Compass to Seperate from DAL MEC

[PCL_128]

Representation from pilots not on your seniority list and who don't work for your airline is hardly representation.

Does John Prater not represent you? Paul Rice? Rory Kay? Bill Couette? The list goes on.

Again, the CPZ pilots don't seem to be complaining about their representational structure. They seem quite happy with it. Why won't you let them have the representation that they want?

I hope you don't think the new DAL MEC is made up of wholly righteous individuals

At the very least, 13 of them proved that they aren't.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joey, you're missing his key point: they have representation in Council 20, and both of the Council 20 reps voting against this nonsense, just as the overwhelming majority of the CPZ pilots apparently want. They got their representation. It's ridiculous for you to continue claiming that they didn't.

You're missing the point...How can you be represented by an LEC and MEC that you aren't on the same seniority list with? This was destined to fail from the beginning...The Compass pilots have fallen for the sales job that they are part of the mainline MEC....Now they are being jettisoned much like MidAtlantic was...

 

[DoinTime]

Does John Prater not represent you? Paul Rice? Rory Kay? Bill Couette? The list goes on.

The above mentioned represent the interests of ALPAs BOD. If any Compass pilots had a seat on the BOD then their interests might get heard.

 

[PCL_128]

The above mentioned represent the interests of ALPAs BOD. If any Compass pilots had a seat on the BOD then their interests might get heard.

Again, the CPZ pilots seem to feel that the reps they have are doing more than a fine job of representing them. Let them have what they want.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

And I will agree with you about being a blood sucking problem. While I am sure my public math will get scewered, here it goes: Delta pilots contribute roughly $28,550,000 per year(avg. salary $120,000 X 1.95% X 12,200 pilots) to ALPA. It takes about 24,400 regional pilots to equal this(avg. salary $60,000 X 1.95% =$1170. $28,550,000/$1170= 24,401) You guys are getting way the f$$k more than you will contribute in a lifetime. As a matter of fact they should raise your dues. Better yet, kick you out. If we(Majors) can't/won't take back the flying WE OWN that is in OUR sec.1 because of the fear of a lawsuit from a sub-contractor then things must change. Either you leave/kicked out or we do. You leave and ALPA becomes more financially sound or we leave and ALPA disolves. ALPA cannot exist without the 3-4 major players paying all the bills. It may be easier for the major players to leave. I am not sure what legally can be done to have airlines removed.

OK...We'll go with your analogy...A pain in the ass that is sucking blood out of the host....Still a problem....

 

[buscap]

And I will agree with you about being a blood sucking problem. While I am sure my public math will get scewered, here it goes: Delta pilots contribute roughly $28,550,000 per year(avg. salary $120,000 X 1.95% X 12,200 pilots) to ALPA. It takes about 24,400 regional pilots to equal this(avg. salary $60,000 X 1.95% =$1170. $28,550,000/$1170= 24,401) You guys are getting way the f$$k more than you will contribute in a lifetime. As a matter of fact they should raise your dues. Better yet, kick you out. If we(Majors) can't/won't take back the flying WE OWN that is in OUR sec.1 because of the fear of a lawsuit from a sub-contractor then things must change. Either you leave/kicked out or we do. You leave and ALPA becomes more financially sound or we leave and ALPA disolves. ALPA cannot exist without the 3-4 major players paying all the bills. It may be easier for the major players to leave. I am not sure what legally can be done to have airlines removed.

Something must be wrong with your math, or ALPA would have been out of the regional business years ago. Either our cash or numbers are worth something.

I don't know where our value is, but ALPA is too much of a self serving political animal to be carrying regionals on charity for even one single second.

Maybe we have good quiche at our MEC luncheons???

I don't know!!

 

[PCL_128]

His numbers are correct. A small MEC like CJC costs far more than it brings in, and a large regional like ASA barely breaks even. The majors subsidize everything.

With that said, I completely disagree with his conclusions. ALPA carries smaller airlines that are a drain on the finances because it's better for the entire profession in the long run. No regional can afford to support it's own independent union and be even slightly effective (dues rates would have to be astronomical), so most regionals would end up with no unions at all, putting incredible downward pressure on wages and work rules. In addition, the new pilots hired at the majors would all come from non-union backgrounds, making it very difficult to keep a cohesive union together at the major level after a lot of these non-union pilots are hired. In short, it would be the destruction of our profession. We need to all stick together. Kicking anyone out would be a big mistake.

