Compass one step closer

[N2264J]

My airline went bankrupt despite our best efforts to avoid it, and we got hammered...From your perspective, the "benefit" side of that equation is obvious. It makes your career progression simpler. But I hope you understand that the "cost" side is 100% ours. You have no risk, other than the possible erosion of the job at the top end...the place you aspire to be...

Oh yeah, here come the corporate ALPA excuses.

"We're just too busy now to be a union."
"It's just too hard now to act like a union."

The hard times is when you really need a union. The good times are, after all, good. It's called integrity. Any Marines that may be lurking here know what I'm talking about.

Spare me the "plantation mentality" hooey!

Career progression is not the topic. I'm talking about the union's duty of fair representation by not facilitating management's alter ego wet dream and selling out your union "brothers" for your own gain. Those planes your MEC diverted from Pinnacle and Mesaba meant upgrades to Captain, pilots getting off reserve, better/more lines, more bargaining leverage. What's in it for you?The dispersion of flying to multiple MECs/certificates puts downward pressure on everybody's contract including the legacy carriers.

Let me ask you this - are there any "Shiny Jets" at Northwest? Are there any "lifers" at the mainline?

 

[Shrek]

Many GoJet pilots are furloughed mainline pilots - union members at that.

Does that make what they did right?! Nope......

That is ok TSAH is imploding.......

 

[Occam's Razor]

The hard times is when you really need a union. The good times are, after all, good.

Wow! That's profound.

It goes without saying, then, that those who skedaddle during the hard times (we'll calll them "cut-n-runners" to keep it within the vernacular) and seek out lawyers instead of working within the union system lack....what's the word?

Oh yeah..."integrity".

It's called integrity. Any Marines that may be lurking here know what I'm talking about.

"Boo Hoo! That machine gun nest has us pinned down, and I was hoping to make Lance Corporal...I'm gonna sue!"

Yeah...this Marine knows EXACTLY what you're talking abouit!

 

[YourPilotFriend]

It's called operating at the mainline with a regional contract, oh you will get flow through's to the next step, but it will be at first year pay. Eventually every aircraft will have its own contract. With the size gap between aircraft getting narrower, nobody will be able to tell you what a fair value for your contract will be.

 

[snap145]

someone please educate me here....first off...i dont agree with blowjets or the way TSAH has handled this whole scenario, secondly...how is Compass whipsaw.....this is a genuine question not flamebait...we all know that the current business model with the majors simply doesnt work...something has to change....is the answer paying lowly FO's 20 an hour to fly 175's...God I hope not.....but how is Compass whipsaw or in any way like Gojet.....I am correct that it is a wholly owned entity of NWA??? If so, how is it any different from Comair or PSA???????

 

[YourPilotFriend]

someone please educate me here....first off...i dont agree with blowjets or the way TSAH has handled this whole scenario, secondly...how is Compass whipsaw.....this is a genuine question not flamebait...we all know that the current business model with the majors simply doesnt work...something has to change....is the answer paying lowly FO's 20 an hour to fly 175's...God I hope not.....but how is Compass whipsaw or in any way like Gojet.....I am correct that it is a wholly owned entity of NWA??? If so, how is it any different from Comair or PSA???????

Any flying that can be RFP'ed falls under the category of a whipsaw.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I know you said this to make your point and 99% of the time I agree with what you're saying regarding NWA/ALPA stuff...but dude that was harsh. But free speech is a wonderful thing so preach on Occam.:beer:

I think "harsh" is too soft a word. It was intended to be brutal.

Reality can range from serendipitous gain...to brutally unfair loss. The piloting profession hasn't cornered the market on that spectrum. I ache when I see the shenanigans the rulers of the industry have been able to foist on the people who actually provide the transportation in this transportation business. Often they do it with the government's assistance.

Individually or collectively (my preference) we try to counter the forces arrayed against us. Success seems to depend on how well we can exploit our opportunity to make gains when the planets align. Sometimes (and this is the pi$$er) we can't get it done because some among us think that after we've gotten the wagons in a circle, we should shoot inside the circle. (Think RJDC)

That's brutal!

Don't get me wrong, some of the villians in this melodrama reside with the legacies too. They're short-sighted folks who can't see any benefit from compromise. But the true enemies of Brand Scope and other progressive ideas aren't wearing pilot uniforms (RJDC toads notwithstanding), they wear well-tailored business suits. You think Osama bin Laden is an uncaring extremist? Meet "Armani bin Laden"...the CEO of _______ (insert any airline name here).

That's brutal!

