Congrat's The goose is cooked!

[Cobraair75drvr]

Yip,

We get it. Why should we accept the top 15%? Why shouldn't we be in the top 1% or even top 5%? Just because you got stuck at a non sched. your whole career why should the rest of us lower our expectations? Do you think the yahoos ruining (oops, running) our companies set their personal financial goals so low? I know you know that VERY FEW pilots at the majors do not have a degree. Whether or not one is needed is another story. But to tell new pilots in the industry one is not needed is misleading at best.

 

[pilotyip]

I do not understand

Yip,

We get it. Why should we accept the top 15%? Why shouldn't we be in the top 1% or even top 5%? Just because you got stuck at a non sched. your whole career why should the rest of us lower our expectations? Do you think the yahoos ruining (oops, running) our companies set their personal financial goals so low? I know you know that VERY FEW pilots at the majors do not have a degree. Whether or not one is needed is another story. But to tell new pilots in the industry one is not needed is misleading at best.

Yes you should strive for more, but where else could most pilots make more than $95K? My brother GM management, MBA, 30 years in GM management does not break the $100K barrier. As I have psoted before my brother -in-law, who runs a muffler shjop probably makes more than anyone posting on this thread, no college degree. BTW I am still living the dream, I hold the non-sked pilots I flew with in the highest regard, many have gone on better jobs, but their roots are embedded at KYIP. I have only broken the $95K level once in my life. Yet I am extremely comfortable in retirement, own 4 houses, 5 cars and and an airplane. I do not understand the level of happiness with making $95K per year.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

As a regional pilot, way back when "I" voted to turn about 7 or 8 THOUSAND entry level positions at mainline into 7 or 8 THOUSAND career positons at the regional level, I was thinking....., OH, wait a tick. Actually, I wasn't in on that decision. Sorry, I guess you'll have to ask some ALPA/APA mainline pilots about that one.

When I started my regional job, we flew turbo props and SkyWest was a good place to spend 3-5 years. We all know the rest of the story.

What the heck, I was over six figures last year (to the left of the decimal point) as a non check airman line pilot averaging 16 days off a month. Right now, I wouldn't trade my quality of life for juniority at a legacy for anything. That may change in the future, but the people who make those decisions are the same ones who sold out 7 to 8 thousand mainline jobs (excepting the ones that took the lump some early retirement buy out.)

So ALPA/APA, let me know what you decide. My logbook is up to date. Change the game and I'll think about updating my scantron. For now I'll make the best of it.

And please, please stop with this nonsense that the people who's careers you shat upon for you own shortsighted reasons are dragging this profession down. That decision rests with you. I don't have a vote on scope, but I do need to feed my family.

 

[JoeMerchant]

As a regional pilot, way back when "I" voted to turn about 7 or 8 THOUSAND entry level positions at mainline into 7 or 8 THOUSAND career positons at the regional level, I was thinking....., OH, wait a tick. Actually, I wasn't in on that decision. Sorry, I guess you'll have to ask some ALPA/APA mainline pilots about that one.

When I started my regional job, we flew turbo props and SkyWest was a good place to spend 3-5 years. We all know the rest of the story.

What the heck, I was over six figures last year (to the left of the decimal point) as a non check airman line pilot averaging 16 days off a month. Right now, I wouldn't trade my quality of life for juniority at a legacy for anything. That may change in the future, but the people who make those decisions are the same ones who sold out 7 to 8 thousand mainline jobs (excepting the ones that took the lump some early retirement buy out.)

So ALPA/APA, let me know what you decide. My logbook is up to date. Change the game and I'll think about updating my scantron. For now I'll make the best of it.

And please, please stop with this nonsense that the people who's careers you shat upon for you own shortsighted reasons are dragging this profession down. That decision rests with you. I don't have a vote on scope, but I do need to feed my family.

:beer:
Very well said...This a view that is shared by a growing number of "regional" pilots...

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

You can share any view you want. However, unless we give anymore of section 1 up you are headed for a whipsaw of epic proportions in the future. Way too many small lift providers and you all will be competing vigorously for the shrinking pie as airline systems are combined and rationalized.

:beer:
Very well said...This a view that is shared by a growing number of "regional" pilots...

