Compass one step closer

[ImbracableCrunk]

Motion to close. . .

 

[Shaheen]

Motion to close. . .

I second that!

 

[Schwanker]

I can't believe that hasn't been fixed. That alone would give me so much heartburn I'd have to go on sick leave.

Turbo

You're not the only one. Sick calls are through the roof causing crew planning real headaches. Now they're panicking trying to speed up the recall and training process. Always a step behind!

 

[Shaheen]

Motion to close. . .

It's not working, bud!

 

[PCL_128]

Occam, you keep talking about some sort of "middle-ground" or "compromise" on the Brand Scope/integration issue, but I'm not exactly sure what you're thinking of. What ideas do you have? I can't seem to think of a way that the mainline guys won't have to take massive hits in the short-term to make either happen.

 

[Shrek]

HUH ?!

READ IT AGAIN JOE...........Alpa is much harder on non-union carriers as they are against NON-UNION CARRIERS???

Ignorant. Joe, I can respect any argument but if you aren't even intelligent enough to put forth a coherent thought I am done with you..........

Flame on-

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam, you keep talking about some sort of "middle-ground" or "compromise" on the Brand Scope/integration issue, but I'm not exactly sure what you're thinking of. What ideas do you have? I can't seem to think of a way that the mainline guys won't have to take massive hits in the short-term to make either happen.

Check PM.

The smug geniuses that have it all figured out and only blame others are gonna have to figure it out on their own.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Occam,

Don't tease the rest of us. Give us your thoughts.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam,

Don't tease the rest of us. Give us your thoughts.

Dood! I've been PM'ing my butt off!

We'll let 'em stew for a while...

 

[N2264J]

We'll let 'em stew for a while...

While you're all stewing in your own juices of intrigue, PM Occum and ask him
if Eastern "formed" Continental.

When I posted ALPA's old alter ego policy a few days ago, he dismissed it by parsing the term "form" as in: Mesaba was already in existence so Northwest management and shareholders could not have "formed" it.

I think he's being intellectually disingenuous, an annoying and common characteristic of ALPA leadership.

ALPA learned nothing from Lorenzo.

 

[Occam's Razor]

XJohX - Check your PM.

N2264J - "Feed your head"

 

[dashtrasher]

Back to the unhijacked version of this thread.. Compass just had its first day of proving runs, believe nothing awful happen that would stop it from postponing the second day which I believe is on Wednesday.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Check PM.

The smug geniuses that have it all figured out and only blame others are gonna have to figure it out on their own.

No some of you are just late to the party. You are proposing a PID for NWA/Mesaba. ASA and CMR proposed that in 2000. Better late than never I suppose...

By the way, after you mistakenly stated that Dan was a status rep. during the PID, you went on to say that Dan and the others failed to compromise. What did you mean by that? ALPA merger policy is pretty straight forward... were you implying that there should have been a "pre-nup"? If so, why?

 

[Occam's Razor]

No some of you are just late to the party. You are proposing a PID for NWA/Mesaba. ASA and CMR proposed that in 2000. Better late than never I suppose...

Spare me!

The PID cabal in 2000 didn't propose anything. They demanded it! There's a difference.

By the way, after you mistakenly stated that Dan was a status rep. during the PID,

You're right, I did. Dan was merely the Spokesmodel, and Point Man. The rest of the gang simply nodded.

you went on to say that Dan and the others failed to compromise. What did you mean by that?

Um, "compromise" means to modify your demands to acheive consensus or approval. The PID boys took a position of all-or-nothing. I think they did it, in part, because they recognized that compromising on the PID would weaken their position if it happened...and would require them to pay part of the cost to make it happen. They were totally unwilling to do that!

ALPA merger policy is pretty straight forward...

AFTER there is a merger. Just like "hot chicks" are preferred to "un-hot chicks"...the standard for what constitutes a "hot chick" tends to vary from guy to guy. Likewise, the perspective the PID cabal took require them to convince others (Read: "everybody else") that it was a true merger.

were you implying that there should have been a "pre-nup"? If so, why?

Here's your only break from me: Rather than pouncing on you for posing a stupid question ("Duh! You do a pre-nup if the failure to do one means you don't get the deal!"), I'll be nice.

