Compass one step closer

[Occam's Razor]

You seem to veiw pilots that don't work at your company as predators that you need to be guarded against. What you need to be guarded against is yourselves and your management group. Your systematic pawning off of your domestic turbojet fleet is whats created the threat to your job security and crippled your barganing leverage.

That's rich! Scope was created to protect pilot groups from their managements...no question, but to suggest that mainline pilots are responsible for your willingness to encroach on traditional mainline flying because a shiny jet is dangled in front of you is a ridiculous warping of reality.

Would NWA management have any leverage if you refused to do the flying?

Can pilots be predators? Can we flashback to a couple of years ago and discuss Big Sky? Did that cause you any concern? Was there any concern that another pilot group might be willing to do some of your traditional flying for less?

No raindrop thinks it's responsible for the flood.

Our management recognized that there was a force out there that could be used as leverage against mainline pilots. The force was the willingness of those starting out in the business to fly something bigger/faster...and to do it for less than "the formula". It was a predictable behavior and managments recognized it.

In the "good ol' days" it was never a threat. There was not a large segment of flying being done in small airliners. After 1978, smaller aircraft serving smaller cities became the standard. To hold down CASM, the owners of those small "commuters" used the force to staff their airlines. They paid pilots squat because pilots were willing to do it to pay their dues to get to (wait for it...) the Majors!

Cute little prop planes were not seen as a threat to mainline pilots because of the demarcation, in terms of size and numbers, was clear.

Then someone hung jets on those little airplanes and made them a bit bigger...

That action didn't change the situation at the mainlines. It was still a job the "commuter" pilots aspired to because it paid well, and had good work rules and benefits. But the lure of earning more in cooler airplanes while filling the logbook exploited the force, and the blame for that...of course!...lies with the mainline guys for not countering the predictable behavior of those pilots by not buying them a full-fare ticket instead of having them go space-available.

Got it!

When the regional "plan" is done at NWA towards the end of 2008 over half of the domestic NWA flying will be outsourced. NWA will be in a great position to work through any kind of strike at mainline.

If you're willing to be a scab, I suppose you could be right. Since I know the longterm business plan at NWA, I'm not sure it's quite the threat you think it is...but it's illuminating to see you define your role in such an event.

"May the force be with you!"

Here is the selfishness I speek of. Its well established that only one pilot group in any brand has the ability to make this work. If the regional pilots could do something to help make this work they would.

You mean like help pay for it? That'd be nice. In a previous post I outlined the costs of making it happen. What would you be willing to do to make it happen?

Many pilot groups have made sacrafices for the profession that in many cases cost them their careers (Eastern comes right to mind). Modern mainline pilots pilfer from the foundations of this once proud profession to fund their third vacation home.

Man, those stereotypes are real timesavers, aren't they? No intellectual straining. No bothersome connection with reality. No uncomfortable requirement to view fellow pilots as people who just might have been in your shoes. No sir! All you gotta do it villify 'em. Just a few lines ago you accused me of generalizing about Airlink pilots by viewing them as "predators". That was baaaaaad! But it's cool if you generalize about me.

The NWA and DAL pilot groups both had everything it took to execute brand scope in their contracts just a few short years ago. Its gone now.

Perhaps. I think there are opportunites for some significant changes, but it would require compromise...and victims seldom do that.

 

[DoinTime]

Just keep blaming everyone else for your problems. The manning forces in effect on this industry have been unchanged since the 1930's. The differences between today and the pre-deregulation airline industry are the executives, the lawyers, and the efficiencies of modern aircraft.

Its apparent (at least from what you say) that the NWA pilot group pinned their hopes on people unrelated to their cause to refuse available jobs that within a few years can provide a comfortable living. I applaud your service in the armed forces but the civilian career track to a retirement job is not even remotely comparable to your experiences. Reenlisting is not an option for most of us pilots in a bad job market.

 

[TurboAWD]

That's rich! Scope was created to protect pilot groups from their managements...no question, but to suggest that mainline pilots are responsible for your willingness to encroach on traditional mainline flying because a shiny jet is dangled in front of you is a ridiculous warping of reality.

Would NWA management have any leverage if you refused to do the flying?

Jesus man, pull your head out of your butt. Refuse to do the flying? You guys didn't have the nerve to stand up to protect your scope, and you want us to "refuse" flying you voted away? Get a grip.

9E/XJ pilots can't stop the over-sized RJs. I know many if not most of us were hoping you would hold on to them. You could have. YOU did not. So STFU. Now I'm the one potentially stuck flying a DC9 size airplane at a airline that gets to whipsaw its labor against virtually every other small jet operator in the industry.

