Congrats AWA MEC......................

[Frank Lorenzo]

My guess when it is all said and done and we are operating as one airline is that there will probably be an ALPA decertification drive. It was tried several years ago at AWA and failed,but this time I think there is enough disgust in ALPA on both sides of the fence that this time it just might fly. Hope I'm wrong.PHXFLYR

Now I need everyone to just sit back and take a deep breath. There is a lot of crazy talk going on about getting rid of ALPA. This is very disturbing to me and a lot of other executives in the airline industry. If it were not for ALPA, airline management would not have been able to cut airline pilot's pay and benefits in half and pushed your quality of life clauses back decades so easily.

We paid a lot of money to buy off Duane Woerth. It has paid off in spades. Just look at the Primrose path he took his own NWA pilots down! I'd say our little "financial arrangement" with Duane has been more than "Woerth" the money! Ha ha. Sorry, couldn't help it.

Please. Just sit back and think about the stakes involved here. It is not just one executive you will hurt. It is literally DOZENS of executives at the airlines that will be hurt by your recklessness. Without the huge bonuses made possible by pilot's pay cuts and plundered pensions, you are putting many many estates, yachts, country club memberships, and fleets of Mercedes Benz at stake.

Please give. Give till it hurts.

 

[TWA Dude]

Well... They are the best paid in the industry right now

Are they the happiest?

AA still has a pension too!

And that's because of their superior union? And how much longer do we think they'll keep their pensions?

 

[TWA Dude]

You get some of the jobs....be happy about it.

And here we have incontrovertable proof that the Easties got the better of the 190 arbitration: the winners always tell the losers to just "be happy about" what they got. Funny, but I don't recall ever becoming happy as a result of somebody telling me to.

 

[A350]

Noone told you to be happy about the arbitration.....but I suppose when the inevitable screw job comes down towards the 1800+ furloughees at U that have been patiently awaiting their turn at the dinner table you won't be telling me to calm down as we have an airline to run?

Like it or not, these airplanes were ordered PRE merger. The fact that you have any positions on them is a condemnation of the U MEC, not the AWA MEC.

A350

 

[JetMonkey]

....the airplanes were ordered before the merger. Therefore, you have no right to any of it.

They were?? the order came out earlier this year, the merger was official back in Sep 05.

I don't see too many AWA folks wanting to commute to PHL.

Think we all live in PHX huh?

Does that mean anything to any of you or are you going to complain until you retire?

We're pilots, that's what we do.

 

[Bubba Dog]

And here we have incontrovertable proof that the Easties got the better of the 190 arbitration: the winners always tell the losers to just "be happy about" what they got. Funny, but I don't recall ever becoming happy as a result of somebody telling me to.

The distribution of E190 flying is fair when you consider the ratio of east vs west pilot numbers. As a matter of fact when you factor in the furloughed it is exactly 1/3 vs 2/3. The west should have took the original offer from the east of 60/40. By refusing that and forcing the arbitrator to recognize the furloughees, as evidenced in the ratio, it will prove disastrous when seniority integration occurs because the E190 decision has been given the green light to be used as precedence. I hate to say it but you guys did it to your selfs. The furloughees are almost guaranteed a slotting integration now because of the west MEC's decisions.

 

[Doug Parker]

By refusing that and forcing the arbitrator to recognize the furloughees, as evidenced in the ratio, it will prove disastrous when seniority integration occurs because the E190 decision has been given the green light to be used as precedence. I hate to say it but you guys did it to your selfs. The furloughees are almost guaranteed a slotting integration now because of the west MEC's decisions.

Hey BubbaHog,

Maybe you should read the Arbitration Proceedings under ISSUES - #5 before you open your trap about this arbitration being used in the integration.





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.

 

[Swaayze]

The furloughees are almost guaranteed a slotting integration now because of the west MEC's decisions.

Ha ha ha, hoo ho haa haa. Woooooeeee that's a funny one right there! I don't care who ya' are!



Not gonna happen.

 

[mrnolmts]

NWN RULES! Carry on, folks...

 

[abefly]

I hate to say it but you guys did it to your selfs. The furloughees are almost guaranteed a slotting integration now because of the west MEC's decisions.[/quote]

Now that is the most entertaining thing I have heard on here in a long time. You feel that the furloughed people should come ahead of active pilots Bubba? Is that what you are hoping for? To screw all the America West Pilots!