A compromise was/is essential because there is a tremendous cost for the mainline pilots, both in near-term quids and direct costs at the table, and from the long-term impact of eliminating "strata" between the integrated groups. In the case of CMR/ASA in 2000, the PID cabal offered nothing to offset or mitigate those costs.

DAL management would be losing a valuable weapon in any such integration: The Whipsaw. How much is that worth to them? Tough to say, but would have been quickly quantified at the negotiating table. Direct costs include the contract. At the time, the number used was North of $800-million in 2000 dollars. That's a minimum! Repeat, minimum!

If you'd like to do your own math, blend the DAL pay formula (lift, range, speed) from Section 4 for the aircraft side CMR/ASA would bring, then add the cost (at the time) of the DB Pension obligation. Then multiply that by the number of pilots, and calculate the whole thing over a nominal 4-year contract term. ALPA E&FA put it at over $1-billion...but they used a "snap integration", instead of something that occured over time.

Now, put a large group of pilots making under $40/hour on the same list as a large group of pilots making over $200/hour, and tell me where the pressure will be in the next contract. Will it be to ensure the top-paid folks get healthy raises...or to pull the lower-paid folks up? (If that hypothetical is difficult, just look at the #1 negotiating priority at NWA during the '98 strike: The b-scale. It was the #1 issue for the most senior pilots, even though they'd never been on a b-scale! Think about that.)

There were compromises suggested by those of us who had standing with both pilot groups who were attempting to mediate some sort of deal...but the PID cabal would have none of it. During the 2001 CMR strike I spent a lot of time trying to convince Dan that his group should start developing compromise proposals in case an opportunity arose to do something about an integration.

Unfortunately, he has a pornographic memory (simliar to a photographic memory, except you visualize anything anybody does as something that screws you), and persisted with his all-or-nothing demagoguery.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Check PM.

The smug geniuses that have it all figured out and only blame others are gonna have to figure it out on their own.

I think you will realize there is no compromise that will rebuild brand scope. Unless you have some amazing plan, only supply and demand will dictate that future.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

And on the mean time the "brand" keeps flying 50 seats with about $75/H with low time crews while there are experienced crews on the street still.

I don't know the chances of Brand Scope, but I'm a firm believer that bringing all pilots within an organization on one list, is the only way forward

 

[Occam's Razor]

And on the mean time the "brand" keeps flying 50 seats with about $75/H with low time crews while there are experienced crews on the street still.

I don't know the chances of Brand Scope, but I'm a firm believer that bringing all pilots within an organization on one list, is the only way forward

Sounds like an elegantly simple solution. Unfortunately, the problem is complex.

I shouldn't be the only one who has to open a check book to make it happen.

 

[DoinTime]

I shouldn't be the only one who has to open a check book to make it happen.

Unfortunately, only the group that controls the brand can make brand scope work. You shouldn't be the only that has to pay for it but you are the only one who can.

Duane Worth's brand scope initiative failed because the vast majority of pilots are to self centered to understand the destructive repercussions of their selfish ways.

 

[Occam's Razor]

It is not selfish to protect yourself from those that would do your job for less, just as it's not selfish to have locks on your doors. Are those that would take your job or take your property "selfish" for doing it?

I'd be willing to pay my share of the bill, but somebody has to help me out. The way the formula works out from my perspective is that I have to pay 100% of the cost for about 20% of the benefit. Those that would receive 80% of the benefit would pay none of the cost.

The strata existed long before there was such a thing as Scope, and I have no pretensions that being where I am right now was my "birthright". It wasn't...but I also expect others that aspire to be where I am to understand that making me pay the full tab to get them here ain't their birthright either.

I think Duane's efforts failed because we prioritize locally. The closest Legacy MEC to getting there was NWA, and we let Jeff Carlson talk us out of getting our nose under the tent flap.

 

[DoinTime]

It is not selfish to protect yourself from those that would do your job for less, just as it's not selfish to have locks on your doors. Are those that would take your job or take your property "selfish" for doing it?

This statement illustrates your disconnect Occam. You seem to veiw pilots that don't work at your company as predators that you need to be guarded against. What you need to be guarded against is yourselves and your management group. Your systematic pawning off of your domestic turbojet fleet is whats created the threat to your job security and crippled your barganing leverage.

When the regional "plan" is done at NWA towards the end of 2008 over half of the domestic NWA flying will be outsourced. NWA will be in a great position to work through any kind of strike at mainline.