 

[G2T]

Something must be wrong with your math

The math is fine, it was the ego that influenced the rest of the post.

 

[DoinTime]

Again, the CPZ pilots seem to feel that the reps they have are doing more than a fine job of representing them. Let them have what they want.

None of this revolves around what the CPZ pilots want. Even if it did, how does anyone know what they want when nobody there has been elected to represent them? If the mainline representing the regionals is such a good arrangement then why don't all of the ALPA DCI carriers join up? If the NW MEC thought that this was such a great arrangement then why didn't they make a push years ago to take in PCL and MSA?

 

[PCL_128]

None of this revolves around what the CPZ pilots want.

Which is exactly the problem.

Even if it did, how does anyone know what they want when nobody there has been elected to represent them?

The CPZ pilots voted for the NWA reps that sit on the DAL MEC, so it's fallacy to say that they don't have representation. They just don't have representation in a form that you apparently wan them to have. As far as knowing what they want, ask a few CPZ pilots. I think you'll have a hard time finding any that want to be broken out.

If the mainline representing the regionals is such a good arrangement then why don't all of the ALPA DCI carriers join up?

Sounds good to me.

If the NW MEC thought that this was such a great arrangement then why didn't they make a push years ago to take in PCL and MSA?

PCL and MSA started as independent airlines. CPZ was started as a special entity as part of the NWA concessions. From its birth, it was part of NWA ALPA. That's a bit different than trying to swallow up other MECs that have been independent since their beginnings. But hey, I would love to see everyone as one big happy family, so let's merge every list and create one big MEC!

 

[G2T]

If it's different, it must be bad. I mean, "There's always been a lottery".

http://archaeology.about.com/cs/quotes/qt/quote89.htm

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Which is exactly the problem.



The CPZ pilots voted for the NWA reps that sit on the DAL MEC, so it's fallacy to say that they don't have representation. They just don't have representation in a form that you apparently wan them to have. As far as knowing what they want, ask a few CPZ pilots. I think you'll have a hard time finding any that want to be broken out.



PCL and MSA started as independent airlines. CPZ was started as a special entity as part of the NWA concessions. From its birth, it was part of NWA ALPA. That's a bit different than trying to swallow up other MECs that have been independent since their beginnings. But hey, I would love to see everyone as one big happy family, so let's merge every list and create one big MEC!

Spot on man. I'm right with you on this entire thing, and so are the CPZ guys as well as most of the DL pilot ranks. Unfortunately the DL unionoids at the top have their heads stuck up LM's butt so far that all they can smell are his widget flavored poop.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

PCL,

And I will disagree with you. Ever since bringing in the regionals our contracts have been going down hill. Our money is being used to support airlines that are taking our flying. When we attempt to stop this outsourcing ALPA natl. run around scared that they will get sued. My personal opinion is that the regionals are very ungrateful. Our lending out of our flying has created the majority of thier jobs and our resourced has helped make that job better. Many of them would not have jobs in aviation if not for this. The experience of representing competing interests is a failure. AA does not have to worry everytime they make a decision that they will get sued for dfr. Swa, JB, and currently your airline don't have to worry because you don't have any outsourcing yet. I am not saying that we don't need some limited sub contracting for thin markets or off peak but not the extent we have. Our aviation system would be much more efficient and dare I say profitable with about a quarter of the small sub contracted flying clogging our hubs and airspace. It was a good try to bring them in the fold but their explosive growth and lack of positive contributions to the profession far outweigh thier worth. It is going to come down to them or us. Alpa will have to make a choice. With us they survive, without us they will die. If you think I am being dramatic look at what the loss of lcc did to natls finances.

His numbers are correct. A small MEC like CJC costs far more than it brings in, and a large regional like ASA barely breaks even. The majors subsidize everything.

With that said, I completely disagree with his conclusions. ALPA carries smaller airlines that are a drain on the finances because it's better for the entire profession in the long run. No regional can afford to support it's own independent union and be even slightly effective (dues rates would have to be astronomical), so most regionals would end up with no unions at all, putting incredible downward pressure on wages and work rules. In addition, the new pilots hired at the majors would all come from non-union backgrounds, making it very difficult to keep a cohesive union together at the major level after a lot of these non-union pilots are hired. In short, it would be the destruction of our profession. We need to all stick together. Kicking anyone out would be a big mistake.

