Compass one step closer

[Blade Runner]

Can pilots be predators? Can we flashback to a couple of years ago and discuss Big Sky? Did that cause you any concern? Was there any concern that another pilot group might be willing to do some of your traditional flying for less?

Bullseye Occam, man I'd hate to play you at darts!! We should of demanded that Big sky's Seniority list be integrated with ours, if we could have accomplished this, then we could have the template to start integrating lists with mainline. As it stands now, it is quite hypocritical of us (XJ) demanding that NWA Pilots turn the other cheek as we get the lions share of these CRJ900's.
But what other recourse is there now? the cat is out of the bag and it's not going back in. One list is the only solution and it must be mutually agreed upon.
I believe if we can come to some agreement about the first 36 CRJ900's (Lets face it ...The AVRO replacements), build some type of fence to protect those seats. Then we can staple the XJ and Pinnacle Lists to the Bottom of the seniority list at Mainline. The NWA MEC will be in a stronger position to negotiate fair wages and work rules for the entire RJ fleet to include who will fly them. And you will have flow back protection for all NWA Pilots. The 36 seats that are protected will be so for only those individuals who choose to remain in the RJ fleet. Once they bid out of the 900 ie A320 FO etc they loose that protection, but keep flow back rights per any other NWA Mainline Pilot. The bottom line will be that NWA flying will be done by NWA pilots and no others.

 

[Beetle007]

You know something ironic? When the latest NWA deal was signed, it put NWA A330 CA pay at about the same as F9 A319. I guess mgmt did a REALLY good job convincing you needed to "compete" with them.
Turbo

Bankruptcy judges thought the contract the company wanted to IMPOSE was fair because it was comparable to other low cost airlines. Further, the company argued that they had to pay LESS than low cost carriers to remain on a level playing field. NWA management argued this because low cost carrers have employees at the bottom of the payscales and legacy airlines had employees at the top of the payscale. This is the reason companies like NWA (or U.S. Airways,United,etc..) are able to argue to a bankruptcy judge that they must pay less than low cost carriers.

Managment didn't have to convince the pilots of anything, all they had to do was convince the bankruptcy judge/s. Just look at the flight attendants (who actually have some balls).

 

[profit]

I'd be willing to pay my share of the bill, but somebody has to help me out. The way the formula works out from my perspective is that I have to pay 100% of the cost for about 20% of the benefit. Those that would receive 80% of the benefit would pay none of the cost.

How much do you want? You know us regional pilots make so much money right? I think the average MSA pay is around 45k. The difference is that so many of you guys got hired at mainline when the regionals were just regionals. Lots of us are approaching 40 and we have to keep giving to get something?

The regionals are monsters all mainline carriers allowed to be born. And now you want us to pay for it? We held up the standard by fighting against PFT and newbies buying their own hotel rooms. It may sound lame, but we protected the new guys who would have done it for free or for very little.

We also scoped Big Sky out above 19 seats. We could have done a merger, but of course mgmt never wanted that. But we didn't say "ok, we'll give Big Sky our 34 seaters so we can get 76 seat jets".

So again, what is it that we have to give up to make the mainline pilot happy? (oh yeah, we don't have pensions either)

 

[Occam's Razor]

The regionals are monsters all mainline carriers allowed to be born. And now you want us to pay for it?

Nope. I want you to recognize that there are significant costs to integration, and that it is unreasonable to expect maniline pilots to bear all those costs. There is (and I know you know this!) something in it for you!

We held up the standard by fighting against PFT and newbies buying their own hotel rooms. It may sound lame, but we protected the new guys who would have done it for free or for very little.

Good on ya! Those are items that need to be included in the first joint mailing to the NWA and MSA pilot groups if Dave and Tom can convince our MEC's to pull the trigger. Tom will be hailed as a genius by his pilots, while Dave will ahve to get someone to start his car for him in the morning...

He'll need some help, and it'll have to come from you.