 

[CptMurf]

FYI, I'm sick of hearing the term "Regional Airlines" ...That's nothing but a PC term for "Commuter Airline".

Unless your "Commute" is a thousand mile flight, I'll stick with the Regional moniker. Give up some more scope and we'll have to call it "Domestic Airlines."

I, like most of the senior "Regional" pilots did not intend on being here so long. But due to 9-11, mainline bankruptcies, relaxed scope, economic turmoil, and age 65 were stuck here. All we can do is make our contracts better than when we got here. Unfortunately, the baby boomer pilots have destroyed the industry by starting "commuter" airlines contracts so low, refusing to fly turboprops at mainline, refusing to fly 50 seat jets at mainline, selling scope for the false sense of protection in their own jobs, and now whining to get age 65 passed.

You want to point fingers, point them at yourself. Anyone of use would have flown anywhere for any pay, to get into the industry. You can't blame the 21 year old that has an opportunity to fly at a regional, you would have do it too. In the 60's they would have gone straight to UAL (with NO licenses or college). Now those same guys, shame the regional pilots (with all their ratings and a 4-year aviation degree) saying that they are unsafe and have no place in the industry.

The shame, the demise of the industry, all that fault lies solely on the mainline pilots shoulders.

 

[Jon Rivoli]

[QUOTEYou can share any view you want. However, unless we give anymore of section 1 up you are headed for a whipsaw of epic proportions in the future. Way too many small lift providers and you all will be competing vigorously for the shrinking pie as airline systems are combined and rationalized.
][/QUOTE]

You dumb ass, we didn't want you to give up any of section 1 in the first place. Why would you give up more now?

 

[JoeMerchant]

You can share any view you want. However, unless we give anymore of section 1 up you are headed for a whipsaw of epic proportions in the future. Way too many small lift providers and you all will be competing vigorously for the shrinking pie as airline systems are combined and rationalized.

We have already been dealing with the whipsaw and it has put downward pressure on your rates and flying....Nobody wins with the whipsaw...Not even you...

Some of us will compete for the flying that remains.....that will involve taking concessions...which in turn puts further downward pressure on your pay and flying.

Some of us will slowly become competitors of yours over the next decade and some of us will fly much larger airplanes in direct competition with you.

You can have any viewpoint you want also...Doesn't mean it will happen however...

 

[OUjetdrvr]

The scope issue is being fought by the mainline with poor outdated strategy. Its time each mainline pilot group embrace each of their main regional groups and battle to get them on the same team and stop fighting and blaming them. Safety in numbers!
That may be the only way to stabilize the direction of the contracts at all levels. If you merge the planes and the pilots you have greater leverage. It can be done in obtuse ways to disguise what it is, i.e. a pure bi-directional flowplan!

 

[pilotyip]

Will this raise costs?

The scope issue is being fought by the mainline with poor outdated strategy. Its time each mainline pilot group embrace each of their main regional groups and battle to get them on the same team and stop fighting and blaming them. Safety in numbers!
That may be the only way to stabilize the direction of the contracts at all levels. If you merge the planes and the pilots you have greater leverage. It can be done in obtuse ways to disguise what it is, i.e. a pure bi-directional flowplan!

If this is done and results in jacked up costs to the airlines, there will be a down side. The consumer will dictate how many pilots will be employed at any given fare level. The higher the ticket prices, the lower the riders. Equals fewer flight, fewer planes and fewer crews. There is an unintended consequence of every action that has to be considered.

 

[BoilerUP]

While that's an economically sound theory YIP, we're talking a few percent increase in crew compensation which could be MORE than offset by taking 100% advantage of a mainline carrier's economies of scale with maintenance, parts, fuel, and other necessary vendor items.

 

[pilotyip]

Only known after it happens

While that's an economically sound theory YIP, we're talking a few percent increase in crew compensation which could be MORE than offset by taking 100% advantage of a mainline carrier's economies of scale with maintenance, parts, fuel, and other necessary vendor items.

You may be correct, but again it is the unintended consequences that are unknown at the beginning. For example, if the pilots get raises, will the FA's. Mech's and baggage smashers all stand by at their present pay rates? This along with a hose of other unknowns would make consolidation anything but a sure thing. Remember in the end, it is not management, gov't or unions that determine your pay, it is the consumer who elects to make an independent economic decision based in his/her best interest.