 

[PCL_128]

And I will disagree with you. Ever since bringing in the regionals our contracts have been going down hill. Our money is being used to support airlines that are taking our flying.

I don't think it's fair to blame the regional pilots for that. It's our own fault that outsourcing continues to happen, not theirs. They don't get a vote on what happens with our flying, but we do.

When we attempt to stop this outsourcing ALPA natl. run around scared that they will get sued.

That's simply not true. I've never heard an attorney or national officer say anything about being scared of trying to get flying back. The only thing I've heard them say is that it will take immense amounts of bargaining capital to make it happen, meaning that we'll have to sacrifice pay and work rules to accomplish it. There's no doubt that that's true. But whenever MECs think about that, they change their minds and go back to the short-sighted goals of more pay and work rules rather than protecting their jobs. You see, the problem isn't ALPA, the problem is short-sighted leaders on the local level. Time to prioritize and take back our flying, and I suggest taking the regional pilots with it, right onto our lists.

It is going to come down to them or us. Alpa will have to make a choice. With us they survive, without us they will die. If you think I am being dramatic look at what the loss of lcc did to natls finances.

No, you're right about that. The loss of one legacy would mean that ALPA would be harmed extensively. No doubt. But on the other hand, you would be also. I hate to break it to you, but we had an independent union with plenty of our own cash, and it just doesn't work. No matter how much money you have, you just can't make it work like ALPA does. The decades of experience and institutional knowledge just can't be replaced. Leaving ALPA isn't the answer. The answer is working to bring the regional pilots onto our lists, not trying to exclude them.

 

[andyd]

No matter how much money you have, you just can't make it work like ALPA does. The decades of experience and institutional knowledge just can't be replaced. Leaving ALPA isn't the answer. The answer is working to bring the regional pilots onto our lists, not trying to exclude them.

That's stretching the truth a bit and you know it. Maybe an independent union didn't work at Air Tran but they work just fine at SWA and AA. Alpa is not the answer to everything, everywhere, everytime. It would do us GOOD to separate the Majors from the Regionals at Alpa...either go it alone or spin the Regionals off. DAL would be MUCH better off on our own...Alpa know's this and the thought of us doing it scares the sh*t out of them. If Nat'l knows what is in their best interests they best stop wagging the dog on the tail and start addressing concerns of the MAJORS.....starting with the upcomming contracts at UAL, Co and DAL 2012.

 

[PCL_128]

That's stretching the truth a bit and you know it.

Nope.

Maybe an independent union didn't work at Air Tran but they work just fine at SWA and AA.

SWAPA works fine because SWA management is practically benevolent. SWAPA would be an unmitigated disaster dealing with any other kind of management team. As for the APA, they'll be lucky if they get a contract within the next 10 years.

 

[andyd]

Well I for one hope the APA can pull one off and get an industry leading contract as well as re-capture some scoped out flying. On our property the membership is reaching the boiling point when it comes to scope issues. If LM gives up anymore scope and/or if/when that happens if he is not recalled expect to see a successful de-cert drive at DAL. The membership is fed up with the way the current MEC is running things, hopefully the elections taking place right now will begin to shape things for the future in a positve way and we can work constructively within ALPA for much needed change, I feel that this is the best way forward to solving internal and external problems. However, if change does not come from within ALPA then it is time to look elsewhere....IMHO....

 

[DoinTime]

If LM gives up anymore scope and/or if/when that happens if he is not recalled expect to see a successful de-cert drive at DAL.

FYI....LM doesn't call the shots. Your status reps do.

The membership is fed up with the way the current MEC is running things, hopefully the elections taking place right now will begin to shape things for the future in a positve way and we can work constructively within ALPA for much needed change, I feel that this is the best way forward to solving internal and external problems. However, if change does not come from within ALPA then it is time to look elsewhere....IMHO....

Change needs to come from within your pilot group. If your chairman isn't doing the job your status reps need to recall him. If your status reps arent doing the job your pilot group needs to recall them. Its really simple system.

 

[hockeypilot44]

So your a member of the mainline LEC...without seniority numbers....However you slice it, it's a conflict of interest as you are now about to find out...You are going to be jettisoned by a group you put too much faith in.

The same reps that represent you, also represent a much larger group that have seniority numbers....This was doomed from the start....

ALPA keeps trying these "hybrid" type single groups and/or flowthroughs and they ALL turn out badly in the end...Either you are a single group with a single seniority list....or you are separate and should have your own representation that represents you and only you....

