Corporate vs. Commercial

[semperfido]

corporate has been good to me -- no complaints...nothing more to say

 

[Flechas]

Hey Skyline, you need to have a beer, some good BBQ, chill out, and change your attitude. Everyhting you say has a negative side to it. It's people like you that don't make it anywhere, because wherevere they make it, is never good enough. This industry requires a great attitude, hard worlk, and perseverance. I was shut down the first time for all the flying jobs I've had (Only 3), I guess I should've givien up according to you. Maybe you should give up already and do something else so you don't have to endure this hard life.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I printed this list on another thread in "corporate". Hope you don't mind, but I think its appropriate to copy here.

I've done both airline and corporate and I prefer corporate.

So here's a list of the top Fortune 100 (from 2003) to get you started. Revenue is in billions of dollars:

1. Wal-Mart Stores Inc., Bentonville, Ark., 1, $258.681
2. Exxon Mobil Corp., Irving, Texas, 3, $213.199
3. General Motors Corp., Detroit, 2, $195.645
4. Ford Motor Co., Dearborn, Mich., 4, $164.496
5. General Electric Co., Fairfield, Conn., 5, $134.187
6. ChevronTexaco Corp., San Ramon, Calif., 7, $112.937
7. ConocoPhillips, Houston, 12, $99.468
8. Citigroup Inc., New York, 6, $94.713
9. International Business Machines Corp., Armonk, N.Y., 8, $89.131
10. American International Group, Inc., New York, 9, $81.300
11. Hewlett-Packard Co., Palo Alto, Calif., 14, $73.061
12. Verizon Communications Inc., New York, 10, $67.752
13. The Home Depot Inc., Atlanta, 13, $64.816
14. Berkshire Hathaway Inc., Omaha, 28, $63.859
15. Altria Group Inc., New York, 11, $60.704
16. McKesson Corp., San Francisco, 20, $57.129
17. Cardinal Health Inc., Dublin, Ohio, 19, $56.830
18. State Farm Insurance Cos., Bloomington, Ill., 21, $56.065
19. The Kroger Co., Cincinnati, 18, $53.791
20. Fannie Mae, Washington, D.C., 16, $53.767
21. The Boeing Co., Chicago, 15, $50.485
22. AmerisourceBergen Corp., Chesterbrook, Pa., 24, $49.657
23. Target Corp., Minneapolis, 25, $48.163
24. Bank of America Corp., Charlotte, N.C., 23, $48.065
25. Pfizer Inc., New York, 37, $45.950
26. J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., New York, 26, $44.363
27. Time Warner Inc., New York, 29, $43.877
28. The Procter & Gamble Co., Cincinnati, 31, $43.377
29. Costco Wholesale Corp., Issaquah, Wash., 33, $42.546
30. Johnson & Johnson, New Brunswick, N.J., 34, $41.862
31. Dell Inc., Round Rock, Texas, 36, $41.444
32. Sears Roebuck and Co., Hoffman Estates, Ill., 30, $41.124
33. SBC Communications Inc., San Antonio, 27, $40.843
34. Valero Energy Corp, San Antonio, 55, $37.969
35. Marathon Oil Corp., Houston, 52, $37.137
36. MetLife Inc., New York, 38, $36.261
37. Safeway Inc., Pleasanton, Calif., 41, $35.553
38. Albertson's Inc., Boise, 35, $35.436
39. Morgan Stanley, New York, 40, $34.933
40. AT&T, Bedminster, N.J., 22, $34.529
41. Medco Health Solutions, Franklin Lakes, N.J., new to list, $34.265
42. United Parcel Service Inc., Atlanta, 43, $33.485
43. J.C. Penney Co. Inc., Plano, Texas, 42, $32.923
44. The Dow Chemical Co., Midland, Mich., 51, $32.632
45. Walgreen Co., Deerfield, Ill., 45, $32.505
46. Microsoft Corp., Redmond, Wash., 47, $32.187
47. The Allstate Corp., Northbrook, Ill., 44, $32.149