We also scoped Big Sky out above 19 seats. We could have done a merger, but of course mgmt never wanted that. But we didn't say "ok, we'll give Big Sky our 34 seaters so we can get 76 seat jets".

What? You guys didn't want Brand Scope?

(gasp!)

"Hull breach! Sector 4!"

So again, what is it that we have to give up to make the mainline pilot happy? (oh yeah, we don't have pensions either)

Think about it. The highest cost will be what to pay the newly-integrated flying from MSA. Management will look down the road at that. Should we?

 

[DoinTime]

Nope. I want you to recognize that there are significant costs to integration, and that it is unreasonable to expect maniline pilots to bear all those costs. There is (and I know you know this!) something in it for you!

What? You guys didn't want Brand Scope?

After all of this Mark still doesn't know what Brand Scope even is.

Brand Scope is not:

- One list
- One company
- One certificate
- One contract
- Seniority mobility

Brand Scope is:

- One labor group in control of who may fly under the corporate umbrella

 

[Occam's Razor]

It's a simple question: Did the Scope arrangement regarding Big Sky further the cause of Brand Scope?

Yes or no?

 

[DoinTime]

It's a simple question: Did the Scope arrangement regarding Big Sky further the cause of Brand Scope?

Yes or no?

Yes....The Mesaba pilots gained control over the flying by their holding company (brand name for lack of the obvious branding). Under their agreement MAIR was no longer able to source any additional pilot groups for any of their flying without the specific authorization of XJALPA.

In addition to the obvious job security benefits for the XJ pilots, Big Sky pilots now also benefit from the security of the monopoly they have on their class of flying (and they didn't pay a dime for it).

This is what Brand Scope is all about. It may not seem friendly, it may not seem nice, and it may not even seem like what the uneducated think they want. The end result of Brand Scope is a relationship that all entities can be assured that they won't be played against each other and that they are safe from outsiders.

I hope your catching on Occam.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Now, back to Compass.

I found out that at least some of the NWA furloughees are being offered a choice of -9 FO or Compass RJ Captain.

Will ALL of the NWA new-hires from now come from Compass?
Will anyone off the street be offered Compass captain slots?
Will Mesaba/BigSky and/or PCL guys be offered preferential slots at Compass?
Will Compass be an ALPA airline?
What will the pay at Compass be like?
Any other info on Compass would be appreciated!

cliff
YIP

 

[Occam's Razor]

Yes....The Mesaba pilots gained control over the flying by their holding company (brand name for lack of the obvious branding). Under their agreement MAIR was no longer able to source any additional pilot groups for any of their flying without the specific authorization of XJALPA.

Is there successorship language for this Scope?

ie: Will it still exist ina a couple of month when MSA becomes a wholly-owned?

 

[Beetle007]

I think Republic has the best definition of brand scope. 3 companies under one pilot group and one voice.

If the Legacies would have just done this from the beginning we would be in a lot better position today. Now that the horse is out of the barn, no one (regional or mainline) wants to sacrifice anything to fix the problem.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Will ALL of the NWA new-hires from now come from Compass?

No.

Will anyone off the street be offered Compass captain slots?

Dunno. That depends on the contract that the NWA MEC Compass Team gets. They're working on it again today. But the math suggests they will need street captains.

Will Mesaba/BigSky and/or PCL guys be offered preferential slots at Compass?

Same deal. There is nothing in the existing terms that requires it, although MSA might qualifiy as a wholly-owned by the time the deal is done.

Will Compass be an ALPA airline?

Yes. The long-term plan is for NWA to build it up, ink a Commercial Services Agreement with them, and sell them to someone else. They did the same a few years ago with PCL.

What will the pay at Compass be like?

Those numbers are out, but I only have a paper copy.

Any other info on Compass would be appreciated!

One of the lurkers on this Forum is one of the guys negotiating the deal. He actually knows everything that's been settled so far. Perhaps he'll weigh-in?


Good luck!

 

[jetflier]

Hey Occam,

Good post M**k

 

[FOrever85]

Is there successorship language for this Scope?

ie: Will it still exist ina a couple of month when MSA becomes a wholly-owned?