Imagine if when NWA purchased the 787 they could say to you: "well, we'd like to have you guys fly it, but the USAir guys are willing to fly it for us at only $120/hr in the left seat. What can you offer us?" Try negotiating in that environment.

Turbo

 

[Occam's Razor]

Just keep blaming everyone else for your problems.

Excuse me? I've point out some other factors that many (including, apparently, you) choose to ignore.

I understand my "problems", but you're gonna have to understand that I can actually live without Brand Scope, because I've done a cost-benefit analysis. As cold-blooded as it sounds, I recognize where I am in the strata...what I have...and what I'd have to give up to get you right here with me. It's a lot.

I asked you tell me what you'd be willing to do to pay some of the cost. Any progress on that? (If you determine it's nothing, then the issue is settled)

The manning forces in effect on this industry have been unchanged since the 1930's.

Wrong. Up until the 1980's, the vast majority (over 80%) of pilots hired by the Major airlines came exclusively from the military. Now, it's about 33%. That's a signfiicant change!

The differences between today and the pre-deregulation airline industry are the executives, the lawyers, and the efficiencies of modern aircraft.

Thanks for re-stating my previous post. Add the shift in the source for most pilots hired, and you'll be in the zone.

Its apparent (at least from what you say) that the NWA pilot group pinned their hopes on people unrelated to their cause to refuse available jobs that within a few years can provide a comfortable living.

If it's a "comfortable living" then I won't see you across the table when I do interviews?

NWA pilots, along with other Legacy pilots, gained a lot of Scope when we had the leverage. Then we lost a lot when management had the leverage. I'm predicting we'll gain Scope when we regain leverage. (See the way it works?) In the case of a PID with MSA right now, I think it's worthwhile to try to create our own leverage. The only way that's gonna happen, however, is if the follow-on costs are shared. Absent that, I recommend you wear the blue tie.

I applaud your service in the armed forces but the civilian career track to a retirement job is not even remotely comparable to your experiences. Reenlisting is not an option for most of us pilots in a bad job market.

[WARNING! The following questions have been
deemed "brutal" by previous readers!]
​

Then why didn't you go in the military like me? Or just skip MSA and go straight to NWA?

We both know the answer to those. You went to MSA because it represented a reasonable opportunity for you to obtain the BFOQ's for my job. Not a guarantee or a promise...an opportunity. At some point you probably figured out that it ain't always who you are or what you are, or even how good you are. Often it's just when you are.

Both of us also know that we'd like to change that as much as we can. Hopefully, you understand there is a cost to making that change happen. How much of that cost are you willing to pay?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Jesus man, pull your head out of your butt. Refuse to do the flying? You guys didn't have the nerve to stand up to protect your scope, and you want us to "refuse" flying you voted away? Get a grip.

Well, you know....Yikes!...hang on!...my dog just ate my sandwich! I left the sandwich within reach, and my dog snarffed it right up! Geez! I guess that's my fault. I never shoulda left something my dog wanted right there where he could reach it. Lesson learned: Dogs are predictable and will snarff sandwiches if you leave them unprotected.

9E/XJ pilots can't stop the over-sized RJs.

Spot? That you?

I know many if not most of us were hoping you would hold on to them.

Yes, I saw all the glum faces faces of the depressed MSA pilots on their way to Avro training. It was sad to watch...

You could have. YOU did not. So STFU.

I will....but only if you promise to STFT (Stay The F#&k There)

Deal?

Now I'm the one potentially stuck flying a DC9 size airplane at a airline that gets to whipsaw its labor against virtually every other small jet operator in the industry.

I got an idea! Why don't we change that? It'll cost you, though. Not nearly as much as it'll cost me...but it WILL cost you. You in?

Imagine if when NWA purchased the 787 they could say to you: "well, we'd like to have you guys fly it, but the USAir guys are willing to fly it for us at only $120/hr in the left seat. What can you offer us?" Try negotiating in that environment.

Been there...done that. It's called wet lease, code-share, and alliances. See my Section 1.

Instead of clipping just a portion of my post, go back and see if you can read the entire thing for comprehension. I'm on your side, but I can't do it alone. If you want to help, then start demonstrating that you understand the i$$ue$ from my perspective.

If you can't, you wear the red tie (so I can tell you from DoinTime)

 

[Beetle007]

Imagine if when NWA purchased the 787 they could say to you: "well, we'd like to have you guys fly it, but the USAir guys are willing to fly it for us at only $120/hr in the left seat. What can you offer us?" Try negotiating in that environment.
Turbo

Unfortunantly, that is EXACTLY the environment in which NWA pilots were negotiating. LCCs purchased A320s and 737s and had pilots WILLING to work for a lot less than NWA pilots.

I remember a meeting when the NWA CEO said "Frontier and other LCC pilots are willing to fly for a lot less, so why should I pay you more". Unfortunantly, he was right.