48. Lockheed Martin Corp., Bethesda, Md., 56, $31.844
49. Wells Fargo & Co., San Francisco, 46, $31.800
50. Lowe's Cos. Inc., Mooresville, N.C., 60, $31.263
51. United Technologies Corp., Hartford, Conn., 49, $31.034
52. Archer-Daniels-Midland Co., Decatur, Ill., 71, $30.708
53. Intel Corp., Santa Clara, Calif., 58, $30.141
54. UnitedHealth Group Inc., Minnetonka, Minn., 63, $28.823
55. Northrop Grumman Corp., Los Angeles, 99, $28.686
56. Delphi Corp., Troy, Mich., 53, $28.096
57. Prudential Financial Inc., Newark, N.J., 57, $27.907
58. Merrill Lynch & Co. Inc., New York, 48, $27.745
59. E.I. du Pont de Nemours, Wilmington, Del., 67, $27.730
60. The Walt Disney Co., Burbank, Calif., 61, $27.061
61. Motorola Inc., Schaumburg, Ill., 59, $27.058
62. PepsiCo Inc., Purchase, N.Y., 62, $26.971
63. CVS Corp., Woonsocket, R.I., 68, $26.588
64. Viacom Inc., New York, 66, $26.585
65. Sprint Corp., Overland Park, Kan., 54, $26.202
66. Sysco Corp., Houston, 73, $26.140
67. Kmart Holding Corp., Troy, Mich., 39, $26.032
68. TIAA-CREF, New York, 89, $26.016
69. American Express Co., New York, 69, $25.866
70. New York Life Insurance Co., New York, 65, $25.700
71. International Paper Co., Stamford, Conn., 64, $25.200
72. Tyson Foods Inc., Springdale, Ark., 72, $24.549
73. Wachovia Corp., Charlotte, N.C., 70, $24.474
74. Goldman Sachs Group Inc., New York, 75, $23.623
75. Duke Energy, Charlotte, N.C., 118, $23.483
76. Honeywell International Inc., Morristown, N.J., 78, $23.103
77. Caterpillar Inc., Peoria, Ill., 85, $22.763
78. Best Buy Co. Inc., Richfield, Minn., 91, $22.673
79. Johnson Controls Inc., Milwaukee, 86, $22.646
80. BellSouth Corp., Atlanta, 77, $22.635
81. Ingram Micro Inc., Santa Ana, Calif., 76, $22.613
82. FedEx Corp., Memphis, 83, $22.487
83. Merck & Co. Inc., Whitehouse Station, N.J., 17, $22.486
84. ConAgra Foods Inc. Omaha, 50, $22.053
85. HCA Inc, Nashville, 90, $21.808
86. Alcoa Inc., Pittsburgh, 82, $21.728
87. Electronic Data Systems, Plano, Texas, 80, $21.596
88. Bank One Corp., Chicago, 79, $21.454
89. Comcast Corp., Philadelphia, 157, $21.263
90. Massachusetts Mutual Life Insurance Co., Springfield, Mass., 84, $21.076
91. The Coca-Cola Co., Atlanta, 92, $21.044
92. Bristol-Myers Squibb Co., New York, 98, $20.671
93. WellPoint Health Networks Inc., Thousand Oaks, Calif., 103, $20.360
94. Georgia-Pacific Corp., Atlanta, 74, $20.255
95. Weyerhaeuser Co., Federal Way, Wash., 96, $19.873
96. Abbott Laboratories, Abbott Park, Ill., 100, $19.681
97. AutoNation Inc., Fort Lauderdale, 93, $19.381
98. The Williams Cos. Inc., Tulsa, 196, $19.246
99. Supervalu Inc., Eden Prairie, Minn., 81, $19.160
100. Cisco Systems Inc., San Jose, Calif., 95, $18.878

This list is great, but revenues are useless.....
look at GM/Ford -- huge revenues and the companies are practically in shambles...
look for PROFITS, not revenues!


Oh, and Yes, skyline is completly clueless when it comes to corp aviation!

His attitude is the reason many 121 resumes wind up in the trash at good corp jobs....

whatever...ooppss theres my beeper agin, dammm this 24 hr on call...and I hope we dont sell all the planes tommorrow....better apply at United Airlines, DAL, or AA in case...(haha)

My guess is there has been more airline junk parked in the desert this year alone than corp aircaft sold over the last 10 years combined....