I agree with you on this thread. The US Airways' pilots booted ALPA ultimately due to the botched seniority list. This list was botched because active US Airways pilots (Mid-Atlantic) were put below the bottom America West pilot. Mid-Atlantic didn't even exist. It was on the US Airways operating certificate. It was just a way to put active US Airways pilots and a new type on a different contract. The system is broken Joe. I decided that if I was going to stay in this industry, it was going to be at mainline or not at all. That is a risk I took. If I get furloughed so be it, I will never work at a regional again. I have decided to accept the broken system and move on with life.

 

[DoinTime]

I agree with you on this thread. The US Airways' pilots booted ALPA ultimately due to the botched seniority list. This list was botched because active US Airways pilots (Mid-Atlantic) were put below the bottom America West pilot. Mid-Atlantic didn't even exist. It was on the US Airways operating certificate. It was just a way to put active US Airways pilots and a new type on a different contract. The system is broken Joe. I decided that if I was going to stay in this industry, it was going to be at mainline or not at all. That is a risk I took. If I get furloughed so be it, I will never work at a regional again. I have decided to accept the broken system and move on with life.

Are you under the impression that ALPA created the merged USAir seniority list? How can you place blame on ALPA for what a neutral arbitrator decided?

 

[hockeypilot44]

Are you under the impression that ALPA created the merged USAir seniority list? How can you place blame on ALPA for what a neutral arbitrator decided?

I know exactly what happened in the USAir situation. Mid-Atlantic was not an airline. It was a separate contract that covered USAir pilots operating USAir aircraft on the USAir operating certificate. The furloughed USAirways' pilots were allowed to bypass recall to Mid-Atlantic (USAir). This created a situation where junior USAir pilots were active USAir pilots and some senior USAir pilots were still voluntarily furloughed (they didn't want to fly for USAir under a different contract than every other fleet). The so-called neutral arbitrator decided to fix ALPA's mistake by simplifying things and just calling all the MidAtlantic pilots furloughed (even though they were active USAir pilots). So yes, I blame ALPA. The arbitrator was placed in a no win situation so he decided to go with the America West pilots due to the USAir pilots not budging from straight DOH. There will always be winners and losers in mergers. IMHO, anytime two carriers with similar pay scales and aircraft merge (USAir/America West, Delta/Northwest), DOH should be the standard. It might not be fair, but at least there would be a standard.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

There will always be winners and losers in mergers. IMHO, anytime two carriers with similar pay scales and aircraft merge (USAir/America West, Delta/Northwest), DOH should be the standard. It might not be fair, but at least there would be a standard.

Absolutely not.

Merge 2 less than successful airlines like usair/america west, you're going to have a turd of a final product in an SLI no matter what you do.

In no way is DOH anywhere close to an appropriate standard for an SLI.

 

[DoinTime]

I know exactly what happened in the USAir situation. Mid-Atlantic was not an airline. It was a separate contract that covered USAir pilots operating USAir aircraft on the USAir operating certificate. The furloughed USAirways' pilots were allowed to bypass recall to Mid-Atlantic (USAir). This created a situation where junior USAir pilots were active USAir pilots and some senior USAir pilots were still voluntarily furloughed (they didn't want to fly for USAir under a different contract than every other fleet). The so-called neutral arbitrator decided to fix ALPA's mistake by simplifying things and just calling all the MidAtlantic pilots furloughed (even though they were active USAir pilots). So yes, I blame ALPA. The arbitrator was placed in a no win situation so he decided to go with the America West pilots due to the USAir pilots not budging from straight DOH. There will always be winners and losers in mergers. IMHO, anytime two carriers with similar pay scales and aircraft merge (USAir/America West, Delta/Northwest), DOH should be the standard. It might not be fair, but at least there would be a standard.

You point to arbitrator Nicolau's alledgidly unreasonable award and then blame alpa for it like it was their decision. There isn't a standard on merging seniority. There never has been and there will likely never be one. If youre upset about the lack of a standard that you knew didn't exist then I think you are the unreasonable one. You could certainly place some blame on the respective MECs for how ugly this got but ALPA national had nothing to do with that.

 

[JohnDoe]

If LM gives up anymore scope and/or if/when that happens if he is not recalled expect to see a successful de-cert drive at DAL

There is a brilliant strategy. Wait until he does even more damage.