An A320 captain at NWA used to top out around 220K and an A320 First Officer used to top out at around 130K. Jetblue pilots offered to work for half those wages. Now Skybus pilots appear to be willing to work for half of what Jetblue pilots make. I will find it Ironic if a Jeblue pilot ever gets mad at a Skybus Captain for their willingness to work for 60ish an hour.

 

[jetflier]

Unfortunantly, that is EXACTLY the environment in which NWA pilots were negotiating. LCCs purchased A320s and 737s and had pilots WILLING to work for a lot less than NWA pilots.

I remember a meeting when the NWA CEO said "Frontier and other LCC pilots are willing to fly for a lot less, so why should I pay you more". Unfortunantly, he was right.

An A320 captain at NWA used to top out around 220K and an A320 First Officer used to top out at around 130K. Jetblue pilots offered to work for half those wages. Now Skybus pilots appear to be willing to work for half of what Jetblue pilots make. I will find it Ironic if a Jeblue pilot ever gets mad at a Skybus Captain for their willingness to work for 60ish an hour.

Hey Beetle,

Right on, the cycle repeats itself, and now we have Pinnacle canceling 1000 flights because of a lack of pilots, qualified pilots. Rumor has it that they are recruiting very low time timers, and soon will run out of them as well.

Some regionals are seeking pilot apps with just 200 hours,....real safe to put your family on.

Seems like the industry is hitting bottom.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

It's not that a 200hr pilot is unsafe, it's that the environment is unsafe to have a 200 hr pilot. This business will fall apart from the ground up, and that's the biggest threat to mainline pilots. Management will bail out on their golden parachutes.

 

[TurboAWD]

I got an idea! Why don't we change that? It'll cost you, though. Not nearly as much as it'll cost me...but it WILL cost you. You in?

Yes.

Turbo

 

[TurboAWD]

I remember a meeting when the NWA CEO said "Frontier and other LCC pilots are willing to fly for a lot less, so why should I pay you more".

...

I will find it Ironic if a Jeblue pilot ever gets mad at a Skybus Captain for their willingness to work for 60ish an hour.

You know something ironic? When the latest NWA deal was signed, it put NWA A330 CA pay at about the same as F9 A319. I guess mgmt did a REALLY good job convincing you needed to "compete" with them.

As for JB, take a look at the NW 190 FO pay, and then look at the JB 190 FO pay. Ouch. Hope they don't deny you the jumpseat.

I understand the crappy situation you guys were in, just drop the holier-than-thou attitude. You proved you were only human.

Turbo

 

[Blade Runner]

Can pilots be predators? Can we flashback to a couple of years ago and discuss Big Sky? Did that cause you any concern? Was there any concern that another pilot group might be willing to do some of your traditional flying for less?

Bullseye Occam, man I'd hate to play you at darts!! We should of demanded that Big sky's Seniority list be integrated with ours, if we could have accomplished this, then we could have the template to start integrating lists with mainline. As it stands now, it is quite hypocritical of us (XJ) demanding that NWA Pilots turn the other cheek as we get the lions share of these CRJ900's.
But what other recourse is there now? the cat is out of the bag and it's not going back in. One list is the only solution and it must be mutually agreed upon.
I believe if we can come to some agreement about the first 36 CRJ900's (Lets face it ...The AVRO replacements), build some type of fence to protect those seats. Then we can staple the XJ and Pinnacle Lists to the Bottom of the seniority list at Mainline. The NWA MEC will be in a stronger position to negotiate fair wages and work rules for the entire RJ fleet to include who will fly them. And you will have flow back protection for all NWA Pilots. The 36 seats that are protected will be so for only those individuals who choose to remain in the RJ fleet. Once they bid out of the 900 ie A320 FO etc they loose that protection, but keep flow back rights per any other NWA Mainline Pilot. The bottom line will be that NWA flying will be done by NWA pilots and no others.

 

[Beetle007]

You know something ironic? When the latest NWA deal was signed, it put NWA A330 CA pay at about the same as F9 A319. I guess mgmt did a REALLY good job convincing you needed to "compete" with them.
Turbo

Bankruptcy judges thought the contract the company wanted to IMPOSE was fair because it was comparable to other low cost airlines. Further, the company argued that they had to pay LESS than low cost carriers to remain on a level playing field. NWA management argued this because low cost carrers have employees at the bottom of the payscales and legacy airlines had employees at the top of the payscale. This is the reason companies like NWA (or U.S. Airways,United,etc..) are able to argue to a bankruptcy judge that they must pay less than low cost carriers.

Managment didn't have to convince the pilots of anything, all they had to do was convince the bankruptcy judge/s. Just look at the flight attendants (who actually have some balls).

