Compass one step closer

[TurboAWD]

I agree... but you're still not explaining to me what possible downside there could be to mainline pilots for achieving Brand Scope or list integration with their Airlinks. I'm waiting to see if you understand the perspective of the mainline pilots....a perspective that pre-dated 9/11! Remember, the issue of Brand Scope was on the table well before 2001. Take a minute to work that out in your mind, and get back to me.

Honestly, I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about here...or why you are so condescending about it. Perhaps you are referring to RJ pilots being integrated by DOH? I certainly am not advocating that. However, I can understand why a super senior airlinker would not want to risk being furloughed by some NWA guy that never worked at airlink... You guys are masters of the fences though (red book/green book), so I'm sure something reasonable could be worked out.

To repeat: If it's such a good deal and an obvious no-brainer, what possible reason(s) could mainline pilots have for not fighting aggressively for it?

Well, to be honest, I don't think many of the folks at NW (or other carriers, for that matter). Have any understanding of anything going on in this business. Also, I think they were mislead by your old negotiating committee/MEC (I read all the "Across the Table" notes, and thought they were very misleading. And I think they are looking very short term.

Don't ask me to put myself in your shoes until you can demonstrate you're capable of doing the same for me.

Hey, I understand that you were in a S*** sandwich. And, that when the 50 seaters first came out, it may have been difficult for people to grasp the risks of releasing the scope on them However, I think when it came time to talk about 76 seaters, the risks were obvious.

I don't think you're as familiar with our Scope as I am...or what exactly was given up in the new contract. I appreciate your willingness to try to understand what our management was "looking for" in our deal, but your conclusion is just flat wrong.

What they were looking for was, among other things, duration. That way, when they came out of Ch11 and started showing good profits, you guys wouldn't be able to do s***. And they got it.

If you're referring to Brand Scope, it's apparent that it is not as important as other items in the contract.

Yes, it is as important.

Tell me WHY it isn't as important.

Perhaps you should have gone into the "troops to teachers" program, professor.

You understand the benefit to you ("you" being any Airlink pilot), and you understand the potential benefit to mainline pilots...but your understanding of Scope will not be complete (or relevant!) until you can show me you understand the cost and the liability.

You mean you think you would have had to give up some more in other areas to get the 76 seaters? Possibly true. Still worth it in the long run (unless you are 50+. Frankly, I think alot of guys voted yes strictly to save their pensions- please tell me where the deal says they can't turn over the pensions to the gov't? I don't think they will, but I think it is because mgm't doesn't want to share equity in the new company with the gov't.

Hey, I understand you guys were in a S*** sandwich. However, I think that mainline pilots everywhere have forgotten the lessons of the 50 seat RJ disaster.

semper fi!

Right back at you.

Turbo

 

[Occam's Razor]

Turbo,

If I come across as the "professor" it's because I've put a lot of time and effort into this issue. I think I have a pretty good understanding of it, from all perspectives. (That assumption is a result of the HOURS I've debated it with RJDC "geniuses")

The inescapable truth is that the most zealous proponents just don't understand the risks to mainline pilots (which ultimately means ALL pilots on the list!) under Brand Scope and/or list integration.

It matters because the cost and the risks are what prevent the mainline pilots from placing it in the top tier of negotiating objectives.

I'm sorry if my frustration comes off as condescending. It's an important issue and it's irritating when I hear "experts" on the subject who actually understand about 50% of it.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The downside to list integration is not to mainline pilots, it's to the airlink pilots of which are regional lifers. This is why this issue was killed in the past, because if you combine the lists, management has the right to set every regional pilot to first year mainline pay. The senior pilots will always vote to save his or her job no matter what.

 

[TurboAWD]

Hey, just to make it clear:

I am not a RJDC guy.
I support ALPA.
I don't want to work at a "regional the" rest of my life.

My fear is that these scope reliefs are essentially irreversible, and will haunt me and my contemporaries the rest of our careers.

Turbo

 

[YourPilotFriend]

My fear is that these scope reliefs are essentially irreversible, and will haunt me and my contemporaries the rest of our careers.

Turbo

It's based on supply and demand, if the supply of pilots gets so tight, regionals will have to pay more for pilots than mainline does just to keep them. We lost our pay because when mainline was not hiring, there were thousands of pilots willing to work for nothing. As airlines cancel flights because of lack of crews, capacity will shrink and ticket prices will go up.

 

[Occam's Razor]

The downside to list integration is not to mainline pilots, it's to the airlink pilots of which are regional lifers. This is why this issue was killed in the past, because if you combine the lists, management has the right to set every regional pilot to first year mainline pay. The senior pilots will always vote to save his or her job no matter what.

YPF, let me say this as gently as I can muster right now: You are not even in the correct solar system right now. Go back to your desk and leave this discussion to pilots. You have no clue why the issue was killed in the past, and you are just flat wrong about the possible integration pay issues.

I'll give you this much, your last sentence MIGHT be close if you changed one of the nouns...but I'm pretty sure you don't understand the mechanism that represents the threat, so you get no credit.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I am not a RJDC guy.
I support ALPA.
I don't want to work at a "regional the" rest of my life.