There hasn't been enough?

I can hear it now: "oh, but next time something happens, we'll do something about it. And this time we super-duper really do mean it."

 

[hockeypilot44]

Absolutely not.

Merge 2 less than successful airlines like usair/america west, you're going to have a turd of a final product in an SLI no matter what you do.

In no way is DOH anywhere close to an appropriate standard for an SLI.

You work for Delta right? I would not exactly call NWA and Delta successful. They both filed for bankruptcy just like US Airways did. Delta is doing alright now, but in ten years, our company could be filing for bankruptcy again through no fault of our own. The seniority system is based on DOH within an airline. This should not change in mergers. By not going with straight DOH, every single airline merger will go to arbitration. The majority of these will end badly.

 

[Monster Buck]

Any America West pilots want to comment on that?

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Hockey,

You are a 2007-08 hire at NWA if I am not mistaken so with doh you had very little to lose. As much as I wanted doh not all of our list would have been fair to do it that way. Had we broken the lists down into smaller subsections maybe some parts could have been doh and others relative seniority and some a blend. It would have taken some creative thinking and the most important time. We did not have the luxury of time. The corporate transaction needed to be done while the Rs were in power. Both sides must have felt this way because both dalpa/nwalpa agreed to the method used. Some are happy, some not so happy and some downright livid. I can assure you that there is not a single pilot group in the country that would have wanted doh or for that matter anything other than relative seniority with usair. I am about 55% at DAL 2% better than stand alone. At US using doh I would be 75%+. Big difference. Now take our 88-89 hires. About 36-40% now, doh with US 60%ish. It is easy to say doh when you have lots of longevity(notice I did not say seniority) and the other side has the opposite. All in all I think this merger (despite the latest mishaps and some of our bitching about change) has gone about as well as can be expected. As far as 10 years who knows. Knowing what you know today where would you rather be? Us, Ual, AA etc. It doesn't really matter anyway because the world ends in 2012

You work for Delta right? I would not exactly call NWA and Delta successful. They both filed for bankruptcy just like US Airways did. Delta is doing alright now, but in ten years, our company could be filing for bankruptcy again through no fault of our own. The seniority system is based on DOH within an airline. This should not change in mergers. By not going with straight DOH, every single airline merger will go to arbitration. The majority of these will end badly.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Hockey,

You are a 2007-08 hire at NWA if I am not mistaken so with doh you had very little to lose. As much as I wanted doh not all of our list would have been fair to do it that way. Had we broken the lists down into smaller subsections maybe some parts could have been doh and others relative seniority and some a blend. It would have taken some creative thinking and the most important time. We did not have the luxury of time. The corporate transaction needed to be done while the Rs were in power. Both sides must have felt this way because both dalpa/nwalpa agreed to the method used. Some are happy, some not so happy and some downright livid. I can assure you that there is not a single pilot group in the country that would have wanted doh or for that matter anything other than relative seniority with usair. I am about 55% at DAL 2% better than stand alone. At US using doh I would be 75%+. Big difference. Now take our 88-89 hires. About 36-40% now, doh with US 60%ish. It is easy to say doh when you have lots of longevity(notice I did not say seniority) and the other side has the opposite. All in all I think this merger (despite the latest mishaps and some of our bitching about change) has gone about as well as can be expected. As far as 10 years who knows. Knowing what you know today where would you rather be? Us, Ual, AA etc. It doesn't really matter anyway because the world ends in 2012

DOH would have made me about 50 numbers more senior in our merger. The airline is not my life so I don't care that much. Either way, I'm still junior for a really long time. I still stand by my comment that DOH should have been the norm from day 1 for all mergers of similar airlines. There should have been a national seniority list started years ago in the early eighties.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

DOH would have made me about 50 numbers more senior in our merger. The airline is not my life so I don't care that much. Either way, I'm still junior for a really long time. I still stand by my comment that DOH should have been the norm from day 1 for all mergers of similar airlines. There should have been a national seniority list started years ago in the early eighties.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. That didn't happen in the early eighties, and it's certainly not going to happen now.... DOH and actual seniority are far from being the same thing and is a terrible standard for mergers.

If we had gone DOH, i would have been at least 250 numbers behind where I am now since DAL started hiring so much earlier..but that's long since been gone over and is water under the bridge. The SLI is what it is, and we're not all at each others throats (yet ), which is a far cry from any SLI that i can think of in the past 20 years..