 

[profit]

I'd be willing to pay my share of the bill, but somebody has to help me out. The way the formula works out from my perspective is that I have to pay 100% of the cost for about 20% of the benefit. Those that would receive 80% of the benefit would pay none of the cost.

How much do you want? You know us regional pilots make so much money right? I think the average MSA pay is around 45k. The difference is that so many of you guys got hired at mainline when the regionals were just regionals. Lots of us are approaching 40 and we have to keep giving to get something?

The regionals are monsters all mainline carriers allowed to be born. And now you want us to pay for it? We held up the standard by fighting against PFT and newbies buying their own hotel rooms. It may sound lame, but we protected the new guys who would have done it for free or for very little.

We also scoped Big Sky out above 19 seats. We could have done a merger, but of course mgmt never wanted that. But we didn't say "ok, we'll give Big Sky our 34 seaters so we can get 76 seat jets".

So again, what is it that we have to give up to make the mainline pilot happy? (oh yeah, we don't have pensions either)

 

[Occam's Razor]

The regionals are monsters all mainline carriers allowed to be born. And now you want us to pay for it?

Nope. I want you to recognize that there are significant costs to integration, and that it is unreasonable to expect maniline pilots to bear all those costs. There is (and I know you know this!) something in it for you!

We held up the standard by fighting against PFT and newbies buying their own hotel rooms. It may sound lame, but we protected the new guys who would have done it for free or for very little.

Good on ya! Those are items that need to be included in the first joint mailing to the NWA and MSA pilot groups if Dave and Tom can convince our MEC's to pull the trigger. Tom will be hailed as a genius by his pilots, while Dave will ahve to get someone to start his car for him in the morning...

He'll need some help, and it'll have to come from you.

We also scoped Big Sky out above 19 seats. We could have done a merger, but of course mgmt never wanted that. But we didn't say "ok, we'll give Big Sky our 34 seaters so we can get 76 seat jets".

What? You guys didn't want Brand Scope?

(gasp!)

"Hull breach! Sector 4!"

So again, what is it that we have to give up to make the mainline pilot happy? (oh yeah, we don't have pensions either)

Think about it. The highest cost will be what to pay the newly-integrated flying from MSA. Management will look down the road at that. Should we?

 

[DoinTime]

Nope. I want you to recognize that there are significant costs to integration, and that it is unreasonable to expect maniline pilots to bear all those costs. There is (and I know you know this!) something in it for you!

What? You guys didn't want Brand Scope?

After all of this Mark still doesn't know what Brand Scope even is.

Brand Scope is not:

- One list
- One company
- One certificate
- One contract
- Seniority mobility

Brand Scope is:

- One labor group in control of who may fly under the corporate umbrella

 

[Occam's Razor]

It's a simple question: Did the Scope arrangement regarding Big Sky further the cause of Brand Scope?

Yes or no?

 

[DoinTime]

It's a simple question: Did the Scope arrangement regarding Big Sky further the cause of Brand Scope?

Yes or no?

Yes....The Mesaba pilots gained control over the flying by their holding company (brand name for lack of the obvious branding). Under their agreement MAIR was no longer able to source any additional pilot groups for any of their flying without the specific authorization of XJALPA.

In addition to the obvious job security benefits for the XJ pilots, Big Sky pilots now also benefit from the security of the monopoly they have on their class of flying (and they didn't pay a dime for it).

This is what Brand Scope is all about. It may not seem friendly, it may not seem nice, and it may not even seem like what the uneducated think they want. The end result of Brand Scope is a relationship that all entities can be assured that they won't be played against each other and that they are safe from outsiders.

I hope your catching on Occam.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Now, back to Compass.

I found out that at least some of the NWA furloughees are being offered a choice of -9 FO or Compass RJ Captain.

Will ALL of the NWA new-hires from now come from Compass?
Will anyone off the street be offered Compass captain slots?
Will Mesaba/BigSky and/or PCL guys be offered preferential slots at Compass?
Will Compass be an ALPA airline?
What will the pay at Compass be like?
Any other info on Compass would be appreciated!

cliff
YIP

 

[Occam's Razor]

Yes....The Mesaba pilots gained control over the flying by their holding company (brand name for lack of the obvious branding). Under their agreement MAIR was no longer able to source any additional pilot groups for any of their flying without the specific authorization of XJALPA.

Is there successorship language for this Scope?

ie: Will it still exist ina a couple of month when MSA becomes a wholly-owned?

 

[Beetle007]

I think Republic has the best definition of brand scope. 3 companies under one pilot group and one voice.

If the Legacies would have just done this from the beginning we would be in a lot better position today. Now that the horse is out of the barn, no one (regional or mainline) wants to sacrifice anything to fix the problem.