Continental Airlines Chooses Not to Merge

[Flopgut]

Just a theory.

Just why would CAL expend so much time and energy and money to put together a deal with United and then pull out when we thought the deal was closed?

Perhaps it sounds reminiscent of Delta's initial refusal to consider a merger with Northwest. When Northwest first made ovations to consolidate with DAL, Delta said very publicly that they would be better off as stand lone carrier. But as we all know a deal was finally struck...even a deal with those pesky pilots.

Now it seems Continental is just trying to sweeten the deal for themselves. They bait the hook and Glenn, being the stupid trout that he is, bit down hard. Then it comes time to sign on the dotted line and CAL changes their mind. Hmmm...

Let's not forget where Continental came from. This is a very familiar Lorenzo tactic. That is to say; Strike a great deal, get ready to shake hands and then change your mind because you can always ask for more. Continental is not going to let us into their pants unless we promise to marry them and buy them a big house. That means we give up a lot. And since Glenn can't play poker without showing his hand to everyone at the table, CAL thinks we have more to give. They are certianly not wrong about this.

The panic now showing among our employee groups is just what Continental wants to see. We are desperate and they think that our only other choice is USAir. Which of course, would be like marrying Brittany Spears. We get scared. Investors get scared and the bankers get pissed. Collective pressure is now put on Glenn and our union to soften our position to get a Continental deal done...since USAir will mean a quick (but painful) death.

Glenn has shown his cards and his rather well compensated ass to everyone. Continental is just going to prove that it is all too easy to fleece a moron. In fact, they can probably be excused for disbelieving their own luck.

I'm going to call BS here. This is no different than when CAL was between NWA and DAL 10 years ago. DAL had that eliteist-a$$monkey-Harvard-tool who thought he was better than anyone else running an airline and Bethune gave him the biggest corporate bitchslap of his career by going with NWA (at the last second)!! Equally elietist Tilton just got the same and it's got nothing to do with UAL employeses. Nobody at my airline is walking around with "screwUAL" pins on.

Bethune gave you guys a hard time back in the day, but compare that to what every UAL employee carried on like back in Denver??? CAL has been entirely civil.

 

[SuperFLUF]

Man Pokehole, you sure are clueless. Guess that's what happens when you choose to stay stuck at the commuters

I think the one is the result of the other.

Clueless = unable to progress in career

 

[SuperFLUF]

......That the 'merger' didn't occur is startling and would lead one to think that the strategic marketing alliance with AMR is in the offing.

I would like someone's insight on the AMR/CAL alliance; specifically how this helps either party very much. It would seem to me the two carriers overlap each other a great deal, and neither helps with the pacific shortcomings of both carriers......

The recurring theme from CAL management is that we need to be a first tier player in one of the three global alliances in order to retain our corporate business.

I think the talks with "AMR" are more about One World and the reach of BA than what we get out of it from AMR. Certainly, we can't reject UAL and expect to become a player in the Star Alliance.

As far as Pacific (read: China) expansion, the 787 deliveries are intended for this. Perhaps, management has concluded that we are better off with the risk of being marginalized waiting for these aircraft to come than the risks of merging with UAL.

I hope this is good news for the UAL pilots. Hopefully the street will clamor for Tilton's (& crew) ouster as his dismal 1Q results are most likely the main reason for this "dream team" merger to fall through.

For those who think this announcement is just posturing and negotiating tactics with UAL, I highly doubt it. If CAL management hadn't been proclaiming their preference to go it alone ever since Gordo left, maybe I'd believe it. But the truth is they do want to remain independent if possible and UAL's 1Q results and current state of affairs are just the thing management needed to convince the boys on the board that merging with UAL is not the way to go right now.

 

[CALDC9]

I'm going to call BS here. This is no different than when CAL was between NWA and DAL 10 years ago. DAL had that eliteist-a$$monkey-Harvard-tool who thought he was better than anyone else running an airline and Bethune gave him the biggest corporate bitchslap of his career by going with NWA (at the last second)!! Equally elietist Tilton just got the same and it's got nothing to do with UAL employeses. Nobody at my airline is walking around with "screwUAL" pins on.

Bethune gave you guys a hard time back in the day, but compare that to what every UAL employee carried on like back in Denver??? CAL has been entirely civil.