I think all of us accept that 99.99% of us have to "pay our dues" somewhere to get to our goal. According to Dr. Jerry Berlin, one of the thing that set us apart as a profession is the fact that 100% of us are goal-oriented, with the ability to focus and compartmentalize amid distractions. If you went to a "regional" airline as a step toward your goal, I believe you did so with a set of qualifications in mind: " ____-hours TT, ____-hours PIC." At that point, you hoped the Legacies would be snarfing-up guys like you, with a logbook full of bona fides. I don't think any pilot ever told the interviewer at a "regionial" that they expected to be flying B747's as part of their employment offer at ASA, CMR, PCL, ARW, etc. [Full Disclosure: I've never worked for a "regional". I did the military thing. So instead of stand-up's to East Podunk for my "dues", I sat in the mud with a PRC-106 on my back, picking ticks off my scrotum]

Brutal?

Please forgive my brutality. I'm one of the Legacy guys trying to convince my MEC that Single-Carrier Status (a PID) with Mesaba would be a good step toward Brand Scope...and that it would have a benefit for us. That makes it a little tough to take barbs from some who don't think I care.

 

[FOrever85]

Sorry to bring this post to a more civil level,

But Occam can you give me a little insight into the discussions your union has had in regards to Mesaba opertating the 36 CRJ's.

Do you think they (Your union) are picking this fight as bargaining for more pay for your members, or are they really fighting this out of principal?

Is your union trying to get back down to one NWA owned subsidairy?

If so, are they talking flowthrough for XJ? (I know, it is dumb to even talk about)

I was under the impression that if you are not a NWA furloghee, there is no flowthrough at Compass. True/False

I have heard our union's take, what's yours.

Thanks for your time,

P.S are your initials M.I.
If you want to pm a response that would work too.

 

[Occam's Razor]

But Occam can you give me a little insight into the discussions your union has had in regards to Mesaba opertating the 36 CRJ's.

We're grieving it. The intent was for MSA to be able to operate replacements for the Avros, but only as a separate company. The purchase of MSA means management must comply with the rest of our Section 1...which requires a flow-thru for the wholly-owned operator of the larger RJ's, and a couple of other minor items. I think the grievance has merit, and filing it will bring our management to the table.

Do you think they (Your union) are picking this fight as bargaining for more pay for your members, or are they really fighting this out of principal?

85% of the former...10% of the latter...5% to show the rank-and-file they're not asleep

Is your union trying to get back down to one NWA owned subsidairy?

Don't think so, but I can't say for sure. I was VERY familiar with the plan a few years ago...but Chapter 11 put us in a pure defensive position. The number of wholly-owned Airlinks is being viewed as a short-term situation. I don't think it's a secret that management's plan is to "flip" the Airlinks it buys.

If so, are they talking flowthrough for XJ? (I know, it is dumb to even talk about)

Not dumb! The Negotiators claim it's REQUIRED under our Scope!

My push to my reps has been to file a PID and start list integration. I think it's a good time because management is juggling a lot of balls right now, and I think they're vulnerable to a process they can't control that has long-term financial implications to them. Barring that, I think a Flow Thru (simliar to the one we negotiated several years ago) would be the minimum we could get. Keep in mind that deal failed because the MSA MEC (correctly) chose not to agree to a deal that allowed "cherry picking" by NWA management.

I was under the impression that if you are not a NWA furloghee, there is no flowthrough at Compass. True/False

The contract isn't settled. I talked to the Compass Contract team last week and they indicated full flow-thru could be part of the finished deal. You are correct that the contractual flow-thru only applies to NWA furloughees who might opt for Compass.

 

[DoinTime]

The purchase of MSA means management must comply with the rest of our Section 1...which requires a flow-thru for the wholly-owned operator of the larger RJ's, and a couple of other minor items.

Not actually a flow thru but a flow back. The other "minor" items encompass nearly all of the financial terms of the contract. Mesaba pilots would be extreamly foolish to agree to to be the "SJET" carrier.

Do you think they (Your union) are picking this fight as bargaining for more pay for your members, or are they really fighting this out of principal?

This fight isn't being "picked." It is a clear contract violation. If NWALPA chose not to address it they would be open for a duty of representation lawsuit from their membership.

 

[TAWS]

You think Osama bin Laden is an uncaring extremist? Meet "Armani bin Laden"...the CEO of _______ (insert any airline name here).

.

Occam - THE wittiest guy on the board!!

 

[JoeMerchant]

Correct.

1 . YOU don't have squat! I have Compass. It is my issue, and as a Northwest pilot, I am accountable for Compass existing. If it bothers you, I hope you get over it soon.
2. Brand Scope is a function of priorities. Personally, I think it's important, but would put it after a few other important items in my contract.

At least your honest now. This is why "brand scope" will never work. The mainline groups hold the chips, and they aren't willing to anty them up for another group.

