Compass one step closer

[ImbracableCrunk]

Motion to close. . .

 

[Shaheen]

Motion to close. . .

I second that!

 

[Schwanker]

I can't believe that hasn't been fixed. That alone would give me so much heartburn I'd have to go on sick leave.

Turbo

You're not the only one. Sick calls are through the roof causing crew planning real headaches. Now they're panicking trying to speed up the recall and training process. Always a step behind!

 

[Shaheen]

Motion to close. . .

It's not working, bud!

 

[PCL_128]

Occam, you keep talking about some sort of "middle-ground" or "compromise" on the Brand Scope/integration issue, but I'm not exactly sure what you're thinking of. What ideas do you have? I can't seem to think of a way that the mainline guys won't have to take massive hits in the short-term to make either happen.

 

[Shrek]

HUH ?!

READ IT AGAIN JOE...........Alpa is much harder on non-union carriers as they are against NON-UNION CARRIERS???

Ignorant. Joe, I can respect any argument but if you aren't even intelligent enough to put forth a coherent thought I am done with you..........

Flame on-

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam, you keep talking about some sort of "middle-ground" or "compromise" on the Brand Scope/integration issue, but I'm not exactly sure what you're thinking of. What ideas do you have? I can't seem to think of a way that the mainline guys won't have to take massive hits in the short-term to make either happen.

Check PM.

The smug geniuses that have it all figured out and only blame others are gonna have to figure it out on their own.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Occam,

Don't tease the rest of us. Give us your thoughts.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam,

Don't tease the rest of us. Give us your thoughts.

Dood! I've been PM'ing my butt off!

We'll let 'em stew for a while...

 

[N2264J]

We'll let 'em stew for a while...

While you're all stewing in your own juices of intrigue, PM Occum and ask him
if Eastern "formed" Continental.

When I posted ALPA's old alter ego policy a few days ago, he dismissed it by parsing the term "form" as in: Mesaba was already in existence so Northwest management and shareholders could not have "formed" it.

I think he's being intellectually disingenuous, an annoying and common characteristic of ALPA leadership.

ALPA learned nothing from Lorenzo.

 

[Occam's Razor]

XJohX - Check your PM.

N2264J - "Feed your head"

 

[dashtrasher]

Back to the unhijacked version of this thread.. Compass just had its first day of proving runs, believe nothing awful happen that would stop it from postponing the second day which I believe is on Wednesday.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Check PM.

The smug geniuses that have it all figured out and only blame others are gonna have to figure it out on their own.

No some of you are just late to the party. You are proposing a PID for NWA/Mesaba. ASA and CMR proposed that in 2000. Better late than never I suppose...

By the way, after you mistakenly stated that Dan was a status rep. during the PID, you went on to say that Dan and the others failed to compromise. What did you mean by that? ALPA merger policy is pretty straight forward... were you implying that there should have been a "pre-nup"? If so, why?

 

[Occam's Razor]

No some of you are just late to the party. You are proposing a PID for NWA/Mesaba. ASA and CMR proposed that in 2000. Better late than never I suppose...

Spare me!

The PID cabal in 2000 didn't propose anything. They demanded it! There's a difference.

By the way, after you mistakenly stated that Dan was a status rep. during the PID,

You're right, I did. Dan was merely the Spokesmodel, and Point Man. The rest of the gang simply nodded.

you went on to say that Dan and the others failed to compromise. What did you mean by that?

Um, "compromise" means to modify your demands to acheive consensus or approval. The PID boys took a position of all-or-nothing. I think they did it, in part, because they recognized that compromising on the PID would weaken their position if it happened...and would require them to pay part of the cost to make it happen. They were totally unwilling to do that!

ALPA merger policy is pretty straight forward...

AFTER there is a merger. Just like "hot chicks" are preferred to "un-hot chicks"...the standard for what constitutes a "hot chick" tends to vary from guy to guy. Likewise, the perspective the PID cabal took require them to convince others (Read: "everybody else") that it was a true merger.

were you implying that there should have been a "pre-nup"? If so, why?

Here's your only break from me: Rather than pouncing on you for posing a stupid question ("Duh! You do a pre-nup if the failure to do one means you don't get the deal!"), I'll be nice.

A compromise was/is essential because there is a tremendous cost for the mainline pilots, both in near-term quids and direct costs at the table, and from the long-term impact of eliminating "strata" between the integrated groups. In the case of CMR/ASA in 2000, the PID cabal offered nothing to offset or mitigate those costs.

DAL management would be losing a valuable weapon in any such integration: The Whipsaw. How much is that worth to them? Tough to say, but would have been quickly quantified at the negotiating table. Direct costs include the contract. At the time, the number used was North of $800-million in 2000 dollars. That's a minimum! Repeat, minimum!