Lets go back to that Super Bowl Sunday evening. It was not Gordo who killed the deal. Bob Wilson IACP president then made the call to the board, told them the pilots were shutting CAL down Monday morning(only time in CAL history all pilots were together) if they went with the DAL deal. Gordo was out of a job if DAL bought us. Publicly he claimed he saved the employees(all BS, I was there!)
CAL pilots ate a lot of ******************** sandwiches in the late 80's & early 90's.
:erm:

 

[Correcting]

Even if/when Tilton decides to leave UAL, he's just going to end up running and ruining someone else's airline. He may even end up at CAL before it's all over.

 

[Flopgut]

Point taken. I was there too, I am sure that what IACP did was part of the equation, or in fact the tipping point. I think it's entirely appropriate as well to point out to these UAL types that CAL did not do this recent deal just to screw UAL employees. We aren't running around as an employee group with stickers, pins and all other manner of schwag calling for the end their airline.

 

[Continental]

Larry K. says that CAL isn't going to merge, so I bet that is because CAL is going to be acquired by American. Ouch.

At least with United the CAL pilots had a chance to get a good deal out of it. With American, I think they will probably gobble CAL up.

But maybe that's just me. LOL

I think you should be more worried about your own job. Because on June 28, 2008, a notice to withdraw 51 of the existing 205 Covered Aircraft from the current CPA, beginning in December 2009. Also CAL will not extend the term of the current CPA and it will expire on December 31, 2010, all aircraft would be removed from the current CPA by the end of 2012.

That is if you don't get bought by Skywest...
Whats that they say about Karma?

 

[AWACoff]

Don't forget about the United T.O.R.Q.U.E. campaign which was directed at Continental. I wonder how many of UAL pilots from those days are still around. I bet a lot of them are. This must sting worse than an ol' Dutch Rub.

 

[Flopgut]

Don't forget about the United T.O.R.Q.U.E. campaign which was directed at Continental. I wonder how many of UAL pilots from those days are still around. I bet a lot of them are. This must sting worse than an ol' Dutch Rub.

We've got plenty of old Frontier pilots here at CAL and you better believe they remember what UAL ALPA did to them!

What UAL pilots need to do is take a page from what CALDC9 is talking about. Go directly to the BOD in some way and tell them to get rid of Tilton. The BOD has a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders, not Tilton. UAL stock drops again? UAL pilots need to get busy!

I'm kind of surprised at the UAL ALPA reaction here. CAL/UAL wasn't that great a deal, was it? I mean, merger + 1 nanno second and UAL ALPA would have wanted to fence CAL pilots off most of the widebodies!! One year after the merger the story would have been: UAL saved CAL. So why be fussy now? I don't know what's going to happen, Kellner may have screwed up, but I think there's a lesson here: Pilot groups need to be up front with each other and take the good with the bad. (hint: USAir DAL)

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Lets go back to that Super Bowl Sunday evening. It was not Gordo who killed the deal. Bob Wilson IACP president then made the call to the board, told them the pilots were shutting CAL down Monday morning(only time in CAL history all pilots were together) if they went with the DAL deal. Gordo was out of a job if DAL bought us. Publicly he claimed he saved the employees(all BS, I was there!)
CAL pilots ate a lot of ******************** sandwiches in the late 80's & early 90's.
:erm:

Len Nickoli was the IACP President not Bob Wilson.

 

[Andy]

Don't forget about the United T.O.R.Q.U.E. campaign which was directed at Continental. I wonder how many of UAL pilots from those days are still around. I bet a lot of them are. This must sting worse than an ol' Dutch Rub.

~1500.

And American pilots were recruiting new customers from United at O'Hare in the 03/04 timeframe.

 

[CALDC9]

Len Nickoli was the IACP President not Bob Wilson.

Good memory! Bob Wilson #2, then Nickoli #3. Story remains the same. Now for the big test, can you recall all the CAL presidents?

 

[T-Bags]

We've got plenty of old Frontier pilots here at CAL and you better believe they remember what UAL ALPA did to them!

What UAL pilots need to do is take a page from what CALDC9 is talking about. Go directly to the BOD in some way and tell them to get rid of Tilton. The BOD has a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders, not Tilton. UAL stock drops again? UAL pilots need to get busy!