I do have "squat". I have a job, and I have a union that is supposed to represent me fairly. If my union decides that "your" issue isn't "my" issue, then we will have a court decide if the union is handling it's DFR duties.

You see Occam, I have lost faith in ALPA, and I don't expect "squat" from ALPA. The burden is on people like YOU to prove me wrong. The longer ALPA fails, the longer I can say "I told you so"......

 

[JoeMerchant]

The RJDC lawyers told us your last check bounced and they were facing a crisis making their yacht payments...so we agreed to create MORE RJ operators to help 'em out.

The President of ALPA says both of our checks are clearing..... and he is making his yacht payment just fine.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Brand Scope was all about saving whats left of this industry. Unfortunatley, because of guys like you who already have it good, future generations will lose out.

"Brand scope" was snake oil and ya'll bought hook line and sinker.....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I beg to differ there, Joe. I grant you there are some furloughed mainline pilots at GoJet, but they are most certainly not the majority nor do they exist in such numbers to be called "many". ALPA members are few and far between in the GoJet ranks.

GoJet was created because of mainline scope at American. It was the only way to fly 70 seaters... required a different certificate. ALPA had the chance to bargain for a single group, but the deal was enough and ALPA didn't want to pay for the single group (sound familiar)

There are more mainline pilots at GoJets than anyone really wants to admit... another one of those dirty little ALPA secrets.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Does that make what they did right?! Nope......

That is ok TSAH is imploding.......

The fact is, GoJets is no different than Compass or any other alter-ego carrier, except that it doesn't pay ALPA dues. ALPA is much harder on non-union alter-ego carriers than it is on non-union alter-ego carriers. ALPA doen't really mind whipsaw as long as the whips pay for the privledge...

 

[JoeMerchant]

Brutal?

Please forgive my brutality. I'm one of the Legacy guys trying to convince my MEC that Single-Carrier Status (a PID) with Mesaba would be a good step toward Brand Scope...and that it would have a benefit for us. That makes it a little tough to take barbs from some who don't think I care.

Please forgive us RJDC supporting sceptics, but all of us RJDCers supported the ASA/CMR/DAL PID in 2000 as a way to put the genie back in the bottle. However the DAL MEC and the ALPA EC didn't think it was appropriate. Forgive us if we are sceptics, but well you know the saying... "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me...."

 

[JoeMerchant]

My push to my reps has been to file a PID and start list integration. I think it's a good time because management is juggling a lot of balls right now, and I think they're vulnerable to a process they can't control that has long-term financial implications to them. Barring that, I think a Flow Thru (simliar to the one we negotiated several years ago) would be the minimum we could get. Keep in mind that deal failed because the MSA MEC (correctly) chose not to agree to a deal that allowed "cherry picking" by NWA management.

Good luck, we tried that at ASA/CMR/DAL back in 2000... as you know it failed. It wasn't the fault of the "little guys".......

 

[Occam's Razor]

At least your honest now. This is why "brand scope" will never work. The mainline groups hold the chips, and they aren't willing to anty them up for another group.

Because pilots prioritize their own needs before others? Maybe you disagree with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs...but I doubt it.

You're on the "I want" side of the dance hall. I expect your perspective to be a little different than the "I got" side, but I'm still amused when you RJDC acolytes think problems with getting Brand Scope are due to some sinister source...and not basic human nature.

You want the "chips" because you've self-actualized that you're strong enough...you're good enough...and doggone it!...people like you! You are incapable of comprehending any of the risk involved for anyone else, and are unwilling to compromise. That makes your actions even more stupid than those on the other side who harbor mistrust of your position!

I do have "squat". I have a job, and I have a union that is supposed to represent me fairly. If my union decides that "your" issue isn't "my" issue, then we will have a court decide if the union is handling it's DFR duties.

The majority of members of ALPA should not decide the proper course of action or policy for the Association?

Got it!

It's got a despotic tang to it, but I understand your position. You don't like decisions by the body that are contrary to a belief that you've really, really thought long and hard about...so naturallyh, the only logical recourse is to sue.

You see Occam, I have lost faith in ALPA, and I don't expect "squat" from ALPA.

Why didn't you say that in the first place?

The burden is on people like YOU to prove me wrong. The longer ALPA fails, the longer I can say "I told you so"......

Nah, the burden is on YOU to keep sending checks to the lawyers humping your leg for more fees. And when the judge throws out the last of your frivolous allegations (he's tossed out almost all of them already, right?), I promise to smirk only a little, and never before noon.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Good luck, we tried that at ASA/CMR/DAL back in 2000... as you know it failed. It wasn't the fault of the "little guys".......

I was there.

You didn't listen to me.

I kept whispering, "Dude! Tic Tac!"