Continental Airlines Chooses Not to Merge

[Kugelblitz]

I am no huge fan of our management, but it is utterly absurd to think that a component in the dissolution of this merger was pilot pay. Larry has even admitted himself that he knows he is going to have to pay us on this next contract. From his standpoint, locking us into a contract at the extant UAL rates would probably be a better deal than dealing with the irate membership at this point.

I think those of you who think this pilot pay theory is at all germane to the collapse of the merger negotiations are simply in denial about UAL's situation. There is little doubt at this point that UAL is in danger of becoming a new TWA in the sense of a hopeless business model and selling of vital, strategic routes to keep itself solvent for the day. I certainly don't wish to see this happen to those of you employed there, but it is a real possibility at this juncture.

To suggest that CAL is so fixated on keeping us pilots poor that they scuttled a deal that would have personally enrichend management handsomely is to obfuscsate the reality of UAL's critical financial circumstances.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

You are stupid little man with a little pee pee! U know what I hope happens to you? Let me tell you. I hope that you come home from a trip late at night at United. You look up as you pull up into the driveway. All the lights in your house are out. Puzzled you collect your belongings and open the front door, reach in and flip the light switch. Nothing. Hmmm you think. The neighbors lights are on how come my mine aren't. You figure its the fuses downstairs. You take a few steps in put your flight case on the ground and bend down to dig for your flashlight. All of a sudden you feel something wet quickly touch the back of your neck. Startled you jump away just as you felt it happen a second time. When you look up you realize that its a really big black man with no shirt on. The wet you felt was him licking your neck. Thinking your an athlete or something you try to bolt for the door. The next thing you know is all you can feel is stinging as he slaps you off your feet back into the kitchen. You can see him upon you all of a sudden and you protect yourself by trying to punch him. He doesn't even feel it! All you can hear is the big black man tearing your United uniform pants off. Before you can scream you feel something touch your buttocks.........Its okay T-bag, no one cares that you are gone, you left no pension or benefits to anyone.

Dude, I've gone off before and will again with anything to do with ALPA National, or Piss ant Prater, but that's kind of scary, psychotic. If you're drinking and posting, OK, but if that's sober, you might want to go jogging or go see a Disney movie, or something a little less stressful. It's cool, he's got his opinion, and it doesn't sit well with most others, but that scenario, is honestly a little demented. No troubles, we're all just cruising by, but that was a little troubling.

 

[Andy]

There is little doubt at this point that UAL is in danger of becoming a new TWA in the sense of a hopeless business model and selling of vital, strategic routes to keep itself solvent for the day. I certainly don't wish to see this happen to those of you employed there, but it is a real possibility at this juncture.

It ain't wine and roses, but it also isn't the darkest days of '04 yet. I'm not saying that United can't get down to that level, in which case the rumors of UAL being cut up between AMR and CAL could come true.
It was a really bad quarter; let's give it a couple more quarters to see how bad things are for UAL. There are others closer to the edge. UAL doesn't have to outlast every airline; it just has to outlast a few other airlines.

Dude, I've gone off before and will again with anything to do with ALPA National, or Piss ant Prater, but that's kind of scary, psychotic. If you're drinking and posting, OK, but if that's sober, you might want to go jogging or go see a Disney movie, or something a little less stressful. It's cool, he's got his opinion, and it doesn't sit well with most others, but that scenario, is honestly a little demented. No troubles, we're all just cruising by, but that was a little troubling.

Nice response. His post was borderline psycho.


Good luck to everyone over at CAL. You've got a good airline and management.

 

[Flopgut]

Honestly, the CAL hookup would have been the best deal for BOTH groups. It's all about perspective though. I've never understood the battered wife syndrome at CAL. Had a DAL deal gone through, you'd probably had much higher total earnings over the last 15 years. Instead you "went it alone" as NWA's b1tch with really slow hiring in the the 90's and a pathetic contract. Take away the last 4 years and frankly, you would have done better just about anywhere else.