I'm kind of surprised at the UAL ALPA reaction here. CAL/UAL wasn't that great a deal, was it? I mean, merger + 1 nanno second and UAL ALPA would have wanted to fence CAL pilots off most of the widebodies!! One year after the merger the story would have been: UAL saved CAL. So why be fussy now? I don't know what's going to happen, Kellner may have screwed up, but I think there's a lesson here: Pilot groups need to be up front with each other and take the good with the bad. (hint: USAir DAL)

Honestly, the CAL hookup would have been the best deal for BOTH groups. It's all about perspective though. I've never understood the battered wife syndrome at CAL. Had a DAL deal gone through, you'd probably had much higher total earnings over the last 15 years. Instead you "went it alone" as NWA's b1tch with really slow hiring in the the 90's and a pathetic contract. Take away the last 4 years and frankly, you would have done better just about anywhere else.

As to the FRNT deal, there are two sides to the story, and the UAL ALPA story is MUCH different. IIRC, the deal breaker was that UAL ALPA demanded that the FRNT guys be on the UAL seniority list, being paid UAL payrates, while the company wanted to operate them separately at much lower rates.

Why do I think the CAL would would have been good? You'd have seen 747-400s flying out of EWR to the pacific, and widebodies to most of the international destinations. I really don't think you would have seen the fences you feared. Heck, 777's and 747's have the same payrate. I think the UAL attitude on seniority is to do it once and do it right and after that, you fly what you can hold.

Now for the kicker, and this rumor was out BEFORE you got your letter...It has been reported that one of the big reasons the merger didn't happen is that CAL was unwilling to pay the pilots the new contract rates and equity the deal would have required..."stand by your man...."

 

[pkober]

LOL. This is funny. We may be toast. Maybe not. Either way is fine with me. But this sounds like 03 all over again. Many assume CAL doesn't want to merge because of UALs books. It could be that they didn't want to merge under the terms presented. But hey, UAL might suck but you CAL guys don't walk around acting like you're SWA, FDX, and UPS rolled into one now. The whole industry sucks. That would include your place too. Good luck and congrats on having management that has wanted to run an airline for the past few.

Mr. Happy !!!

 

[Ex737Driver]

Honestly, the CAL hookup would have been the best deal for BOTH groups. It's all about perspective though. I've never understood the battered wife syndrome at CAL. Had a DAL deal gone through, you'd probably had much higher total earnings over the last 15 years. Instead you "went it alone" as NWA's b1tch with really slow hiring in the the 90's and a pathetic contract. Take away the last 4 years and frankly, you would have done better just about anywhere else.

As to the FRNT deal, there are two sides to the story, and the UAL ALPA story is MUCH different. IIRC, the deal breaker was that UAL ALPA demanded that the FRNT guys be on the UAL seniority list, being paid UAL payrates, while the company wanted to operate them separately at much lower rates.

Why do I think the CAL would would have been good? You'd have seen 747-400s flying out of EWR to the pacific, and widebodies to most of the international destinations. I really don't think you would have seen the fences you feared. Heck, 777's and 747's have the same payrate. I think the UAL attitude on seniority is to do it once and do it right and after that, you fly what you can hold.

Now for the kicker, and this rumor was out BEFORE you got your letter...It has been reported that one of the big reasons the merger didn't happen is that CAL was unwilling to pay the pilots the new contract rates and equity the deal would have required..."stand by your man...."

Were you just born a complete fcuking moron or did you just kinda grow into it?

 

[Pocono Pilot]

Now for the kicker, and this rumor was out BEFORE you got your letter...It has been reported that one of the big reasons the merger didn't happen is that CAL was unwilling to pay the pilots the new contract rates and equity the deal would have required..."stand by your man...."

You got that right. CAL pilots are the most underpaid in the industry besides Mesa maybe. That's why I turned them down. I couldn't lower myself to working for no insurance for a year either.

I have to say that I really do think that CAL pilots are probably screwed for the next few years or probably even longer. Maybe they won't be stapled to the bottom, but they will be working under a crappy contract and no work rules besides FARs.

But at least we got rid of the flowback to Express. LOL

 

[ATRCA]

Honestly, the CAL hookup would have been the best deal for BOTH groups. It's all about perspective though. I've never understood the battered wife syndrome at CAL. Had a DAL deal gone through, you'd probably had much higher total earnings over the last 15 years. Instead you "went it alone" as NWA's b1tch with really slow hiring in the the 90's and a pathetic contract. Take away the last 4 years and frankly, you would have done better just about anywhere else.

As to the FRNT deal, there are two sides to the story, and the UAL ALPA story is MUCH different. IIRC, the deal breaker was that UAL ALPA demanded that the FRNT guys be on the UAL seniority list, being paid UAL payrates, while the company wanted to operate them separately at much lower rates.

