Continental loses captain over colleague's alcohol allegation

[~~~~O~~~~]

Enjoy your lifetime of being an idiot.

It is pretty obvious, you have that one covered!

I am not!
You are to!
am not
are to
not
to
not
to
not
to
not
to
not to not to not to not to
nottonottonottonotto

 

[A Squared]

HA. We don't know too much... A press article?

you're right, we don't know too much, assuming that the article isn't inaccurate, which I realize is a leap of faith, we know that the pilot reported for duty for duty with a BAC over the limit, and the pilot was fired. That seems to me entirely appropriate.

Do-over? Like NWA's Capt. Prouse. He retired on the B747 after flying drunk from FAR to MSP.

Yes, I'm well aware of Prouse's' story. Northwest was amazingly generous to take him back, after he had been fired, after he had been incarcerated in a federal penetentiary, and after he had turned hs life around. Prouse will be the first to say, without hesitation, that he did not deserve the second chance, that it was a gift, and that he absolutely did deserve to be fired and thrown in prison. I think that perhaps it is this attitude that lead to him being given a second chance.

And one doesn't have to choose. You can protect passengers and help co-workers. It doesn't have to be a drive thru version of judge, jury and executioner. Unless one is scripted to think that way....

Yes, I agree, it would be nice if you'd be given the opportunity to call in sick and seek help, nice, but you don't necessarily deserve it. And if you didn't get that courtesy extended to you, and you did get fired, you'd have no-one to blame but yourself.

The co-worker has an absolute, indisputable obligation to see that the pilot did not take the flight. There is no obligation to see that it's done in a manner that the pilot avoids the consequences of his decision. Like I said, it would be the nice thing to do, And I personally woud chose the "ummm, I think you ought to call in sick here buddy" routine, but there is no moral obligation to do so.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

you're right, we don't know too much, assuming that the article isn't inaccurate, which I realize is a leap of faith, we know that the pilot reported for duty for duty with a BAC over the limit, and the pilot was fired. That seems to me entirely appropriate.

That is fair as it is company policy. Do we have to jump and down like howling screech monkey's condeming this guy as we claim professional status. Or am I being presumptious to our professional status?

Yes, I'm well aware of Prouse's' story. Northwest was amazingly generous to take him back, after he had been fired, after he had been incarcerated in a federal penetentiary, and after he had turned hs life around. Prouse will be the first to say, without hesitation, that he did not deserve the second chance, that it was a gift, and that he absolutely did deserve to be fired and thrown in prison. I think that perhaps it is this attitude that lead to him being given a second chance.

So what's wrong with having a guy call in sick, get admitted to a program, comply with the program and continue to work. Getting thru an alcohol program is no easy task, it takes along time and the programers ensure one is not a risk. What is wrong with helping a guy get his life back and continue to take care of his financial. legal, family and personal obligations. Wouldn't you want that for you? Or would you rather be spit out onto the street?

BTW, the other two pilots who flew with Prouse took the tough road. They refused to take responsibility and paid big time. That was thier choice, however, professionals gave them the choice.

Yes, I agree, it would be nice if you'd be given the opportunity to call in sick and seek help, nice, but you don't necessarily deserve it. And if you didn't get that courtesy extended to you, and you did get fired, you'd have no-one to blame but yourself.

but you don't necessarily deserve it.

This is where you cross over. Respectfully, who are you to judge? There is a system in place to handle these situations. I trust the professionals in charge of these programs to treat alcoholics properly. Since I trust them, I don't need to judge. You?

The co-worker has an absolute, indisputable obligation to see that the pilot did not take the flight. There is no obligation to see that it's done in a manner that the pilot avoids the consequences of his decision. Like I said, it would be the nice thing to do, And I personally woud chose the "ummm, I think you ought to call in sick here buddy" routine, but there is no moral obligation to do so.

There is no obligation to see that it's done in a manner that the pilot avoids the consequences of his decision.

I have never argued that the pilot should not avoid the consequences of his actions. I have been discussing win/win. What part of win/win don't you like?

Moral obligation? One has to be of good moral character to be an ATP. Where does morality fit into professionalism? Professionalism means does not have to be policed. So as professionals if we can fix our problems internally without the FAA, company and law enforcement, then why not?

Of course many are hopping on thier keyboards saying if the drunk pilot was professional then he wouldn't have been drunk at work in the first place.

Well, now we are going in circles because even professionals are not perfect. In fact I consider myself an imperfect professional.

:beer:

 

[bizicmo]

Enjoy your lifetime of being an idiot.

Yeah ok

 

[A Squared]

So what's wrong with having a guy call in sick, get admitted to a program, comply with the program and continue to work.