 

[Skyline]

Like Spooky Said

Like Spooky said,

Its all a matter of perspective. My best corporate job had me sitting on 30 minute call out 24/7 18 days on and 4 days off. It was a complete nightmare. Sure I was home a lot but with no life. I couldn't even go to the grocery store without being afraid of having to leave a full cart when the phone rang. I couldn't go on a nice jog or join a softball team. I couldn't leave a 10 mile perimeter of the airport. All I could do was to watch TV and surf the net. I hated it. Others, who had no life anyway, loved it, or at least they are still there. And for my part of the country this employer is one of the better known outfits. They are swamped with resumes from highly experienced pilots, so It doesnt fill me with any hope that there is much better anyplace close at least.

From my experience you have a fantasy job. Good for you. I don't know anyone like that and we didn't get paid anywhere close to NBAA. Usually it is half of what they claim is average. I was just on the phone today with a friend who is a Learjet Captain and he told me that the going top rate at his company was 42K for a Captain and 24K for an FO. He is out over 15 days a month.

I suppose I could pull up stakes and move again to earn double but most of those jobs are located in larger urban areas and I doubt that the increase in pay would be worthwhile. In short I didn't like it at all and I know few who have a much better deal. My hopes in becoming an aviator was to have a better life to be paid a livable wage and to build a rich life full of friends, family and personal growth. During my corporate days I lost money, had a near prison term QOL and was jerked awake at 2:00AM to take drunken business men to Reno. Great fun !! Burnt FOB coffee and 14 days in a Hotel 6 staring at the walls. If you guys like it than good for you. I learned long ago that it is much better to be sitting in the back of a small jet sipping on a T&T then to be the two up front. To this day I cant see a Learjet overhead without triggering the gag reflex.

Skyline

 

[Flechas]

Like Spooky said,

Its all a matter of perspective. My best corporate job had me sitting on 30 minute call out 24/7 18 days on and 4 days off. It was a complete nightmare. Sure I was home a lot but with no life. I couldn't even go to the grocery store without being afraid of having to leave a full cart when the phone rang. I couldn't go on a nice jog or join a softball team. I couldn't leave a 10 mile perimeter of the airport.

I was just on the phone today with a friend who is a Learjet Captain and he told me that the going top rate at his company was 42K for a Captain and 24K for an FO. He is out over 15 days a month.

Skyline

You need to get new friends, seems tome that most of the corporate guys here are happy with their jobs.

 

[Skyline]

You Guys

Live it up. You corporate/charter guys have always had an inferiority complex. Well today is your time in the sun. I am sure that at one time most of you tried hard to get on with a major airline. You don't have to even deny it because I know you will. Many a corporate hangar is filled with airline rejects. Well get out there and crow. The bus drivers have fallen on hard times. For now at least you can dance for us.

Skyline


All in good fun.

 

[semperfido]

Live it up. You corporate/charter guys have always had an inferiority complex. Well today is your time in the sun. I am sure that at one time most of you tried hard to get on with a major airline. You don't have to even deny it because I know you will. Many a corporate hangar is filled with airline rejects. Well get out there and crow. The bus drivers have fallen on hard times. For now at least you can dance for us.

Skyline


All in good fun.

that is some attitude you have there. just a think-you-know-it-all kinda guy i suspect. i doubt your brief stint as a so-called corp pilot gave you a very accurate picture.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Live it up. You corporate/charter guys have always had an inferiority complex. Well today is your time in the sun. I am sure that at one time most of you tried hard to get on with a major airline. You don't have to even deny it because I know you will. Many a corporate hangar is filled with airline rejects. Well get out there and crow. The bus drivers have fallen on hard times. For now at least you can dance for us.

Skyline


All in good fun.

I see all your "corporate" experience is in 500 citations and Learjets.....sounds like garbage charter to me!

No wonder a 737 looks so great.

 

[xdrvr]

Rrrriiiiight and the majors/regionals have never heard of the word "furlough"??!