Why do I think the CAL would would have been good? You'd have seen 747-400s flying out of EWR to the pacific, and widebodies to most of the international destinations. I really don't think you would have seen the fences you feared. Heck, 777's and 747's have the same payrate. I think the UAL attitude on seniority is to do it once and do it right and after that, you fly what you can hold.

Now for the kicker, and this rumor was out BEFORE you got your letter...It has been reported that one of the big reasons the merger didn't happen is that CAL was unwilling to pay the pilots the new contract rates and equity the deal would have required..."stand by your man...."

Yeah, you're right. They decision not to merge probably had nothing to do with UAL financials and was simply a "pilot pay" issue.

Sound even a little reasonable?

Come on, you can do better than that.

 

[Pocono Pilot]

I think you should be more worried about your own job. Because on June 28, 2008, a notice to withdraw 51 of the existing 205 Covered Aircraft from the current CPA, beginning in December 2009. Also CAL will not extend the term of the current CPA and it will expire on December 31, 2010, all aircraft would be removed from the current CPA by the end of 2012.

That is if you don't get bought by Skywest...
Whats that they say about Karma?

I wouldn't worry too much about us. We have been trying to get rid of the CAL anchor forever. Just wait until Mesa goes out of business and XJT picks it all up from United. I bet we keep the 51 planes. You'll see.

 

[BigMeat]

Honestly, the CAL hookup would have been the best deal for BOTH groups. It's all about perspective though. I've never understood the battered wife syndrome at CAL. Had a DAL deal gone through, you'd probably had much higher total earnings over the last 15 years. Instead you "went it alone" as NWA's b1tch with really slow hiring in the the 90's and a pathetic contract. Take away the last 4 years and frankly, you would have done better just about anywhere else.

As to the FRNT deal, there are two sides to the story, and the UAL ALPA story is MUCH different. IIRC, the deal breaker was that UAL ALPA demanded that the FRNT guys be on the UAL seniority list, being paid UAL payrates, while the company wanted to operate them separately at much lower rates.

Why do I think the CAL would would have been good? You'd have seen 747-400s flying out of EWR to the pacific, and widebodies to most of the international destinations. I really don't think you would have seen the fences you feared. Heck, 777's and 747's have the same payrate. I think the UAL attitude on seniority is to do it once and do it right and after that, you fly what you can hold.

Now for the kicker, and this rumor was out BEFORE you got your letter...It has been reported that one of the big reasons the merger didn't happen is that CAL was unwilling to pay the pilots the new contract rates and equity the deal would have required..."stand by your man...."

You are stupid little man with a little pee pee! U know what I hope happens to you? Let me tell you. I hope that you come home from a trip late at night at United. You look up as you pull up into the driveway. All the lights in your house are out. Puzzled you collect your belongings and open the front door, reach in and flip the light switch. Nothing. Hmmm you think. The neighbors lights are on how come my mine arent. You figure its the fuses downstairs. You take a few steps in put your flight case on the ground and bend down to dig for your flashlight. All of a sudden you feel something wet quickly touch the back of your neck. Startled you jump away just as you felt it happen a second time. When you look up you realize that its a really big black man with no shirt on. The wet you felt was him licking your neck. Thinking your an athelete or something you try to bolt for the door. The next thing you know is all you can feel is stinging as he slaps you off your feet back into the kitchen. You can see him upon you all of a sudden and you protect yourself by trying to punch him. He doesnt even feel it! All you can hear is the big black man tearing your United uniform pants off. Before you can scream you feel something touch your buttocks.........Its okay T-bag, no one cares that you are gone, you left no pension or benefits to anyone.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Now for the kicker, and this rumor was out BEFORE you got your letter...It has been reported that one of the big reasons the merger didn't happen is that CAL was unwilling to pay the pilots the new contract rates and equity the deal would have required..."stand by your man...."

I won't call you names, in case that's true. If it is, then you guys are also better off. I'm hoping and praying to see an "industry leading contract", but if what you say is true, well I'll remember this post. I'll gladly eat my words, cause the local attitude, I believe, is caustic. The pilots are pissed, but can they convey that properly, that's the 1 Billlllllioon dollar question. Can you put any credence in that statement, not that I don't believe it, but it might make it easier to swallow? Thanks if you can, and either way, good luck to us all.