Uhhh, nothing at all, I think I said that I would use this approach, if possible.

What part of win/win don't you like?

And I would ask, what part of "I personally woud chose the "ummm, I think you ought to call in sick here buddy" routine", didn't you understand?

Or didn't you notice that part. The way you are carrying on would suggest that you didn't read that or didn't understand that, hence my directing your attention back to it once again.

[/QUOTE]

I think we agree that the company's response in terminating the pilot was apropriate. It seems that your position is that the pilot, after having reported for work intoixicated is *owed* a chance to not get fired. My position is that the passengers are owed having the intoxicated pilot removed from the flight. That is the only *obligation*, if that is accomplished while giving the pilot the opportunity to address the problem without losing his job, that is admirable, (and again that is the approach I would try) but the pilot is not owed that. Besides, we don't know whether the pilot was offerd that opportunity or not, perhaps he was and he turned down than opportunity.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It seems that your position is that the pilot, after having reported for work intoixicated is *owed* a chance to not get fired.



Besides, we don't know whether the pilot was offerd that opportunity or not, perhaps he was and he turned down than opportunity.

No that is not my position. My position is.... no position. As professionals do we really need to take a stance on this?



Perhaps he was..................

:beer:

 

[siucavflight]

I still stand by my original statement-Flying drunk is bad umm kaay!


And look at it this way, there is one more airline job available.

 

[pipe]

It's a shame that people can't see this stuff for what it is. There are two pilots (or more) for a reason. It's a system designed not only to share workload, but to provide checks and balances on judgment decisions.

If you don't like a guy's choice on where to fly through an area of cells on the radar (or out the window), do you ride along and call the CP afterwards?

If you don't like a guy's judgment about the maintenance status of an airplane do you fly it with him anyway and then call the CP?

If you think the guy flying should be initiating a go-around do you just sit there and then call the CP afterward (if you make it)?

If you think a guy seems too sick to be flying do you make a suggestion that he call in sick or do you put on your surgical mask and fly with him anyway, then call the CP?

I sure hope there are no "professionals" here that answered yes to any of these.

Talking to someone you are working with about what you percieve to be the problem and then offering solutions, alternatives, and options is good risk management and CRM.

Doing otherwise is just being an A$$HOLE. If you think a guy may have had one too many consider handling it as you would any other problem. If your problem solving skills have kept you alive in an airplane they will probably serve you just fine in this scenario as well.

Or you could be an arrogant, sanctimonious, holier than thou a$$hole and just blow the dudes life, career, and family up right there.

Your choice.

PIPE

 

[AC560]

Or you could be an arrogant, sanctimonious, holier than thou a$$hole and just blow the dudes life, career, and family up right there.

As opposed to an arrogant, sanctimonious, holier then thou a$$hole that shows up to work with a BAC above the legal limit jepordizing the aircraft, crew, passengers, and company?

 

[pipe]

As opposed to an arrogant, sanctimonious, holier then thou a$$hole that shows up to work with a BAC above the legal limit jepordizing the aircraft, crew, passengers, and company?

I'll say it again.

If you're flying with an arrogant, sanctimonious, holier than thou a$$hole who is about to do something stupid do you:

a) ride along, hope to live, and call the CP to tattle?

or

b) identify the problem, offer constructive solutions, and try to fix it at the lowest level?

One of these options certainly seems more professional to my simple little mind. From the tone of your response, I'm afraid you might actually choose option "a".

PIPE

BTW AC560, when you do finally fly an airplane that requires two pilots, please feel free to comment further.

 

[AC560]

BTW AC560, when you do finally fly an airplane that requires two pilots, please feel free to comment further.

Sometimes I wear foggles so the plane needs a second pilot, mostly though I am just so good I don't need an assistant like yourself to raise and lower the gear for me.

There are a variety of ways to confront a situation, but in no situation can I see the person who has to confront it is ever worse then person causing it. This is particularly true in the case of showing up to fly bombed. And if you think flying drunk is a problem with the airlines only you need to spend a little more time in the GA world where people openly brag about flying with a can between their legs.

 

[pipe]

Sometimes I wear foggles so the plane needs a second pilot, mostly though I am just so good I don't need an assistant like yourself to raise and lower the gear for me.

There are a variety of ways to confront a situation, but in no situation can I see the person who has to confront it is ever worse then person causing it. This is particularly true in the case of showing up to fly bombed. And if you think flying drunk is a problem with the airlines only you need to spend a little more time in the GA world where people openly brag about flying with a can between their legs.

I've spent lots of time in the GA world. I have also dealt with this particular issue several times.

