Compass to Seperate from DAL MEC

[G2T]

If it's different, it must be bad. I mean, "There's always been a lottery".

http://archaeology.about.com/cs/quotes/qt/quote89.htm

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Which is exactly the problem.



The CPZ pilots voted for the NWA reps that sit on the DAL MEC, so it's fallacy to say that they don't have representation. They just don't have representation in a form that you apparently wan them to have. As far as knowing what they want, ask a few CPZ pilots. I think you'll have a hard time finding any that want to be broken out.



PCL and MSA started as independent airlines. CPZ was started as a special entity as part of the NWA concessions. From its birth, it was part of NWA ALPA. That's a bit different than trying to swallow up other MECs that have been independent since their beginnings. But hey, I would love to see everyone as one big happy family, so let's merge every list and create one big MEC!

Spot on man. I'm right with you on this entire thing, and so are the CPZ guys as well as most of the DL pilot ranks. Unfortunately the DL unionoids at the top have their heads stuck up LM's butt so far that all they can smell are his widget flavored poop.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

PCL,

And I will disagree with you. Ever since bringing in the regionals our contracts have been going down hill. Our money is being used to support airlines that are taking our flying. When we attempt to stop this outsourcing ALPA natl. run around scared that they will get sued. My personal opinion is that the regionals are very ungrateful. Our lending out of our flying has created the majority of thier jobs and our resourced has helped make that job better. Many of them would not have jobs in aviation if not for this. The experience of representing competing interests is a failure. AA does not have to worry everytime they make a decision that they will get sued for dfr. Swa, JB, and currently your airline don't have to worry because you don't have any outsourcing yet. I am not saying that we don't need some limited sub contracting for thin markets or off peak but not the extent we have. Our aviation system would be much more efficient and dare I say profitable with about a quarter of the small sub contracted flying clogging our hubs and airspace. It was a good try to bring them in the fold but their explosive growth and lack of positive contributions to the profession far outweigh thier worth. It is going to come down to them or us. Alpa will have to make a choice. With us they survive, without us they will die. If you think I am being dramatic look at what the loss of lcc did to natls finances.

His numbers are correct. A small MEC like CJC costs far more than it brings in, and a large regional like ASA barely breaks even. The majors subsidize everything.

With that said, I completely disagree with his conclusions. ALPA carries smaller airlines that are a drain on the finances because it's better for the entire profession in the long run. No regional can afford to support it's own independent union and be even slightly effective (dues rates would have to be astronomical), so most regionals would end up with no unions at all, putting incredible downward pressure on wages and work rules. In addition, the new pilots hired at the majors would all come from non-union backgrounds, making it very difficult to keep a cohesive union together at the major level after a lot of these non-union pilots are hired. In short, it would be the destruction of our profession. We need to all stick together. Kicking anyone out would be a big mistake.

 

[PCL_128]

And I will disagree with you. Ever since bringing in the regionals our contracts have been going down hill. Our money is being used to support airlines that are taking our flying.

I don't think it's fair to blame the regional pilots for that. It's our own fault that outsourcing continues to happen, not theirs. They don't get a vote on what happens with our flying, but we do.

When we attempt to stop this outsourcing ALPA natl. run around scared that they will get sued.

That's simply not true. I've never heard an attorney or national officer say anything about being scared of trying to get flying back. The only thing I've heard them say is that it will take immense amounts of bargaining capital to make it happen, meaning that we'll have to sacrifice pay and work rules to accomplish it. There's no doubt that that's true. But whenever MECs think about that, they change their minds and go back to the short-sighted goals of more pay and work rules rather than protecting their jobs. You see, the problem isn't ALPA, the problem is short-sighted leaders on the local level. Time to prioritize and take back our flying, and I suggest taking the regional pilots with it, right onto our lists.

It is going to come down to them or us. Alpa will have to make a choice. With us they survive, without us they will die. If you think I am being dramatic look at what the loss of lcc did to natls finances.

No, you're right about that. The loss of one legacy would mean that ALPA would be harmed extensively. No doubt. But on the other hand, you would be also. I hate to break it to you, but we had an independent union with plenty of our own cash, and it just doesn't work. No matter how much money you have, you just can't make it work like ALPA does. The decades of experience and institutional knowledge just can't be replaced. Leaving ALPA isn't the answer. The answer is working to bring the regional pilots onto our lists, not trying to exclude them.