I'd be willing to pay my share of the bill, but somebody has to help me out. The way the formula works out from my perspective is that I have to pay 100% of the cost for about 20% of the benefit. Those that would receive 80% of the benefit would pay none of the cost.

Here is the selfishness I speek of. Its well established that only one pilot group in any brand has the ability to make this work. If the regional pilots could do something to help make this work they would.

The strata existed long before there was such a thing as Scope, and I have no pretensions that being where I am right now was my "birthright". It wasn't...but I also expect others that aspire to be where I am to understand that making me pay the full tab to get them here ain't their birthright either.

Many pilot groups have made sacrafices for the profession that in many cases cost them their careers (Eastern comes right to mind). Modern mainline pilots pilfer from the foundations of this once proud profession to fund their third vacation home.

I think Duane's efforts failed because we prioritize locally. The closest Legacy MEC to getting there was NWA, and we let Jeff Carlson talk us out of getting our nose under the tent flap.

The NWA and DAL pilot groups both had everything it took to execute brand scope in their contracts just a few short years ago. Its gone now.

 

[Occam's Razor]

You seem to veiw pilots that don't work at your company as predators that you need to be guarded against. What you need to be guarded against is yourselves and your management group. Your systematic pawning off of your domestic turbojet fleet is whats created the threat to your job security and crippled your barganing leverage.

That's rich! Scope was created to protect pilot groups from their managements...no question, but to suggest that mainline pilots are responsible for your willingness to encroach on traditional mainline flying because a shiny jet is dangled in front of you is a ridiculous warping of reality.

Would NWA management have any leverage if you refused to do the flying?

Can pilots be predators? Can we flashback to a couple of years ago and discuss Big Sky? Did that cause you any concern? Was there any concern that another pilot group might be willing to do some of your traditional flying for less?

No raindrop thinks it's responsible for the flood.

Our management recognized that there was a force out there that could be used as leverage against mainline pilots. The force was the willingness of those starting out in the business to fly something bigger/faster...and to do it for less than "the formula". It was a predictable behavior and managments recognized it.

In the "good ol' days" it was never a threat. There was not a large segment of flying being done in small airliners. After 1978, smaller aircraft serving smaller cities became the standard. To hold down CASM, the owners of those small "commuters" used the force to staff their airlines. They paid pilots squat because pilots were willing to do it to pay their dues to get to (wait for it...) the Majors!

Cute little prop planes were not seen as a threat to mainline pilots because of the demarcation, in terms of size and numbers, was clear.

Then someone hung jets on those little airplanes and made them a bit bigger...

That action didn't change the situation at the mainlines. It was still a job the "commuter" pilots aspired to because it paid well, and had good work rules and benefits. But the lure of earning more in cooler airplanes while filling the logbook exploited the force, and the blame for that...of course!...lies with the mainline guys for not countering the predictable behavior of those pilots by not buying them a full-fare ticket instead of having them go space-available.

Got it!

When the regional "plan" is done at NWA towards the end of 2008 over half of the domestic NWA flying will be outsourced. NWA will be in a great position to work through any kind of strike at mainline.

If you're willing to be a scab, I suppose you could be right. Since I know the longterm business plan at NWA, I'm not sure it's quite the threat you think it is...but it's illuminating to see you define your role in such an event.

"May the force be with you!"

Here is the selfishness I speek of. Its well established that only one pilot group in any brand has the ability to make this work. If the regional pilots could do something to help make this work they would.

You mean like help pay for it? That'd be nice. In a previous post I outlined the costs of making it happen. What would you be willing to do to make it happen?

Many pilot groups have made sacrafices for the profession that in many cases cost them their careers (Eastern comes right to mind). Modern mainline pilots pilfer from the foundations of this once proud profession to fund their third vacation home.

Man, those stereotypes are real timesavers, aren't they? No intellectual straining. No bothersome connection with reality. No uncomfortable requirement to view fellow pilots as people who just might have been in your shoes. No sir! All you gotta do it villify 'em. Just a few lines ago you accused me of generalizing about Airlink pilots by viewing them as "predators". That was baaaaaad! But it's cool if you generalize about me.

The NWA and DAL pilot groups both had everything it took to execute brand scope in their contracts just a few short years ago. Its gone now.

Perhaps. I think there are opportunites for some significant changes, but it would require compromise...and victims seldom do that.