As to the FRNT deal, there are two sides to the story, and the UAL ALPA story is MUCH different. IIRC, the deal breaker was that UAL ALPA demanded that the FRNT guys be on the UAL seniority list, being paid UAL payrates, while the company wanted to operate them separately at much lower rates.

Why do I think the CAL would would have been good? You'd have seen 747-400s flying out of EWR to the pacific, and widebodies to most of the international destinations. I really don't think you would have seen the fences you feared. Heck, 777's and 747's have the same payrate. I think the UAL attitude on seniority is to do it once and do it right and after that, you fly what you can hold.

Now for the kicker, and this rumor was out BEFORE you got your letter...It has been reported that one of the big reasons the merger didn't happen is that CAL was unwilling to pay the pilots the new contract rates and equity the deal would have required..."stand by your man...."

The deal NWA and CAL were to have was not approved by DOJ. We'll never know what that should have provided, but it's a pretty safe bet it's better than DAL.

Maybe CAL has screwed up? I thought it was a good match as well. But for whatever reason our guy backed out. Now, as you re-write history to make yourself feel better, don't forget: At no time during this has a CAL employee worn a "screw UAL" pin, displayed a decal that said "one less airline CAN make a difference" Or directed ANY sort of large scale, personal campaign against your pilot group.

BTW, your characterization of the FRNT deal is a complete fairy tale! You wanted them to have the same rates, but couldn't so you dropped them entirely?? "Do it once and do it right and after that, fly what you can hold" worked pretty good for you when they no longer had a job!!! And right after they honored your strike no less. Merger policy died that day. Shoot, you guys were going to do the same thing America West and USAir 10 years ago!! The new legislation will keep UAL ALPA honest.

**Edit: IF it was the dollars that squelched this deal, then it would be because CAL ALPA made it clear to mgt that there was to be expedited dual pilot contract and equity for both groups in the deal. We did not cut our own deal or seek to exclude UAL. Now, tell me you would have done the same?

 

[Kugelblitz]

It ain't wine and roses, but it also isn't the darkest days of '04 yet. I'm not saying that United can't get down to that level, in which case the rumors of UAL being cut up between AMR and CAL could come true.
It was a really bad quarter; let's give it a couple more quarters to see how bad things are for UAL. There are others closer to the edge. UAL doesn't have to outlast every airline; it just has to outlast a few other airlines.



I sincerely hope it never gets that bad. Very best of luck to all of you at United.

 

[T-Bags]

The deal NWA and CAL were to have was not approved by DOJ. We'll never know what that should have provided, but it's a pretty safe bet it's better than DAL.

Maybe CAL has screwed up? I thought it was a good match as well. But for whatever reason our guy backed out. Now, as you re-write history to make yourself feel better, don't forget: At no time during this has a CAL employee worn a "screw UAL" pin, displayed a decal that said "one less airline CAN make a difference" Or directed ANY sort of large scale, personal campaign against your pilot group.

BTW, your characterization of the FRNT deal is a complete fairy tale! You wanted them to have the same rates, but couldn't so you dropped them entirely?? "Do it once and do it right and after that, fly what you can hold" worked pretty good for you when they no longer had a job!!! And right after they honored your strike no less. Merger policy died that day. Shoot, you guys were going to do the same thing America West and USAir 10 years ago!! The new legislation will keep UAL ALPA honest.