 

[budd]

Ok we will vote down the next ********************ty contract that is ta'd. But then when we strike you have to walk out with us. That is the BIGGEST problem. You *************************'s keep flying instead of supporting the "INDUSTRY". We can't do it alone, it's not our fault you want your big house in your little bubble world to just sit back and blame us about your 10% paycut. Until mainline grows some balls and walks out with whatever regional trying for a deserving contract this will go on and on and on........Did Delta walk out with Comair? Mesaba stopped all flying when NWA struck. These are the facts. I don't care if mainline says you can't walk with the regional that strikes. If you don't, you have no right pointing fingers in who is destroying this career. You don't want to support the striking airline and you don't pay the mortgage for those on strike so what the hell are they suppose to do.

 

[nerjdriver]

To all of you union boys who vote in lousy pay and rules at the regionals. Congrats!

Another low paying career is evolving in this country and you boys are making it happen. What was a great career is truning into a slave labor industry. Low pay, crappy work rules, time away from home and family.

Keep applying to Gojets, Colgan, Republic, Pinnacle,etc.

The I gotta fly at all costs so when I turn 50 and secure a captains seat at a major airline so I can finally earn a good salary is working out just fine.

How about this.

To all you union boys who gave up scope at the majors CONGRATS!

To all the RAH Riddle Diddles who see nothing wrong with flying the A320 for $3.50 an hr in the right seat because it gets your roc*& off.

To wonderful ALPA national that exists solely to make lanyards and a literary masterpiece known as the "Airline Pilot Magazine".

Oh and of course.......To Mesa, you suck!

 

[lineflyer1]

As a regional pilot, way back when "I" voted to turn about 7 or 8 THOUSAND entry level positions at mainline into 7 or 8 THOUSAND career positons at the regional level, I was thinking....., OH, wait a tick. Actually, I wasn't in on that decision. Sorry, I guess you'll have to ask some ALPA/APA mainline pilots about that one.

When I started my regional job, we flew turbo props and SkyWest was a good place to spend 3-5 years. We all know the rest of the story.

What the heck, I was over six figures last year (to the left of the decimal point) as a non check airman line pilot averaging 16 days off a month. Right now, I wouldn't trade my quality of life for juniority at a legacy for anything. That may change in the future, but the people who make those decisions are the same ones who sold out 7 to 8 thousand mainline jobs (excepting the ones that took the lump some early retirement buy out.)

So ALPA/APA, let me know what you decide. My logbook is up to date. Change the game and I'll think about updating my scantron. For now I'll make the best of it.

And please, please stop with this nonsense that the people who's careers you shat upon for you own shortsighted reasons are dragging this profession down. That decision rests with you. I don't have a vote on scope, but I do need to feed my family.

Your have a good job. Skywest learned a lot from Delta. Treat your people well and they will not vote a union in.

Problem is, all the good regional jobs have started to slip backwards due to the competitive pressures brought on by Colgan, Mesa, Go Jet, Republic etc,etc.

Even Skywest pilots who voted to fly 70 seat aircraft for 50 seat rates, oh I forgot no voting involved, are bringing the financial rewards of this career backwards. It's nice to see Skywest has not furloughed yet but there are many pilots not making the money they used to make at Skywest do to reduced flying. I believe it was Skywests undercutting of Expressjet that caused that pilot group to suffer wage loses.

Sooner or later you too at Skywest will feel the ravages of being undercut by those who think there will be a great paying job at the other end if they just get that experience as quick as they can no matter how little compensation they have to fly for to get it.

 

[budd]

So answer my Question Lineflyer!!! Are mainline pilots going to walk with the regionals when they strike and try to better the profession????? That is the only way this will be fixed. Post all the bs you want about who is undercutting who you want, BUT WILL YOU WALKOUT WITH US???? If your answer is the contract doesn't allow us to, than STFU!!! ALPA won't help us, so we need the guys making the money we all want to make to be on our side, or your paycheck and flying will continue to shrink. It really is that simple!!! I have put my time in and deserve it as much as you, so the next time any regional strikes we all walk. They can't fire all of us. Hows that for a solution. mesa excluded. You get the point! Quit pointing fingers at guys that have the same goals as you with familys and bills to pay. By the way, the competitive pressures are from management and mainline pilots (especially mainline ALPO), not the regional guys. Think about that after a couple beers, OK!!! FuOf!!​