 

[ALGFLYR]

They were?? the order came out earlier this year, the merger was official back in Sep 05.

Well, you're wrong there. The order was placed back in late '03. These planes are a part of the original order that included the 170's. The AAA MEC did not assert this fact hard enough in the arbitration or the transition agreement. These were not new aircraft. period.

 

[Doug Parker]

Well, you're wrong there. The order was placed back in late '03. These planes are a part of the original order that included the 170's. The AAA MEC did not assert this fact hard enough in the arbitration or the transition agreement. These were not new aircraft. period.

So ALGFLYER,

What mainline aircraft did you fly ???


.

 

[Bubba Dog]

Hey BubbaHog,

Maybe you should read the Arbitration Proceedings under ISSUES - #5 before you open your trap about this arbitration being used in the integration.






Maybe you should refer to section 4.D of the TA which allows this. This was referenced in the E190 arbitration under issues # 5. Hopefully this will clear things up for you.





.

 

[Bubba Dog]

I hate to say it but you guys did it to your selfs. The furloughees are almost guaranteed a slotting integration now because of the west MEC's decisions.[/quote]

Now that is the most entertaining thing I have heard on here in a long time. You feel that the furloughed people should come ahead of active pilots Bubba? Is that what you are hoping for? To screw all the America West Pilots!

I never said ahead,just follow ALPA merger procedures which will probably result in some slotting. I have been involved with AAA since 89 and I don't think I deserve to be stapled to the bottom. The E190 arbitrator seemed to support that as the split was 1/3 vs 2/3. The only way you can obtain those numbers is to include the furloughees.

 

[abefly]

I never said ahead,just follow ALPA merger procedures which will probably result in some slotting. I have been involved with AAA since 89 and I don't think I deserve to be stapled to the bottom. The E190 arbitrator seemed to support that as the split was 1/3 vs 2/3. The only way you can obtain those numbers is to include the furloughees.

This may or may not be true but the only guidelines the arbitrator had for the 190's was the transition agreement. The senority integration has alpa's merger policy as a guideline. And the fact is that you had no carrer expectation prior to this merger. I do feel for those of you who are furloughed but you should and will not benefit at my expense!

 

[Doug Parker]

Hey BubbaHog,

Maybe you should read the Arbitration Proceedings under ISSUES - #5 before you open your trap about this arbitration being used in the integration.






Maybe you should refer to section 4.D of the TA which allows this. This was referenced in the E190 arbitration under issues # 5. Hopefully this will clear things up for you.





.

I was referring to the precedent being (not) set by the Arbitrator's ruling on integration of the 2 lists.


Again, read Issues #5 about no precedent being set - we're still using ALPA merger policy - and we know what career expectations of the AAA group was.


.
.

 

[TWA Dude]

The distribution of E190 flying is fair when you consider the ratio of east vs west pilot numbers.

I didn't say it was unfair. I don't like it but that's irrelevant.

As a matter of fact when you factor in the furloughed it is exactly 1/3 vs 2/3.

The arbitrator's award makes no mention of the furloughees.

The west should have took the original offer from the east of 60/40.

Funny, I thought it was the East that withdrew the offer.

The furloughees are almost guaranteed a slotting integration now because of the west MEC's decisions.

Try not to confuse opinion with fact. Good luck.

 

[Bubba Dog]

I was referring to the precedent being (not) set by the Arbitrator's ruling on integration of the 2 lists.


Again, read Issues #5 about no precedent being set - we're still using ALPA merger policy - and we know what career expectations of the AAA group was.


.
.

If you study other awards you will notice precedence being used over and over again. I will agree expectations were uncertain but we will never know what would have happened. One thing is for sure,ALPA merger policy will be followed and subject to immense interpretation and precedent. You have to agree the flying was divided 1/3 2/3 in the E190 case. I guarranty you the arbitrator WILL reference that award and will factor heavily in his award in my opinion.

 

[Bubba Dog]

I didn't say it was unfair. I don't like it but that's irrelevant.The arbitrator's award makes no mention of the furloughees.Funny, I thought it was the East that withdrew the offer.Try not to confuse opinion with fact. Good luck.