 

[DoinTime]

Just keep blaming everyone else for your problems. The manning forces in effect on this industry have been unchanged since the 1930's. The differences between today and the pre-deregulation airline industry are the executives, the lawyers, and the efficiencies of modern aircraft.

Its apparent (at least from what you say) that the NWA pilot group pinned their hopes on people unrelated to their cause to refuse available jobs that within a few years can provide a comfortable living. I applaud your service in the armed forces but the civilian career track to a retirement job is not even remotely comparable to your experiences. Reenlisting is not an option for most of us pilots in a bad job market.

 

[TurboAWD]

That's rich! Scope was created to protect pilot groups from their managements...no question, but to suggest that mainline pilots are responsible for your willingness to encroach on traditional mainline flying because a shiny jet is dangled in front of you is a ridiculous warping of reality.

Would NWA management have any leverage if you refused to do the flying?

Jesus man, pull your head out of your butt. Refuse to do the flying? You guys didn't have the nerve to stand up to protect your scope, and you want us to "refuse" flying you voted away? Get a grip.

9E/XJ pilots can't stop the over-sized RJs. I know many if not most of us were hoping you would hold on to them. You could have. YOU did not. So STFU. Now I'm the one potentially stuck flying a DC9 size airplane at a airline that gets to whipsaw its labor against virtually every other small jet operator in the industry.

Imagine if when NWA purchased the 787 they could say to you: "well, we'd like to have you guys fly it, but the USAir guys are willing to fly it for us at only $120/hr in the left seat. What can you offer us?" Try negotiating in that environment.

Turbo

 

[Occam's Razor]

Just keep blaming everyone else for your problems.

Excuse me? I've point out some other factors that many (including, apparently, you) choose to ignore.

I understand my "problems", but you're gonna have to understand that I can actually live without Brand Scope, because I've done a cost-benefit analysis. As cold-blooded as it sounds, I recognize where I am in the strata...what I have...and what I'd have to give up to get you right here with me. It's a lot.

I asked you tell me what you'd be willing to do to pay some of the cost. Any progress on that? (If you determine it's nothing, then the issue is settled)

The manning forces in effect on this industry have been unchanged since the 1930's.

Wrong. Up until the 1980's, the vast majority (over 80%) of pilots hired by the Major airlines came exclusively from the military. Now, it's about 33%. That's a signfiicant change!

The differences between today and the pre-deregulation airline industry are the executives, the lawyers, and the efficiencies of modern aircraft.

Thanks for re-stating my previous post. Add the shift in the source for most pilots hired, and you'll be in the zone.

Its apparent (at least from what you say) that the NWA pilot group pinned their hopes on people unrelated to their cause to refuse available jobs that within a few years can provide a comfortable living.

If it's a "comfortable living" then I won't see you across the table when I do interviews?

NWA pilots, along with other Legacy pilots, gained a lot of Scope when we had the leverage. Then we lost a lot when management had the leverage. I'm predicting we'll gain Scope when we regain leverage. (See the way it works?) In the case of a PID with MSA right now, I think it's worthwhile to try to create our own leverage. The only way that's gonna happen, however, is if the follow-on costs are shared. Absent that, I recommend you wear the blue tie.

I applaud your service in the armed forces but the civilian career track to a retirement job is not even remotely comparable to your experiences. Reenlisting is not an option for most of us pilots in a bad job market.

[WARNING! The following questions have been
deemed "brutal" by previous readers!]
​

Then why didn't you go in the military like me? Or just skip MSA and go straight to NWA?

We both know the answer to those. You went to MSA because it represented a reasonable opportunity for you to obtain the BFOQ's for my job. Not a guarantee or a promise...an opportunity. At some point you probably figured out that it ain't always who you are or what you are, or even how good you are. Often it's just when you are.

Both of us also know that we'd like to change that as much as we can. Hopefully, you understand there is a cost to making that change happen. How much of that cost are you willing to pay?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Jesus man, pull your head out of your butt. Refuse to do the flying? You guys didn't have the nerve to stand up to protect your scope, and you want us to "refuse" flying you voted away? Get a grip.

Well, you know....Yikes!...hang on!...my dog just ate my sandwich! I left the sandwich within reach, and my dog snarffed it right up! Geez! I guess that's my fault. I never shoulda left something my dog wanted right there where he could reach it. Lesson learned: Dogs are predictable and will snarff sandwiches if you leave them unprotected.