Yes,

Our agreement is between ALPA and MAIR, not Mesaba.

But that is why MAIR is going to some backward judge in TX to get the letter reversed, so we will see if we get screwed again or not.

 

[flyboyike]

Compass has been "one step closer" now for quite some time.

 

[N2264J]

Spare me the "plantation mentality" hooey!

I understand my "problems", but you're gonna have to understand that I can actually live without Brand Scope, because I've done a cost-benefit analysis. As cold-blooded as it sounds, I recognize where I am in the strata...what I have...and what I'd have to give up to get you right here with me. It's a lot.

DAL management would be losing a valuable weapon in any such integration: The Whipsaw. How much is that worth to them? Tough to say, but would have been quickly quantified at the negotiating table. Direct costs include the contract. At the time, the number used was North of $800-million in 2000 dollars. That's a minimum! Repeat, minimum!

He's got some nerve coming on the regional board to talk about all the risk the beleaguered mainliners have to endure. Where was the compromise when the Northwest MEC got a $15 million bargaining credit for driving 40 growth airplanes away from Mesaba and Pinnacle? That's @ 200 more Captain seats, more trip pairings, better lines, people moving off reserve, etc. - a lot of money not realized by Mesaba and Pinnicle pilots.

Did the mainliners just wake up one morning and realize they were virulent anti union? When did doing the right thing, that is - fundamentally acting like
a union, require a cost/benefit analysis? A calculated, conscious decision to allow whipsaw was made despite ALPA's so called policy against it. Can union members be treated with any more contempt by "union brothers?"

And yet another excuse is added to the list to pacify the sycophants who still believe:

"We're just too busy now to be a union."
"Baby steps."
"It's just too hard right now with all the bankruptcies to act like a union."
"We've done a cost/benefit analysis and you were determined to be a cost."
(They knew that when they invited us in).

As a dues paying member, it's just stunning to read what this guy is saying. ALPA allowed the "regional" members to be thrown under the bus and they conspired with management to do it. Paying the price of unionism is just too high for the plantation owners. Face it, there are two unions called ALPA and we're not in his "union." It's despicable.

 

[TurboAWD]

you know, the funny (sad) thing is that these guys are so worried about the near term costs to them, that they don't realize that they sold themselves and their careers down the river along with ours...

Scope doesn't cost, it saves!

Turbo

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Back to COMPASS again.

A guy I know just got an interview, and called me to ask me what i know about Compass, which is almost "Less Than Zero" (I liked that movie a lot.).

He is gloing to the interview mostly to find out what Compass is about.

If YOU know anything, please enlighten us.

Thanx!

cliff
YIP

 

[N2264J]

you know, the funny (sad) thing is that these guys are so worried about the near term costs to them, that they don't realize that they sold themselves and their careers down the river along with ours...Scope doesn't cost, it saves!

"ALPA is you! ALPA sucks because you suck."
"We're just too busy now to be a union."
"Baby steps."
"It's just too hard right now with all the bankruptcies to act like a union."
"We've done a cost/benefit analysis and you were determined to be a cost."

Ask yourself this question:

If the "regionals" are a cost to the union, why are they working so hard on their third recruiting drive at Skywest?

When you scratch the surface on that inquiry, you may start to get an insight into the total dysfunctionality of this disaster of a union the legacy pilots have made.

 

[DoinTime]

ALPA allowed the "regional" members to be thrown under the bus and they conspired with management to do it. Paying the price of unionism is just too high for the plantation owners. Face it, there are two unions called ALPA and we're not in his "union." It's despicable.

Try not displace your anger towards ALPA when NWALPA is to blame. The two are distinctly different organizations that have little connections between them.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Try not displace your anger towards ALPA when NWALPA is to blame. The two are distinctly different organizations that have little connections between them.

That's precisely the point. Until you find a way for them to not be "two distintly different organizations", you do not have an effective ALPA. Place the blame where you want, but it still makes for an ineffective ALPA.