 

[xdrvr]

Here's my 2cents worth... My first "real" flying job was cargo at the time guys were going to the commuters (which in my opinion, can't figure out from Cargo) but other guys were goin' to Corp or Majors --now honestly for me it was the break --the job offer dropped in my lap type thing... I fly Corp good QOL, pay etc so I can't complain... but if you're hard core about one area or the other, then that's what you go for. There are all gammits (QOL, pay) in EACH area of aviation. I think everybody agrees the magnet for the majors was the retirement program.. that's gone now. You have to plan your retirement on investments... other things. So it just depends on the lifestyle, benies and places you want to go... (FYI my job gives you each month's schedule in advance also... with hard days off.) Some guys like the "prestige" of flying for a major --'cause what's the first question everyone asks when you tell them you're a pilot, "oh who do you fly for?" expecting you to name a major. Some guys don't like the same runs everyday and go Corp because it is a lavish lifestyle. Some guys don't like Corp because you are away from home a week or two at a time. I buddy of mine flies Cargo he has hard set days off, but when he's on he's usually out and back --rarely overnights for more than 2 nts at a time. Hope this doesn't confuse you even more... Good luck!

 

[Skyline]

I know I am not popular

Hey guys,

These are just my opinions and experiences, not the word of God. Believe me I wish that things went better for me during my corporate days. I haven't seen the promised land that you all speak of. I don't know anyone who has been there either. However, I have seen some disgustingly rich Delta and Alaska Airline pilots. Although you would be quick to point out that they are not doing so well these days. I don't want to live in the heart of the big city and I disliked the lack of upgrade assurances that my corporate time give. If a good one were to come along I suppose I would go for it, but I haven't seen anything I would go for yet. I hate sitting in hotel rooms like a sky butler waiting for the little bell to ring.

Skyline

 

[Bankangle]

test..

 

[semperfido]

Hey guys,

These are just my opinions and experiences, not the word of God. Skyline

unfortunately, you have very limited experience

 

[Lead Sled]

I see all your "corporate" experience is in 500 citations and Learjets.....sounds like garbage charter to me!

No wonder a 737 looks so great.

Skyline, I'm with G200...
30 minute call out? 24/7/365?? I've NEVER heard of a Part 91 job that required that. If charter is involved in any way, shape, form, or degree it's a sucky charter job and not corporate. Please don't confuse the two - we don't.

'Sled

 

[banned username 2]

Hey guys,

These are just my opinions and experiences, not the word of God. Believe me I wish that things went better for me during my corporate days. I haven't seen the promised land that you all speak of. I don't know anyone who has been there either. However, I have seen some disgustingly rich Delta and Alaska Airline pilots. Although you would be quick to point out that they are not doing so well these days. I don't want to live in the heart of the big city and I disliked the lack of upgrade assurances that my corporate time give. If a good one were to come along I suppose I would go for it, but I haven't seen anything I would go for yet. I hate sitting in hotel rooms like a sky butler waiting for the little bell to ring.

Skyline

This guy is obviously flame bait... Every post of his has some type of moronic jab... He obviously never held a real Corporate job, that is appearant in his blatant misperceptions of the industry...

Oh, I know some Delta pilots too, the ones that took a 35% paycut and are now being forced to take a additional 19% paycut... That doesn't sound so "disgustingly rich" to me... But then again, you admitted you've never made over $42k a year flying, so I guess makin' $80K at Delta must look pretty good to you...

And your "30 minute call out"??? Even when I flew Charter 10 years ago we had a 2 hour call out... I know a LOT of Corporate pilots, I don't know ANY that have a 30 minute call out, or even a 2 hour call out for that matter...

I think Skyline has Charter and Corporate a tad confused...

Oh and if you think the "Hay Day" of the 90's is going to return for the majors, don't bet your pension on it... Oh wait, you don't have one of those anymore... I guess you have nothing to worry about then...

(Edit: Upon further investigation, it looks like Skyline might be unemployed, this explains his extremely negative attitude: http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=779641#post779641)

 

[Bankangle]

skyline is not all wrong..

Take a poll at TEB sometime. The majority of corp guys are not as fortunate as you all here on this thread. The majority are 24/7 in light to medium corp jets making in most cases the norm 2nd year pay at a 121 carrier.

 

[Bankangle]

The regional jet captains are even making more $ with a better schedule than the majority or Corp guys.