You are definetely correct about "opinion". You seem like a decent guy and look forward to working with you in the future.

 

[Bubba Dog]

This may or may not be true but the only guidelines the arbitrator had for the 190's was the transition agreement. The senority integration has alpa's merger policy as a guideline. And the fact is that you had no carrer expectation prior to this merger. I do feel for those of you who are furloughed but you should and will not benefit at my expense!

Nor will you benefit at my expense.

 

[Bringupthebird]

So the 1/3 ratio works because you include the furloughees who WILL BYPASS THE E190. But their benefit comes when they get handed an Airbus CA slot that was formerly held by an AWA pilot.

The T/A should have DEMANDED that the furloughees accept recall to whatever is put in front of them, or ADIOS MUCHACHO!

 

[JetMonkey]

The west should have took the original offer from the east of 60/40.

Why, when the transistion agreement states that we were entitled to 50/50 for any growth flying.

 

[abefly]

Nor will you benefit at my expense.

Benefit, This merger has already screwed all of us at awa. Remember we were hiring 300 a year and growing. You were, Im guessing, On the street. No furloughed pilot has ever bumped an active pilot. Why do you think this will be diferent?

 

[xanderman]

Huh????????

Actually, there is. It's called the Transition Agreement and the Company signed it.

Dude are you serious!?!?!?!? The company has and will continue to tell us to "grieve it" when ever it doesn't fit their plan. C'mon man time to grow a pair and stand up for yourself. Only we can change things in this awful mess.

 

[vetrider]

Benefit, This merger has already screwed all of us at awa. Remember we were hiring 300 a year and growing. You were, Im guessing, On the street. No furloughed pilot has ever bumped an active pilot. Why do you think this will be diferent?

Bumping an active pilot is not the same as coming in off furlough above an active pilot on the list. I think it is entirely possible that that the furloughees may come back to a spot that is part of a figured slotting ratio. I'll leave out the editorial, I just think that it is possible.

 

[GOTAFLY]

I was under the impression that AWA has Approx.1800 Pilots and AAA about 2400 if you round down. With that said there is a differance of 600 which is approx 1/3 more pilots on the AAA side not including those f type. So bubbadog I dont see were you think that the unemployed guys were concidered in the 2/3 1/3 split in the 190 arbitration.

 

[TWA Dude]

Dude are you serious!?!?!?!?

Yes.

The company has and will continue to tell us to "grieve it" when ever it doesn't fit their plan. C'mon man time to grow a pair and stand up for yourself. Only we can change things in this awful mess.

Oooh, strong words. Exactly what strong action(s) will extricate us from this mess? We have mediation and arbitration coming up. Should we shout really strong words at Nicolau?
What we really need is strong leadership, a commodity lacking at most unions these days. Since you have a pair why don't you run for MEC Chairman?

 

[Bubba Dog]

Benefit, This merger has already screwed all of us at awa. Remember we were hiring 300 a year and growing. You were, Im guessing, On the street. No furloughed pilot has ever bumped an active pilot. Why do you think this will be diferent?

We will let the arbitrator decide.

 

[Bubba Dog]

I was under the impression that AWA has Approx.1800 Pilots and AAA about 2400 if you round down. With that said there is a differance of 600 which is approx 1/3 more pilots on the AAA side not including those f type. So bubbadog I dont see were you think that the unemployed guys were concidered in the 2/3 1/3 split in the 190 arbitration.

1853 AWA + 2422 AAA= 4275, approximately 44%

4275 Total + 1350(furloughed excluding those who have by passed)= 5625

1853 divided by 5625= 33%

The arbitrator has now defined "fair and equitable" for the seniority integration.

As Forest Gump says "thats all I have to say about that".

I am tired of this point, counterpoint, this could go on forever,so let's just all agree to disagree and let the arbitrator decide. I'm through.

 

[BeCareful!]

I am tired of this point, counterpoint, this could go on forever,so let's just all agree to disagree and let the arbitrator decide. I'm through.

Phew! It's about time. Bubba, I think you suffer from a toxic case of wishful thinking.

Even if by some chance you are right, what good does it do to blather on and on about your arbitration theories here?