (so that the highest paying aircraft is available to ALL pilots based on seniority), then the "pay discrimination" is taken care of.

This could be easily reconciled with a compromise. If fairness was truly in play, instead of more me, me, me, unethical and selfish posturing. Ethics and morality are a constant value and not conditional to the topic. I take issue with the argument that each side should try to get the best for it's pilot group at the expense of the other pilot group. How about just doing what is right? Of course, human nature being what it is, I am not naive enough to think this will happen, but I won't excuse selfish behavior during this process as "what they should be doing".

Yes, the 747 should pay more than the 777. However, at the time of the merger announcement and corporate closing, it does not. Any attempt to correct this wrong should not be at the expense of either party and should be done in a fair, equitable manner.

I agree in principle with what you are saying. Unfortunatley in our society, not just UA/CO, it is a utopic (spelling?) statement. Ideally we would sit around and hold hands and sing kumbia and pass around the peace pipe. Unfortunatley a nasty thing called reality keeps rearing it's ugly head. To many egos in play here.

As for the 747 I couldn't care less if we fence them or not. I do think they should pay more than the 777. Both sides have their "for the porpose of the SLI" list. The same arguements have been made over and over again. I know this for sure my opinion and most of the opinions here won't mean a thing in the end.

Keep your hands and feet inside the car at all times and enjoy the ride.

 

[Captain X]

Arguements like this are futile. Each carrier brings value to the table. Quit taking things so personal. Give the 747's the biggest raise we can get without giving up on money for the other fleets Don't put up any fences and let's move the on. (in case your wondering I feel the same way about the 787/350 or any other aircraft we get.

Well, I'm not taking things personal. I'm simply explaining the realities of the situation we are confronted with and the reasoning for the hold up. Because as we stand right now, it's not caveated with the "no fences and a flush on the first bid (744 only)" aspect. If it was, I doubt we'd be having this debate right now and would see a comp proposal on the table already.

We're on the same page really. Maybe we're just crossing realities with ideologies. Seems to happen a lot with pilots.

 

[eaglesview]

Well, I'm not taking things personal. I'm simply explaining the realities of the situation we are confronted with and the reasoning for the hold up. Because as we stand right now, it's not caveated with the "no fences and a flush on the first bid (744 only)" aspect. If it was, I doubt we'd be having this debate right now and would see a comp proposal on the table already.

We're on the same page really. Maybe we're just crossing realities with ideologies. Seems to happen a lot with pilots.

Your correct the 747 pay issue has created a problem. I guess my point is I don't think the 747 should pay the same as the 777 and had we not merged our MEC would have taken the same stand they are taking today with respect to the 747 pay. If I put myself in their shoes I can see that they are in a lose lose situation. They can go for the pay raise and raise the accusations that have been brought here on good ole FI, or they can not go for the raise and look weak on a rather basic pay issue. Can't win for losing.

 

[whatitdoing?]

The problem is that the UAL NC is stalling JCBA for a roundabout way to screw the CAL pilots. This has come from our own CALALPA. Maybe not in those words, but it's not hard to figure out. I've talked to people ON OUR OWN NC that say they're growing frustrated at the lack of effort from the UAL NC to resolve issues and move on. Take what you want from it. Working together? Whatever........

 

[eaglesview]

This has come from our own CALALPA. Maybe not in those words, but it's not hard to figure out.

I see. Your opinion ("not in those words") is like mine, counts for nothing. Do you think we don't hear things that get under our skin on the UAL side? Just relax you and I are not going to change the course of things to come.

 

[Mr.B]

The problem is that the UAL NC is stalling JCBA for a roundabout way to screw the CAL pilots. This has come from our own CALALPA. Maybe not in those words, but it's not hard to figure out. I've talked to people ON OUR OWN NC that say they're growing frustrated at the lack of effort from the UAL NC to resolve issues and move on. Take what you want from it. Working together? Whatever........

Waaaah... You want some whine with your cheese? You ain't heard shlt from anybody on the NC with any info. Let em do their jobs and quit your incessant whining!

 

[Flopgut]

Your correct the 747 pay issue has created a problem. I guess my point is I don't think the 747 should pay the same as the 777 and had we not merged our MEC would have taken the same stand they are taking today with respect to the 747 pay. If I put myself in their shoes I can see that they are in a lose lose situation. They can go for the pay raise and raise the accusations that have been brought here on good ole FI, or they can not go for the raise and look weak on a rather basic pay issue. Can't win for losing.

Why didn't UAL ALPA spell out this now-very-crucial issue of raising 747 pay above widebody in the Transition & Process Agreement? That would have been the time to signal this intention and what it might mean later for SLI. CAL ALPA did as much with the 737... Obviously UAL ALPA was pretty desperate and very much interested in seeing the merger locked up and getting GT gone. Let's not mince words guys, this 747 pay deal is a 570 stunt.

So now we can't get compensation done. GT is gone, the merger is set, all parties up to this point have been predictable and well behaved. UAL pilots need to call your reps and tell them to get to an agreement on this. Your going to have to tell Wendy and the rest of the 570s their going to be junior to the guys Lorenzo hired no matter what they try and pull. Tell them that's their penance for doing what they did to FAL. Who, by the way, will now also become their co-workers. Let's get this deal done and we'll all have a good deal.

BTW: Who on this thread is a 570?

 

[eaglesview]

Why didn't UAL ALPA spell out this now-very-crucial issue of raising 747 pay above widebody in the Transition & Process Agreement? That would have been the time to signal this intention and what it might mean later for SLI. CAL ALPA did as much with the 737... Obviously UAL ALPA was pretty desperate and very much interested in seeing the merger locked up and getting GT gone. Let's not mince words guys, this 747 pay deal is a 570 stunt.

So now we can't get compensation done. GT is gone, the merger is set, all parties up to this point have been predictable and well behaved. UAL pilots need to call your reps and tell them to get to an agreement on this. Your going to have to tell Wendy and the rest of the 570s their going to be junior to the guys Lorenzo hired no matter what they try and pull. Tell them that's their penance for doing what they did to FAL. Who, by the way, will now also become their co-workers. Let's get this deal done and we'll all have a good deal.

BTW: Who on this thread is a 570?

I know it's convenient and easy to group folks together but I doubt you could get 570 pilots to agree on anything. I really do not care if the 570 go junior to CO "Lorenzo era loyal company employees." They are old now and will go away anyway. So I'm with you DOH.

 

[Hvy]

I see. Your opinion ("not in those words") is like mine, counts for nothing. Do you think we don't hear things that get under our skin on the UAL side? Just relax you and I are not going to change the course of things to come.

I agree. Relax. Everyone needs to quit thinking "me..me...me." It's "us". "US" Try to remember that. Higher pay on the 747 benefits ALL of us in the long run.

 

[Flopgut]

I know it's convenient and easy to group folks together but I doubt you could get 570 pilots to agree on anything. I really do not care if the 570 go junior to CO "Lorenzo era loyal company employees." They are old now and will go away anyway. So I'm with you DOH.

Uh.... Ok. Let's suppose we agree (and we do, for the most part) Where does that leave us with the 747? The airplane is provisional at best, as a fleet. There aren't that many of them. I doubt we're going to buy any new ones. We could fight tooth and nail for a huge, separate payrate for it (to the detriment of the rest of our aircraft payrates) and mgt will just park the thing! We're better off leaving it with the rest of the widebodies and fighting for a large wage for more airplanes that we know we're going to have in the future. Come on, let's not play dumb. I'll agree in principle with you on DOH if you agree this 747 issue is just about the 570s and is a stunt?