 

[andyd]

No matter how much money you have, you just can't make it work like ALPA does. The decades of experience and institutional knowledge just can't be replaced. Leaving ALPA isn't the answer. The answer is working to bring the regional pilots onto our lists, not trying to exclude them.

That's stretching the truth a bit and you know it. Maybe an independent union didn't work at Air Tran but they work just fine at SWA and AA. Alpa is not the answer to everything, everywhere, everytime. It would do us GOOD to separate the Majors from the Regionals at Alpa...either go it alone or spin the Regionals off. DAL would be MUCH better off on our own...Alpa know's this and the thought of us doing it scares the sh*t out of them. If Nat'l knows what is in their best interests they best stop wagging the dog on the tail and start addressing concerns of the MAJORS.....starting with the upcomming contracts at UAL, Co and DAL 2012.

 

[PCL_128]

That's stretching the truth a bit and you know it.

Nope.

Maybe an independent union didn't work at Air Tran but they work just fine at SWA and AA.

SWAPA works fine because SWA management is practically benevolent. SWAPA would be an unmitigated disaster dealing with any other kind of management team. As for the APA, they'll be lucky if they get a contract within the next 10 years.

 

[andyd]

Well I for one hope the APA can pull one off and get an industry leading contract as well as re-capture some scoped out flying. On our property the membership is reaching the boiling point when it comes to scope issues. If LM gives up anymore scope and/or if/when that happens if he is not recalled expect to see a successful de-cert drive at DAL. The membership is fed up with the way the current MEC is running things, hopefully the elections taking place right now will begin to shape things for the future in a positve way and we can work constructively within ALPA for much needed change, I feel that this is the best way forward to solving internal and external problems. However, if change does not come from within ALPA then it is time to look elsewhere....IMHO....

 

[DoinTime]

If LM gives up anymore scope and/or if/when that happens if he is not recalled expect to see a successful de-cert drive at DAL.

FYI....LM doesn't call the shots. Your status reps do.

The membership is fed up with the way the current MEC is running things, hopefully the elections taking place right now will begin to shape things for the future in a positve way and we can work constructively within ALPA for much needed change, I feel that this is the best way forward to solving internal and external problems. However, if change does not come from within ALPA then it is time to look elsewhere....IMHO....

Change needs to come from within your pilot group. If your chairman isn't doing the job your status reps need to recall him. If your status reps arent doing the job your pilot group needs to recall them. Its really simple system.

 

[hockeypilot44]

So your a member of the mainline LEC...without seniority numbers....However you slice it, it's a conflict of interest as you are now about to find out...You are going to be jettisoned by a group you put too much faith in.

The same reps that represent you, also represent a much larger group that have seniority numbers....This was doomed from the start....

ALPA keeps trying these "hybrid" type single groups and/or flowthroughs and they ALL turn out badly in the end...Either you are a single group with a single seniority list....or you are separate and should have your own representation that represents you and only you....

I agree with you on this thread. The US Airways' pilots booted ALPA ultimately due to the botched seniority list. This list was botched because active US Airways pilots (Mid-Atlantic) were put below the bottom America West pilot. Mid-Atlantic didn't even exist. It was on the US Airways operating certificate. It was just a way to put active US Airways pilots and a new type on a different contract. The system is broken Joe. I decided that if I was going to stay in this industry, it was going to be at mainline or not at all. That is a risk I took. If I get furloughed so be it, I will never work at a regional again. I have decided to accept the broken system and move on with life.

 

[DoinTime]

I agree with you on this thread. The US Airways' pilots booted ALPA ultimately due to the botched seniority list. This list was botched because active US Airways pilots (Mid-Atlantic) were put below the bottom America West pilot. Mid-Atlantic didn't even exist. It was on the US Airways operating certificate. It was just a way to put active US Airways pilots and a new type on a different contract. The system is broken Joe. I decided that if I was going to stay in this industry, it was going to be at mainline or not at all. That is a risk I took. If I get furloughed so be it, I will never work at a regional again. I have decided to accept the broken system and move on with life.

Are you under the impression that ALPA created the merged USAir seniority list? How can you place blame on ALPA for what a neutral arbitrator decided?