Once CFI to CFI, twice in the military, and once in 121 service. Each time everyone has kept their jobs, no one has gotten hurt, and none of the "cast of characters" has ever had any further problem. One thing I can say with certainty - it never involved any management supervision (Chief Pilot or otherwise) and in every case I was thanked by the involved party. You would be amazed how much can be accomplished peer to peer and by unions on this issue.

PIPE

 

[Caveman]

"The co-worker has an absolute, indisputable obligation to see that the pilot did not take the flight. There is no obligation to see that it's done in a manner that the pilot avoids the consequences of his decision. Like I said, it would be the nice thing to do, And I personally woud chose the "ummm, I think you ought to call in sick here buddy" routine, but there is no moral obligation to do so."

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner. I agree completely.

If I ever have to confront someone the other person's real problem is whether or not I kick his ass for putting me in that awkward situation. You show up not fit to work and I'm supposed to tap-dance around it and 'suggest' you call in sick. Fukc you! Why are you putting me in this predicament? Your second chance was when you were looking in the mirror and knew you were unfit, but you decided to come in anyway. When it gets to the point I get involved the conversation is going to be very one sided. I talk, you listen and comply without hesitation. If you even inhale before replying with an affirmative I'm calling the cops and the CP. I'm going to call pro standards irregardless.

Somebody that knowingly and willingly risks my job and my family's livelihood (not to mention the stupendous safety issues) doesn't get a second chance from me that day. After treatment and rehab I'll welcome you back, but not today pal.

 

[avbug]

BTW AC560, when you do finally fly an airplane that requires two pilots, please feel free to comment further.

What was that about "arrogant, sanctimonious, holier than thou a$$hole," again?

And if you think flying drunk is a problem with the airlines only you need to spend a little more time in the GA world where people openly brag about flying with a can between their legs.

I've spent decades in the GA world, and have never seen or known anyone to fly intoxicated. I can assure you, however, that were someone to brag to me about doing so, I'd see them investigated and violated fast enough that they'd never spill a drop in a cockpit again. Without remorse.

As a former aviation safety counselor, that's not even an area I'd bother to counsel the person on before passing their information to an inspector for investigation and enforcement. If a pilot is stupid enough to fly intoxicated, then the pilot has already taken this idiotic action knowingly. The matter is beyond counseling. If the pilot brags about it, as far as I am concerned, then he or she should have his or her certificates immediately revoked...and chances are that's what's going to happen.

Those who wear stupidity as their badge of honor are indeed astounding in their resolve toward self-incrimination and ultimately destruction.

If I see a man in a SIDA without ID, I may confront and ask, or at a minimum, report. If I see a pilot I believe intoxicated, I may confront, or I may report. The circumstance will dictate, as will the attitude and intent of the person involved. Rest assured, however, that the situation will not be let go; it will get handled by whatever means are necessary, bar nothing. If that means someone loses their career, then so be it; their decision, not mine.

I don't care how many pilots are sitting in that cockpit at a given time. It makes no difference. Brotherhood? Please! He's not my brother, I'm not his keeper. But the life I save may be his, a passengers life, the life of an innocent surface dweller below, or my own. That alone, is reason enough.

Do you need more?

 

[siucavflight]

What was that about "arrogant, sanctimonious, holier than thou a$$hole," again?



I've spent decades in the GA world, and have never seen or known anyone to fly intoxicated. I can assure you, however, that were someone to brag to me about doing so, I'd see them investigated and violated fast enough that they'd never spill a drop in a cockpit again. Without remorse.

Working the ramp I have seen it one time, guy got out of a Cardnial (C-177) ran for the bathroom at the FBO, only guy on board three empty beer bottles on the seat next to him. My first thing was to call the FSDO, who called the state police, there in five minutes, arrested the guy who proceded to blow a .14, and I testified in court against him, and I would do it again in a second, I dont want to share my airspace with anyone like this.

 

[AC560]

Each time everyone has kept their jobs, no one has gotten hurt, and none of the "cast of characters" has ever had any further problem.

That is the problem, people get away with something once they are often times more likely to try and get away with it again. While there may not have been any further problem that you are aware of they could very well have shown up drunk with some one else who either didn't notice or ignored it. If they lost their wings it wouldn't be a problem in the future, ever.

I've spent decades in the GA world, and have never seen or known anyone to fly intoxicated.

If anything I think GA pilots are lot worse when it comes to breaking the rules in a variety of ways then professional pilots. People flying without medicals, revoked certificates, no BFR, no annual on their aircraft, have a few drinks at one airport then fly back home, etc. My opinion though is the same as yours zero tolerance.