A little clarity for you...
I have NEVER worn a "screw CAL" pin. I guess in your world every German citizen today is a Nazi. Ancient history. But if we are all about history, what you are so bitter about happened shortly after CAL and Lorenzo put EAL out of business and kept some of the spoils.
UAL ALPA NEVER STOPPED the FRNT deal. I don't know what planet you live on, but we were along for the ride. Our only demand was ONE LIST. Believe what you'd like.
Even more comical is your characterization of the previous attempts at a merger with U and AWA. AWA decided they wanted to go it alone so seniority issues weren't addressed. When it came to U, UAL attempted to negotiate a pre-nup that was fair, U said "pound sand, we get DOH..(some even wanted "super seniority" since the future was so bright and we were buying them because they were so valuable)...when can I pick up my -400 manuals". Sound familiar? How'd that work for them the last time they tried it.
To my knowledge, UAL has NEVER stapled a pilot group. As a matter of fact, when the Pacific Pan Am routes were purchased, UAL took a few crappy Airplanes, and some VERY senior pilots and GAVE THEM DOH (some of the former National guys got super seniority since they were slotted above some of the Pan Am guys in their merger).
If you don't think employee cost is a huge factor (but not the only factor) in whether these deals will work, then you're dreaming. I'm sure there were other big issues (like the cost of fuel and if taking on the cost of merging when the industry is in a downturn is a good idea...)
As a UAL pilot (on a LOA), I would NEVER advocate a staple. I would NEVER advocate windfalls. I'm for being FAIR. Heck, I even personally oppose fences. After the dust settles, I think having a JOB trumps stroking my ego. You have to work together to keep the airline going. You may not think so now, but the industry NEEDS consolidation. I'm all for rationalization. I'm all for our industry "cutting capacity" and acting like an Oligopoly. Oil companies were HURTING in the late 90's. They were allowed to merge in the late 90's and look at them now. I'd like to see the days of 78 credit hour months (with even less hard hours). 3:1 trip rigs and contract 2001 payrates (adjusted for inflation). That won't happen until we reduce the number of players.

 

[T-Bags]

**Edit: IF it was the dollars that squelched this deal, then it would be because CAL ALPA made it clear to mgt that there was to be expedited dual pilot contract and equity for both groups in the deal. We did not cut our own deal or seek to exclude UAL. Now, tell me you would have done the same?

Let's be frank, it's ALWAYS THE DOLLARS THAT MAKE OR BREAK A DEAL!! What else matters? For all the gnashing of teeth over UAL's first Q, keep in mind they burned $80 million in Cash during the airlines WORST quarter. Some of the loss was the inclusion of the profit sharing checks (that accounted for profit charing for the entire previous year). Could it have been better? YES!! But from a practical standpoint, do you look at Larry and wonder what COULD be done with UAL's route structure? What COULD be done when you match up EWR and IAH with the Pacific route structure, LHR and over 100 more widebody jets (including better than 30 747-400s)? Do you imagine the growth potential and the new flying that could come out of that?
A joint contract? A seniority prenup? Do you really think UAL ALPA would want a deal without them in place? Let me kill any doubts, we are on the same sheet of music!! Strength in Unity!

 

[Andy]

Gents, United's pilots' history isn't spotless. They also shafted the Air Willy pilots. But most of us don't remember those events and need to google them to have any idea what's being talked about. How many on this board were in the industry in the 80s?

Those things happen. I didn't hear a resounding outcry when a bunch of airlines and employees of those airlines ganged up on United back in 04, hoping to kill them and carve them up.
Here's my list:
Atlantic Coast Airlines, a UAL express carrier, decides to start their own airline out IAD. Kills UAL's yields out of IAD.
Frontier Airlines goes into full expansion mode post 9/11, killing United's yields out of DEN.
American pilots cruising the B/C concourses at O'Hare in an attempt to pull passengers away from United.
The various threads on this and other forums discussing the carving up of UAL and which carrier would get which piece of UAL.

I'm sure that there are plenty of other instances. I'd bet that many on this board have had conversations in the past how they'd like to see their airline get United's (fill in blank) once they fold.

For anyone to get on this board and jump all over United's pilots for what happened 20 years ago, when less than 5 years ago everyone was circling UAL's carcass, is pretty dorked up.

We're just at the beginning of problems for airlines. There are going to be companies going chap 7; it won't be pretty. I hope that it's not your airline. I'm less worried about my future should UAL go under; there's always other opportunities. I'm thinking of taking piano lessons; I hope that they're still hiring piano players at the local whorehouse.

Good luck to all.

 

[SFR]

Hooray!!!! This is great!!!! Let UAL go somewhere else!!!