If you'd like to do your own math, blend the DAL pay formula (lift, range, speed) from Section 4 for the aircraft side CMR/ASA would bring, then add the cost (at the time) of the DB Pension obligation. Then multiply that by the number of pilots, and calculate the whole thing over a nominal 4-year contract term. ALPA E&FA put it at over $1-billion...but they used a "snap integration", instead of something that occured over time.

Now, put a large group of pilots making under $40/hour on the same list as a large group of pilots making over $200/hour, and tell me where the pressure will be in the next contract. Will it be to ensure the top-paid folks get healthy raises...or to pull the lower-paid folks up? (If that hypothetical is difficult, just look at the #1 negotiating priority at NWA during the '98 strike: The b-scale. It was the #1 issue for the most senior pilots, even though they'd never been on a b-scale! Think about that.)

There were compromises suggested by those of us who had standing with both pilot groups who were attempting to mediate some sort of deal...but the PID cabal would have none of it. During the 2001 CMR strike I spent a lot of time trying to convince Dan that his group should start developing compromise proposals in case an opportunity arose to do something about an integration.

Unfortunately, he has a pornographic memory (simliar to a photographic memory, except you visualize anything anybody does as something that screws you), and persisted with his all-or-nothing demagoguery.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Check PM.

The smug geniuses that have it all figured out and only blame others are gonna have to figure it out on their own.

I think you will realize there is no compromise that will rebuild brand scope. Unless you have some amazing plan, only supply and demand will dictate that future.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

And on the mean time the "brand" keeps flying 50 seats with about $75/H with low time crews while there are experienced crews on the street still.

I don't know the chances of Brand Scope, but I'm a firm believer that bringing all pilots within an organization on one list, is the only way forward

 

[Occam's Razor]

And on the mean time the "brand" keeps flying 50 seats with about $75/H with low time crews while there are experienced crews on the street still.

I don't know the chances of Brand Scope, but I'm a firm believer that bringing all pilots within an organization on one list, is the only way forward

Sounds like an elegantly simple solution. Unfortunately, the problem is complex.

I shouldn't be the only one who has to open a check book to make it happen.

 

[DoinTime]

I shouldn't be the only one who has to open a check book to make it happen.

Unfortunately, only the group that controls the brand can make brand scope work. You shouldn't be the only that has to pay for it but you are the only one who can.

Duane Worth's brand scope initiative failed because the vast majority of pilots are to self centered to understand the destructive repercussions of their selfish ways.

 

[Occam's Razor]

It is not selfish to protect yourself from those that would do your job for less, just as it's not selfish to have locks on your doors. Are those that would take your job or take your property "selfish" for doing it?

I'd be willing to pay my share of the bill, but somebody has to help me out. The way the formula works out from my perspective is that I have to pay 100% of the cost for about 20% of the benefit. Those that would receive 80% of the benefit would pay none of the cost.

The strata existed long before there was such a thing as Scope, and I have no pretensions that being where I am right now was my "birthright". It wasn't...but I also expect others that aspire to be where I am to understand that making me pay the full tab to get them here ain't their birthright either.

I think Duane's efforts failed because we prioritize locally. The closest Legacy MEC to getting there was NWA, and we let Jeff Carlson talk us out of getting our nose under the tent flap.

 

[DoinTime]

It is not selfish to protect yourself from those that would do your job for less, just as it's not selfish to have locks on your doors. Are those that would take your job or take your property "selfish" for doing it?

This statement illustrates your disconnect Occam. You seem to veiw pilots that don't work at your company as predators that you need to be guarded against. What you need to be guarded against is yourselves and your management group. Your systematic pawning off of your domestic turbojet fleet is whats created the threat to your job security and crippled your barganing leverage.

When the regional "plan" is done at NWA towards the end of 2008 over half of the domestic NWA flying will be outsourced. NWA will be in a great position to work through any kind of strike at mainline.

I'd be willing to pay my share of the bill, but somebody has to help me out. The way the formula works out from my perspective is that I have to pay 100% of the cost for about 20% of the benefit. Those that would receive 80% of the benefit would pay none of the cost.

Here is the selfishness I speek of. Its well established that only one pilot group in any brand has the ability to make this work. If the regional pilots could do something to help make this work they would.

The strata existed long before there was such a thing as Scope, and I have no pretensions that being where I am right now was my "birthright". It wasn't...but I also expect others that aspire to be where I am to understand that making me pay the full tab to get them here ain't their birthright either.

Many pilot groups have made sacrafices for the profession that in many cases cost them their careers (Eastern comes right to mind). Modern mainline pilots pilfer from the foundations of this once proud profession to fund their third vacation home.

I think Duane's efforts failed because we prioritize locally. The closest Legacy MEC to getting there was NWA, and we let Jeff Carlson talk us out of getting our nose under the tent flap.

The NWA and DAL pilot groups both had everything it took to execute brand scope in their contracts just a few short years ago. Its gone now.