You guys here with the great corp jobs be thankfull but also be truthfull to those looking for info here... you guys are the exception but not the norm

 

[Bankangle]

I must also add.... that the majority of these guys and gals sitting around TEB all day... Have wonderfull attitudes

 

[banned username 2]

skyline is not all wrong..

Take a poll at TEB sometime. The majority of corp guys are not as fortunate as you all here on this thread. The majority are 24/7 in light to medium corp jets making in most cases the norm 2nd year pay at a 121 carrier.

So you walk around TEB asking guys how much they make and how often they work??? And they offer you up their W-2's and Logbooks???

I was born at night, just not last night...

A LOT of guys sitting around TEB are CHARTER guys...

 

[Lead Sled]

skyline is not all wrong..

Take a poll at TEB sometime. The majority of corp guys are not as fortunate as you all here on this thread. The majority are 24/7 in light to medium corp jets making in most cases the norm 2nd year pay at a 121 carrier.

I've spent my fair share of time sitting around the various FBO pilot lounges at TEB. (In fact I'll be out there for a few days next week.) Maany of those guys sitting around complaining are fractional pilots. Again, please don't make the mistake of thinking that they are corporate. They are not. They're getting good experience though, and hopefully they'll be able to parlay it into a good pt 91 job. Right now I know of two openings for qualified and experienced part 91 corporate captains - both starting at well over $100K, perhaps up to $125K. Former 121 guys need not apply.

'Sled

 

[Bankangle]

Right now I know of two openings for qualified and experienced part 91 corporate captains - both starting at well over $100K, perhaps up to $125K. Former 121 guys need not apply.

'Sled

TWO....thats my point. Those jobs are the exception not the norm.

121 guys need not reply... thats pretty arrogant considering the company we are all here with

 

[Bankangle]

Maany of those guys sitting around complaining are fractional pilots. Again, please don't make the mistake of thinking that they are corporate.
'Sled[/quote

That is insulting to another great group of folks. Many a "corp" flight depts. have shares with Fractionals and some all together only fly with the fracs. They fly the same A/C and People... and they to you are below you. I hope you leave your ego at the coffee counter at the FBO.

 

[xdrvr]

skyline is not all wrong..

Take a poll at TEB sometime. The majority of corp guys are not as fortunate as you all here on this thread. The majority are 24/7 in light to medium corp jets making in most cases the norm 2nd year pay at a 121 carrier.

Well first of all TEB is the wrong place to take the poll, to be fair, it's not a neutral place, it's NJ for cryin' out loud... oh ya, was that poll during the winter or summer thunderstorms... but seriously every sector has its lows, it's all in your attitude and if you gripe about something in Corp then you'll gripe about something in the Majors, maybe a reality check is in order. Bottom line here for newbys 'cause you're right, it's not all roses, expect to pay your dues and have a glass half full concept... take advantage of "better opportunities" and be greatful for the experience that your current job gave you, because without you probably wouldn't be moving on to that "better opportunity."

 

[Lead Sled]

TWO....thats my point. Those jobs are the exception not the norm.

121 guys need not reply... thats pretty arrogant considering the company we are all here with

No, that's MY point. Those two jobs are ones that I've heard about without having made the slightest bit of effort to uncover them. They are not the only two unfilled corporate jobs in the country.

As far as 121 guys go. It's not my ego that has created the situation for the current crop of furloughed 121 guys. However, it's been my experience that many 121 guys don't "play well with others" in the "hands on" corporate world. Don't take me the wrong way, there are many good corporate guys who in a former life used to fly 121.

I'm not being condescending to the fract guys either, but just because they happen to be flying a bizjet doesn't mean that they have a corporate job. You know it and they know it. Take a Fortune 500 corporate pilot and see if he'd swap his seat with any fractional pilot. It's good experience but I don't know of too many guys that view Net Jets as a career position.

'Sled

 

[semperfido]

diff strokes fo diff folks....i won't knock your career choice so please don't knock mine. i know plenty of people on all sides who are quite happy with their choices. i also know some that are not. so what...who cares.

 

[Skyline]

Falcon Captain

F C,

Its no secret. I was laid off over two years ago from my last airline job. Since then I have been hired and promptly quit or courted a few local corporate (or junk corporate) jobs. Before the airlines I flew for a collection of corporate, charter and medevac companies. My negative attitude is spawned from almost 20 years as a professional pilot. I however would describe my attitude as realistic. I wish I had an opportunity as good as yours. They just are not that common.