9E/XJ pilots can't stop the over-sized RJs.

Spot? That you?

I know many if not most of us were hoping you would hold on to them.

Yes, I saw all the glum faces faces of the depressed MSA pilots on their way to Avro training. It was sad to watch...

You could have. YOU did not. So STFU.

I will....but only if you promise to STFT (Stay The F#&k There)

Deal?

Now I'm the one potentially stuck flying a DC9 size airplane at a airline that gets to whipsaw its labor against virtually every other small jet operator in the industry.

I got an idea! Why don't we change that? It'll cost you, though. Not nearly as much as it'll cost me...but it WILL cost you. You in?

Imagine if when NWA purchased the 787 they could say to you: "well, we'd like to have you guys fly it, but the USAir guys are willing to fly it for us at only $120/hr in the left seat. What can you offer us?" Try negotiating in that environment.

Been there...done that. It's called wet lease, code-share, and alliances. See my Section 1.

Instead of clipping just a portion of my post, go back and see if you can read the entire thing for comprehension. I'm on your side, but I can't do it alone. If you want to help, then start demonstrating that you understand the i$$ue$ from my perspective.

If you can't, you wear the red tie (so I can tell you from DoinTime)

 

[Beetle007]

Imagine if when NWA purchased the 787 they could say to you: "well, we'd like to have you guys fly it, but the USAir guys are willing to fly it for us at only $120/hr in the left seat. What can you offer us?" Try negotiating in that environment.
Turbo

Unfortunantly, that is EXACTLY the environment in which NWA pilots were negotiating. LCCs purchased A320s and 737s and had pilots WILLING to work for a lot less than NWA pilots.

I remember a meeting when the NWA CEO said "Frontier and other LCC pilots are willing to fly for a lot less, so why should I pay you more". Unfortunantly, he was right.

An A320 captain at NWA used to top out around 220K and an A320 First Officer used to top out at around 130K. Jetblue pilots offered to work for half those wages. Now Skybus pilots appear to be willing to work for half of what Jetblue pilots make. I will find it Ironic if a Jeblue pilot ever gets mad at a Skybus Captain for their willingness to work for 60ish an hour.

 

[jetflier]

Unfortunantly, that is EXACTLY the environment in which NWA pilots were negotiating. LCCs purchased A320s and 737s and had pilots WILLING to work for a lot less than NWA pilots.

I remember a meeting when the NWA CEO said "Frontier and other LCC pilots are willing to fly for a lot less, so why should I pay you more". Unfortunantly, he was right.

An A320 captain at NWA used to top out around 220K and an A320 First Officer used to top out at around 130K. Jetblue pilots offered to work for half those wages. Now Skybus pilots appear to be willing to work for half of what Jetblue pilots make. I will find it Ironic if a Jeblue pilot ever gets mad at a Skybus Captain for their willingness to work for 60ish an hour.

Hey Beetle,

Right on, the cycle repeats itself, and now we have Pinnacle canceling 1000 flights because of a lack of pilots, qualified pilots. Rumor has it that they are recruiting very low time timers, and soon will run out of them as well.

Some regionals are seeking pilot apps with just 200 hours,....real safe to put your family on.

Seems like the industry is hitting bottom.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

It's not that a 200hr pilot is unsafe, it's that the environment is unsafe to have a 200 hr pilot. This business will fall apart from the ground up, and that's the biggest threat to mainline pilots. Management will bail out on their golden parachutes.

 

[TurboAWD]

I got an idea! Why don't we change that? It'll cost you, though. Not nearly as much as it'll cost me...but it WILL cost you. You in?

Yes.

Turbo

 

[TurboAWD]

I remember a meeting when the NWA CEO said "Frontier and other LCC pilots are willing to fly for a lot less, so why should I pay you more".

...

I will find it Ironic if a Jeblue pilot ever gets mad at a Skybus Captain for their willingness to work for 60ish an hour.

You know something ironic? When the latest NWA deal was signed, it put NWA A330 CA pay at about the same as F9 A319. I guess mgmt did a REALLY good job convincing you needed to "compete" with them.

As for JB, take a look at the NW 190 FO pay, and then look at the JB 190 FO pay. Ouch. Hope they don't deny you the jumpseat.

I understand the crappy situation you guys were in, just drop the holier-than-thou attitude. You proved you were only human.

Turbo