 

[Kugelblitz]

Gents, United's pilots' history isn't spotless. They also shafted the Air Willy pilots. But most of us don't remember those events and need to google them to have any idea what's being talked about. How many on this board were in the industry in the 80s?

Those things happen. I didn't hear a resounding outcry when a bunch of airlines and employees of those airlines ganged up on United back in 04, hoping to kill them and carve them up.
Here's my list:
Atlantic Coast Airlines, a UAL express carrier, decides to start their own airline out IAD. Kills UAL's yields out of IAD.
Frontier Airlines goes into full expansion mode post 9/11, killing United's yields out of DEN.
American pilots cruising the B/C concourses at O'Hare in an attempt to pull passengers away from United.
The various threads on this and other forums discussing the carving up of UAL and which carrier would get which piece of UAL.

I'm sure that there are plenty of other instances. I'd bet that many on this board have had conversations in the past how they'd like to see their airline get United's (fill in blank) once they fold.

For anyone to get on this board and jump all over United's pilots for what happened 20 years ago, when less than 5 years ago everyone was circling UAL's carcass, is pretty dorked up.

We're just at the beginning of problems for airlines. There are going to be companies going chap 7; it won't be pretty. I hope that it's not your airline. I'm less worried about my future should UAL go under; there's always other opportunities. I'm thinking of taking piano lessons; I hope that they're still hiring piano players at the local whorehouse.

Good luck to all.

I find the notion that AA pilots were attempting to sway pax away from UAL by approaching them in the terminal a bit far fetched. Can you expand on that?

 

[Andy]

I find the notion that AA pilots were attempting to sway pax away from UAL by approaching them in the terminal a bit far fetched. Can you expand on that?

There were multiple reports on UAL's forum about it. I guess they got a few nonrevs also.
I'm not saying that it was a large amount of pilots, but I guess that it was enough to get noticed.
I don't have first hand info on it, as I didn't travel through ORD during that time period. But again, there were multiple reports of this activity.

Look, you've got a few in every crowd. With >10K pilots at AMR, are you surprised that a few would've done this?
United has >7K pilots, and I'm never surprised at what a few will do.

Just look at how quickly many on this board have put United on deathwatch, yourself included. I'm sure that a few 'enterprising' employees of other airlines are thinking of ways to push us over the edge.

 

[Palomino]

There were multiple reports on UAL's forum about it. I guess they got a few nonrevs also.
I'm not saying that it was a large amount of pilots, but I guess that it was enough to get noticed.
I don't have first hand info on it, as I didn't travel through ORD during that time period. But again, there were multiple reports of this activity.

Look, you've got a few in every crowd. With >10K pilots at AMR, are you surprised that a few would've done this?
United has >7K pilots, and I'm never surprised at what a few will do.

Just look at how quickly many on this board have put United on deathwatch, yourself included. I'm sure that a few 'enterprising' employees of other airlines are thinking of ways to push us over the edge.

tin foil hats will keep you safe

 

[Flopgut]

A little clarity for you...
I have NEVER worn a "screw CAL" pin.

K. Maybe you didn't. Plenty did! In the context of this thread and most recent events, the point is: No one at CAL is. CAL ALPA is working toward a clean deal. I'm not sure UAL ALPA would be if the roles were reversed. There is too much history that suggests otherwise. There certainly is not enough positive history regarding UAL ALPA that you get the benefit of the doubt. Let's see how it goes with USAir this time. Do you deny that 10 years ago UAL ALPA's rick d. was quoted as saying: "This is a purchase, not a merger" [paraphrased slightly] regarding UAL/USAir?

 

[Flopgut]

Let's be frank, it's ALWAYS THE DOLLARS THAT MAKE OR BREAK A DEAL!! What else matters? For all the gnashing of teeth over UAL's first Q, keep in mind they burned $80 million in Cash during the airlines WORST quarter. Some of the loss was the inclusion of the profit sharing checks (that accounted for profit charing for the entire previous year). Could it have been better? YES!! But from a practical standpoint, do you look at Larry and wonder what COULD be done with UAL's route structure? What COULD be done when you match up EWR and IAH with the Pacific route structure, LHR and over 100 more widebody jets (including better than 30 747-400s)? Do you imagine the growth potential and the new flying that could come out of that?
A joint contract? A seniority prenup? Do you really think UAL ALPA would want a deal without them in place? Let me kill any doubts, we are on the same sheet of music!! Strength in Unity!