Skyline

 

[Skyline]

Led Sled

Don't feel bad. The airlines don't like corporate guys either. They think that corporate guys don't have a work ethic.

Skyline

 

[CapnVegetto]

I'm with you guys on corporate. Hell, I like 135 better than airlines. I have a crappy bottom of the barrel dues paying 135 job, and I make more money than any RJ copilot and some captains flying a jet half the size, work about 12 to 15 days and 30-50 hours a month, no Red Roach Inns, twice the perdiem I made at the airline, no callout min or max, just 'get there when you can'. If I'm at a store or on the golf course or something like that, I just take longer to get there. Besides, 'get here now' calls come less than once a month on average. They do happen, though. However, it just doesn't bother me. I do what I want, if they call, I get there when I can. My company doesn't expect me to not have a life. Bear in mind, again, I have what most would consider a 'time-builder' 'dues paying' 'crappy' job. And I'm WORLDS happier than I was at my regional. I make more money and work less. What more could you want? Of course if I worked for a 'real' airline and not a regional, I'd be singing a different tune. But in my opinion, a good 91 job is head and shoulders better than any 121 job. Case and point:

Used to fly a LR-35 (Oh God, a dreaded SMALL jet) for a rich guy. It was his personal toy. NO on call. Schedule a month in advance. Good pay. Flew about 20 hours a month. The ONLY reason I'm not still there is that he wanted to move to St. Croix permenently. I didn't want to leave the country. My old CP and I are still friends, and still talk. He lives there, plays golf every day, and tells me he MIGHT fly 10 hours a month. Doesn't have to give face time at the office, he goes in when something with the plane needs doing. Boss won't sell the plane.......he's actually talking something bigger. If the darn job was in the continental US, I'd probably have spent the rest of my career there.

My uncle worked for over 25 years working for a non Fortune 500 company flying a CE-501 single pilot. They paid him well, treated him right, and he never left.

Are there craphole jobs out there, ohhhhh yeah. There sure are. I once met a guy that worked for a 91 owner. 1 hour call out 24/7, 365. He was even expected to be on call on the road. Sit in the hotel and watch the phone. That job lasted a few months max. These jobs are never that bad for that long because 1 of 2 things happens. Owner gets tired of having to pay to train new pilots every few months and sells plane, or figures out that he can't treat people like crap and expect them to stay and wises up. More often than not, though, it's the 1st option.

Charter sucks. Some 91 sucks, but most is MUCH better than any airline job in my book. Hell, believe it or not, there are even good charter jobs out there. Ask pilots at Epps aviation in Atlanta how happy they are......most will answer that they're pretty happy. They'd probably be happier at FalconCapt's job, but who wouldn't??? Shoot, I'd give my left arm just to know where to send a resume for that deal!!

(hint hint)

 

[Dangerkitty]

F C,

Its no secret. I was laid off over two years ago from my last airline job. Since then I have been hired and promptly quit or courted a few local corporate (or junk corporate) jobs. Before the airlines I flew for a collection of corporate, charter and medevac companies. My negative attitude is spawned from almost 20 years as a professional pilot. I however would describe my attitude as realistic. I wish I had an opportunity as good as yours. They just are not that common.

Skyline

You have been a professional pilot for 20 years and you only have 6400 hours total?

Something doesn't quite add up.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Don't feel bad. The airlines don't like corporate guys either. They think that corporate guys don't have a work ethic.

Skyline

Complete and total BS. I have been hired by two major (AA and Delta) airlines and one regional airline (Continental Express). I had three years at AA and a little over three years at COEX.

All three airlines I interviewed with and flew for happily employed former Corporate Pilots.

Skyline, why dont you quit while you are way way behind? It is obvious you have a grudge against aviation in general. You have been called out a few times on inaccurate statements you have made but yet you refuse to address them.

It's quite obvious why you have not been able to find a decent Corporate job. From reading just a few of your posts it is clear to everyone that you are a complete moron. Most high quality Corporate flight departments dont hire morons.