Whether it is a 747 Captain 30yrs flying the line with 30,000hrs or a 200hr newly minted private pilot when people break these types of rules it puts me at risk when I fly and makes me as a pilot become associated with their practices. Case in point Jay Leno's joke last night of the near miss at ORD that the pilot's were close enough to see which brand of beer they were drinking. The industry/hobby has enough problems without people doing their best to make it even worse.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner. I agree completely.

A winner of what?

If I ever have to confront someone the other person's real problem is whether or not I kick his ass for putting me in that awkward situation. You show up not fit to work and I'm supposed to tap-dance around it and 'suggest' you call in sick. Fukc you!

Profanity is the ultimate indicator of professionalism. Nice school boy whinning about having your own on-the-job difficulties and expectations. Are you going to kick his ass on school grounds? Maybe by the jungle gym?

Too bad you can't fly by yourself then everything would go perfect.

You don't suggest he call in sick. You give him the choice of calling in sick or you'll do it for him. Either way he doesn't operate the jet. Get it?

Why are you putting me in this predicament? Your second chance was when you were looking in the mirror and knew you were unfit, but you decided to come in anyway.

Pipe guy already said it. We get to back each other up. Help each other. I'd think you would've learned that in the Marines.

The crying and whinning is amazing. Show up to work and do your job. If that means dealing with an alcoholic, then so be it. Why all the emotion? Tell the guy to call in sick. If he doesn't, call in sick for him. Wait for scheduling to put a new pilot on the trip or cancel it. Continue on with your day. What is so difficult for you?

When it gets to the point I get involved the conversation is going to be very one sided. I talk, you listen and comply without hesitation. If you even inhale before replying with an affirmative I'm calling the cops and the CP. I'm going to call pro standards irregardless.

Grow up big boy. This comment reeks of fear and a lack of understanding of what to really do in this kind of situation.

Calling the cops? Are you serious. So that means when your fellow pilots don't like your behavior they can call the cops too? Same with the CP? I'm sure you are a model employee so nothing will come of it but how times do you want to explain yourself to the cops or CP? Finally..if you call the CP then PSC is out. It is one or the other. But according to your post you really don't know what to do or how to handle this. Your plan of action is to:

Kick his ass
Call the cops
Call the Chief Pilot
Call PSC (a waste of time since you called the CP)


I suggest you call your HIMS Chairman. There is a good chance he is a recovering alcoholic and understands these situations very well. Once you get educated you'll feel better about yourself and the ability to deal with situations like this. You can address your fears head on all while not using violence and making so many calls.

Somebody that knowingly and willingly risks my job and my family's livelihood (not to mention the stupendous safety issues) doesn't get a second chance from me that day. After treatment and rehab I'll welcome you back, but not today pal.

I realize empathy isn't part of destroying your enemy in the Marines, but guess what, this isn't the Marines.

Alcoholism is considered a medical condition. It is not a social selection mechanism to eliminate undesirables! If you go down that path then prepare to be weeded out because you might not fit the next level of criteria!

Your reaction and attitude would be similiar to reading your fellow pilot the riot act for having a heart attack in flight. How dare he eat a poor diet, not exercise and get check ups. Why would he:

knowingly and willingly risks my job and my family's livelihood

You people are real gems. Fine examples of the Air Line Pilot Profession. You have the choice to handle this situation with grace and integrity yet you choose the path of fear.

 

[SSDD]

I've been in aviation for over 30 years, and I have to say that some of the people on this board are pretty scary. You would fly with a guy who smells like alcohol(you don't know the actual level) and hope everything goes alright? You are every bit as irresponsible as he is!

I'd have "the talk", but if he refuses to take himself off the trip...then he's on his own...

Some people here seem to have a screwed up sense of loyalty and responsability.

Professionalism is not about covering up, its also about making the hard choices!!!!!!!!

Rez, what would you do if you talked to him and he still refused to call in sick?

BTW, he could have been turned in by a number of people...

The CS agent at the gate...

The mechanic that brought the logbook up...

The fueler that brought the fuel slip...

On of the F/A's...

The F/O...

 

[FN FAL]

BTW, he could have been turned in by a number of people...

The CS agent at the gate...

The mechanic that brought the logbook up...

The fueler that brought the fuel slip...

On of the F/A's...

The F/O...

Yea, but the article clearly stated it was a colleague, not a protégé.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

The term "colleague" as used in the article may actually refer to anyone whom the Pilot works with closely. This can include captains, FO's, FA's, dispatchers or anyone else closely involved with his flight. Discretion (by use of colleague) may have been used by the airline in order to preserve the persons identity.