 

[saabservant]

Joe: I agree

 

[IHateMgmt]

He's got some nerve coming on the regional board to talk about all the risk the beleaguered mainliners have to endure. Where was the compromise when the Northwest MEC got a $15 million bargaining credit for driving 40 growth airplanes away from Mesaba and Pinnacle? That's @ 200 more Captain seats, more trip pairings, better lines, people moving off reserve, etc. - a lot of money not realized by Mesaba and Pinnicle pilots.

Here's a concept that I want you to try hard to understand... The larger the percentage of flying at regionals there is, the longer it takes us to get through this regional circus act and to where we want to be. You seem like a smart enough guy... I don't know why this one's so hard for you. Now, I'm not saying that ALPA is perfect, but at least they seem to be barking up the right tree.

 

[DoinTime]

That's precisely the point. Until you find a way for them to not be "two distintly different organizations", you do not have an effective ALPA. Place the blame where you want, but it still makes for an ineffective ALPA.

I don't disagree but change will not be prompted from the outside in. Had you not abandoned your MEC post at ASA maybe you could have worked your way into a position where you could effect change.

There is no doubt that ALPA has its fair share of problems. The same could be said for the U.S. government. Unfortunately, both of these organizations are to old and to large to be outright replaced by a process short of a revolution. What ALPA needs are talented, dedicated pilots with a wide range of professional experience to take a long term interest in this profession and remold the bylaws. The heckling from the sidelines by nameless, faceless idiots does nobody any good.

 

[DoinTime]

Here's a concept that I want you to try hard to understand... The larger the percentage of flying at regionals there is, the longer it takes us to get through this regional circus act and to where we want to be. You seem like a smart enough guy... I don't know why this one's so hard for you. Now, I'm not saying that ALPA is perfect, but at least they seem to be barking up the right tree.

Its important to note that NWALPA was not trying to capture those 40 growth airplanes for their own pilots to fly but rather they specifically engineered the deal to divert this growth into carriers OTHER than XJ and PCL. That is not barking up the right tree.

 

[N2264J]

Try not displace your anger towards ALPA when NWALPA is to blame. The two are distinctly different organizations that have little connections between them.

Oh, I disagree.

There are no contracts or side letters unless and until the president signs on the line.

ALPA and NWALPA are one and the same.

 

[DoinTime]

Oh, I disagree.

There are no contracts or side letters unless and until the president signs on the line.

ALPA and NWALPA are one and the same.

The president of ALPA has very little latitude in what they can refuse to endorse. If you knew what the inside of ALPA looked like you'd know this. With some exceptions each MEC is in control of their own destiny.

 

[N2264J]

Here's a concept that I want you to try hard to understand... The larger the percentage of flying at regionals there is, the longer it takes us to get through this regional circus act and to where we want to be.

I guess it depends on where you want to be. I think it's all going to be a circus act soon. Most of Delta flying is now being done by Delta Connection pilots. That horse left the barn in 2000 when the Delta MEC, doing business as ALPA, denied our request for a PID.

Because the Delta pilots are in the minority on their own property, they have already sold their bargaining leverage for short term gains. They just don't seem to realize it yet. But if you think those cream puff contracts are coming back someday, in my opinion, they ain't.

The majors carrier contracts with their defined benefit plans, cushy work rules and big pay checks are under attack and in decline because ALPA thought they could control us with scope. ALPA, and APA for that matter, are still clinging to this failed policy. When ALPA threw its own members under the bus in the presence of management, well, let's just say management smells the blood in the water.

They've learned nothing from Lorenzo. Nothing.

Before we can fix the whipsaw, we have to fix the union.

www.rjdefense.com

 

[IHateMgmt]

I guess it depends on where you want to be. I think it's all going to be a circus act soon. Most of Delta flying is now being done by Delta Connection pilots. That horse left the barn in 2000 when the Delta MEC, doing business as ALPA, denied our request for a PID.