Allright, let's disagree on everything but this. I totally agree that UAL for all pratical purposes is a powerhouse. This quarter has been exaggerated and would be a lot different if you had any other CEO! (you could hire satan to run UAL and be better off!!) If Tilton was serious about sqwaking 1200 completely to get this deal done, then I wish Larry would have gone ahead with it for that reason alone. I do wish this merger would have been a good thing. I hope Larry knows what he's doing, and I hope UAL goes on to do very well, like it rightfully should. I must insist on some credit for CAL ALPA, however. They did a pretty good job and didn't try to pull any stunts. That's all.

 

[Skank]

Andy,
I usually agree with much of what you post here, but big bad ACA ganging up on UAL? What about UAL soliciting Mesa for a nice lowball price to do the UEX flying?

...just another point of view.

 

[atrdriver]

You got that right. CAL pilots are the most underpaid in the industry besides Mesa maybe. That's why I turned them down. I couldn't lower myself to working for no insurance for a year either.

I have to say that I really do think that CAL pilots are probably screwed for the next few years or probably even longer. Maybe they won't be stapled to the bottom, but they will be working under a crappy contract and no work rules besides FARs.

But at least we got rid of the flowback to Express. LOL

Yeah, you turned them down. If you keep telling that to yourself maybe it will really be true. As to the flowback, I would rather roll naked over broken glass than take a CHANCE I might have to fly next to you.

 

[Andy]

Andy,
I usually agree with much of what you post here, but big bad ACA ganging up on UAL? What about UAL soliciting Mesa for a nice lowball price to do the UEX flying?

...just another point of view.

I worked zone control at Dulles during that time. I guess that you didn't hear about the rollout party for Indy Air. I don't remember the exact quotes, but it went something along the lines of killing United. Indy increased the number of flights out of IAD significantly and had lowball ticket prices.
Losing the A gates hurt quite a bit. The regional operation was moved to some temporary gates; either G or H - I can't remember. Many an Indy Air employee remarked that those gates were nasty - I agree with them; the difference between A and G (or H) was significant.

 

[BigMeat]

Dude, I've gone off before and will again with anything to do with ALPA National, or Piss ant Prater, but that's kind of scary, psychotic. If you're drinking and posting, OK, but if that's sober, you might want to go jogging or go see a Disney movie, or something a little less stressful. It's cool, he's got his opinion, and it doesn't sit well with most others, but that scenario, is honestly a little demented. No troubles, we're all just cruising by, but that was a little troubling.

Yeah that was a little much sorry T-bags. On another note. I can understand how a merger with CAL would have been beneficial to UAL. It might have been a glimmer of hope with the likes of Tilton commanding the ship. I wish there was a way to put pressure on the shareholder legally or illegally to can this guy. You guys should do what NW did last summer send a message that since this ship is going down anyhow with Tilton, we will help you. Have we lost that much backbone in this profession. What are we scared of losing? When does it get to the point that the few thousand that you make extra as a pilot is not worth the hassle of being away from friends, family, life....etc. We can sit here all we want and pick at each other. We can complain to our hearts desire. But I hope that there is a grass roots campaign to do this and I hope this it will get all of United pilots support. I wish the best for you guys.

 

[T-Bags]

Meat,
No worries! We're talking about our careers here, so of course it's easy to get spun up.
The $10's of thousands of dollars LESS I make as a pilot is definitely not worth it.....

 

[hagen]

Yeah, you turned them down. If you keep telling that to yourself maybe it will really be true. As to the flowback, I would rather roll naked over broken glass than take a CHANCE I might have to fly next to you.

don't worry she wasn't even there when there were flowbacks.