 

[lineflyer1]

So answer my Question Lineflyer!!! Are mainline pilots going to walk with the regionals when they strike and try to better the profession????? That is the only way this will be fixed. Post all the bs you want about who is undercutting who you want, BUT WILL YOU WALKOUT WITH US???? If your answer is the contract doesn't allow us to, than STFU!!! ALPA won't help us, so we need the guys making the money we all want to make to be on our side, or your paycheck and flying will continue to shrink. It really is that simple!!! I have put my time in and deserve it as much as you, so the next time any regional strikes we all walk. They can't fire all of us. Hows that for a solution. mesa excluded. You get the point! Quit pointing fingers at guys that have the same goals as you with familys and bills to pay. By the way, the competitive pressures are from management and mainline pilots (especially mainline ALPO), not the regional guys. Think about that after a couple beers, OK!!! FuOf!!​

Can't strike or walk out with you! I'm no longer employed at an airline!

I only had one contract to vote on and that was at a regional. My vote was no but more than 50% of my fellow pilots voted yes for it. The CAL pilots will never walk.

All you have to do is look at where the manufacturing jobs have gone in this country, to the lowest cost provider. The same thing is happening to the airline industry here. Deny all u want, the fact still remains that most regional pilots won't strike. They need the job to get to that major job that will soon be just a shadow of it's former self, as far as a career goes.

P.S. Just curious> How many contracts have u voted no on?

 

[ttuite]

and you will flying that 737-800 for 95k a year!

And loving life too! That's more than he will make and probably have weekends off. Much better than at mainline in the same amount of time. You can't just look at hourly pay anymore you have to look at quality of life. I have a good friend with 2 years at Delta who will make under 60K this year. He sits in a crash pad in NYC and gets his min days off. He is making at least 30K less than he was making at Mesa. Guess he is just still paying his dues. All I know is that he is seriously looking for a job outside of aviation. Delta is supposed to be one of the good ones! Imagine what it is like at CAL, UAL or USAir

 

[lineflyer1]

And loving life too! That's more than he will make and probably have weekends off. Much better than at mainline in the same amount of time. You can't just look at hourly pay anymore you have to look at quality of life. I have a good friend with 2 years at Delta who will make under 60K this year. He sits in a crash pad in NYC and gets his min days off. He is making at least 30K less than he was making at Mesa. Guess he is just still paying his dues. All I know is that he is seriously looking for a job outside of aviation. Delta is supposed to be one of the good ones! Imagine what it is like at CAL, UAL or USAir

Don't have to imagine. I was at CAL. My job Captains set at Expressjet was way better than my first officer seat at CAL.

Just like the majors flying has shifted to the regionals because of cost, the flying is shifting from high cost regionals to low cost regionals now and those guys who keep voting in crappy contracts just to keep flying will eventually find all the contracts everywhere to be crappy once they have clmbed the ladder.

 

[lineflyer1]

And loving life too! That's more than he will make and probably have weekends off. Much better than at mainline in the same amount of time. You can't just look at hourly pay anymore you have to look at quality of life. I have a good friend with 2 years at Delta who will make under 60K this year. He sits in a crash pad in NYC and gets his min days off. He is making at least 30K less than he was making at Mesa. Guess he is just still paying his dues. All I know is that he is seriously looking for a job outside of aviation. Delta is supposed to be one of the good ones! Imagine what it is like at CAL, UAL or USAir

Probelm is pay is disapperaring and so is the quality of life in every contract out there.

I know why your friend is looking outside.

Even though you may only have 8 days a month off at a regular job you're home every night, your wife and kids actually know who you are and all those birthdays and events in your childrens lifes you can be at. Sounds like your friend has figured out where the true quality in life is.

Pilots are addicts. Thats why we take time away from home to commute across the country so we can fly for 18 days a month with pilots and flight attendants that we have never met before, who we don't enjoy being around because so many are waiting to stab each another in the back, so on layovers we hang out alone because most of the people you fly with are just not that friendly.

Home, family and friends. Thats were the true quality lies, through the friendships and comaraderie that are built by being together every day of your life.