Because the Delta pilots are in the minority on their own property, they have already sold their bargaining leverage for short term gains. They just don't seem to realize it yet. But if you think those cream puff contracts are coming back someday, in my opinion, they ain't.

The majors carrier contracts with their defined benefit plans, cushy work rules and big pay checks are under attack and in decline because ALPA thought they could control us with scope. ALPA, and APA for that matter, are still clinging to this failed policy. When ALPA threw its own members under the bus in the presence of management, well, let's just say management smells the blood in the water.

They've learned nothing from Lorenzo. Nothing.

Before we can fix the whipsaw, we have to fix the union.

www.rjdefense.com

I think we all can agree that ALPA could use a little fixing up. Here's my issue: RJDC does not seek to fix ALPA.

I've been to their website before and the first thing you see is their "three critical issues." Those issues revolve around growing the percentage of RJ flying at the DIRECT cost of mainline flying. You can't dispute this... its right on your own website.

Now ask yourself, who else is trying to convert mainline to regional flying? Easy answer: Airline Mgmt.

Times have been rough and certainly ALPA could use some help. RJDC is not the answer to this problem. In fact, they are part of the problem... right up there with the likes of good ol' Frank himself.

 

[N2264J]

I've been to their website before and the first thing you see is their "three critical issues." Those issues revolve around growing the percentage of RJ flying at the DIRECT cost of mainline flying. You can't dispute this... its right on your own website.

Negative, that's not what it says. Our point is you cannot control the marketplace with a union contract. Have you noticed? It doesn't work. Combine that with ALPA's duty to the pilots flying these planes for their livelihood and you have the makings of DFR.

Can you imagine if regional members could limit the number of 737s that mainline operates? It's stupid. A market is not just a city pair, it's also a time of day. If the 737 is the most efficient, profitable way of moving people from A to B at 1500 every afternoon, why would you want to hobble your own company by limiting 737s? Now substitute "CRJ" for "737."

United and US Airways had much more restrictive scope than Delta and Delta had far fewer furloughees because more small jets were bringing people from Hooterville into the hub to connect to a mainline plane.

One pilot group flying all the aircraft (Beech 1900s to 777s) under a code is where the pilot bargaining leverage is. Until we figure that out, this profession is toast.

If you only read one thing from the site, make it this:

http://www.rjdefense.com/2003/10_Things_About_Scope.pdf

 

[737 Pylt]

Negative, that's not what it says. Our point is you cannot control the marketplace with a union contract. Have you noticed? It doesn't work. Combine that with ALPA's duty to the pilots flying these planes for their livelihood and you have the makings of DFR.

Nice spin on words.....I guess you don't spend too much time on your own website!

Can you imagine if regional members could limit the number of 737s that mainline operates? It's stupid. A market is not just a city pair, it's also a time of day. If the 737 is the most efficient, profitable way of moving people from A to B at 1500 every afternoon, why would you want to hobble your own company by limiting 737s? Now substitute "CRJ" for "737."

Maybe if the regionals owned that flying that might just work. Until then...ALL flying under the DL code is subject to the DL pilots' PWA! I just don't understand why you idiots can't comprehend that! If you want to fly bigger jets, go right ahead, just sever your ties with ALL DL code flying! Ask the folks at ACA/Indy Air how they did!

United and US Airways had much more restrictive scope than Delta and Delta had far fewer furloughees because more small jets were bringing people from Hooterville into the hub to connect to a mainline plane.

And yet you still comlain that your careers are hurt by scope, the very scope which you and your circle jerk of cadres are trying to eliminate!

One pilot group flying all the aircraft (Beech 1900s to 777s) under a code is where the pilot bargaining leverage is. Until we figure that out, this profession is toast.

If you want a job at a mainline carrier, go out and apply like most of your peers skippy! You can't sue to get a job, much as your group has tried!

If you only read one thing from the site, make it this:

http://www.rjdefense.com/2003/10_Things_About_Scope.pdf

uke:

737