My fear is that these scope reliefs are essentially irreversible, and will haunt me and my contemporaries the rest of our careers.

Good!
Good!
Good!

Mine too! Especially knowing what I do about NWA and DAL's long-term business plans. The further we move toward their goal of detaching the operational function of "feed" to mix-n-match providers, the tougher it will be to achieve our goal. That's one of the reasons I've been barking at the NWA and MSA MEC Chairmen to pull the trigger on a PID. I know it's risky, but if we don't do it now (while MSA is relatively small) we might not have the opportunity again.

S/F!

 

[Schwanker]

Well, to be honest, I don't think many of the folks at NW (or other carriers, for that matter). Have any understanding of anything going on in this business. Also, I think they were mislead by your old negotiating committee/MEC (I read all the "Across the Table" notes, and thought they were very misleading. And I think they are looking very short term.


You mean you think you would have had to give up some more in other areas to get the 76 seaters? Possibly true. Still worth it in the long run (unless you are 50+. Frankly, I think alot of guys voted yes strictly to save their pensions- please tell me where the deal says they can't turn over the pensions to the gov't? I don't think they will, but I think it is because mgm't doesn't want to share equity in the new company with the gov't.

Turbo

You got that part right. Regardless of the "best of intentions," the Across the Tables and general message from the Negotiators and MEC Leadership were extremely misleading. They were in such a hurry to sign any deal that protected their pension, loopholes were left all over the place for management to exploit. If anyone even asked the question on these loopholes, they were brushed off and told "that won't happen." Although I agree with Occam on most issues, I'm sure he'll disagree with me here. We are on different ends of the seniority list though.

I for one am extremely disappointed with the representation I received--as is nearly everyone on the bottom 1/3 of the list. At least the fat cats at the top keep their $10K+ a month pensions with a 5% DC contribution to boot. The folks at the top of the list will earn triple in retirement what the bottom guys will earn slaving their a$$es off. I'm not upset what the senior guys are making. I'm upset that they sold everyone else in their own personnal self interest to do it.

 

[CFIfornow]

So I've been watching this tread go around and around for a few days now, and I've been trying to pull out the important points on bringing together the NWA and MES pilot lists. First if the list were integrated junior main line guys risk being bumped by senior XJ guys. Very junior (less then 5 years) XJ guys would be bumped by furloughed NW guys (if any of them would go back to a regional) Second and IMO more likely, a staple would make senior XJ guys DC-9 or maybe EMB190 FOs at reduced pay rates. What is the down side of this for mainline guys? It would seem that it would give them a place to flow back to without any real penalty

 

[Occam's Razor]

You got that part right. Regardless of the "best of intentions," the Across the Tables and general message from the Negotiators and MEC Leadership were extremely misleading. They were in such a hurry to sign any deal that protected their pension, loopholes were left all over the place for management to exploit. If anyone even asked the question on these loopholes, they were brushed off and told "that won't happen." Although I agree with Occam on most issues, I'm sure he'll disagree with me here. We are on different ends of the seniority list though.

Yo! I'm dead-a$$ in the middle of the seniority list...so it's impossible for us to be "on different ends". I'm a Blue dude, just like you. And you also know I've been right in the middle of the food fight over issues like Brand Scope and balancing junior/senior priorities.

I actually agree with you on the reason some of the most senior pilots voted "yes". But those reasons had nothing to do with why I voted "yes". My reasoning was more primal: The pilot group was clearly divided, and there was no way I wanted to attempt a strike/job action with a significant portion of our group unwilling to participate. If the group's split, it's better to have a contract than an imposed deal. [See also: NWA F/A's]

I for one am extremely disappointed with the representation I received--as is nearly everyone on the bottom 1/3 of the list. At least the fat cats at the top keep their $10K+ a month pensions with a 5% DC contribution to boot. The folks at the top of the list will earn triple in retirement what the bottom guys will earn slaving their a$$es off. I'm not upset what the senior guys are making. I'm upset that they sold everyone else in their own personnal self interest to do it.

WORD!

The MEC let us down! Big Time! They knew the group was split and they could've killed the T/A in NYC....but they didn't. They even bragged about having the votes to do it! (grrrr!) That set us up for a lose/LOSE situation. I chose the lower-case lose and voted "yes".

They're also doing this pilot group a grave disservice by not starting the targeted DC right now! If events conspire to take the frozen DB away from us later, they can always re-visit the formula and adjust it to help the senior guys. But to delay the Targeted DC right now is Stoo-pid!

You can quote me! My reps already know where I stand!

 

[Occam's Razor]

So I've been watching this tread go around and around for a few days now, and I've been trying to pull out the important points on bringing together the NWA and MES pilot lists. First if the list were integrated junior main line guys risk being bumped by senior XJ guys. Very junior (less then 5 years) XJ guys would be bumped by furloughed NW guys (if any of them would go back to a regional) Second and IMO more likely, a staple would make senior XJ guys DC-9 or maybe EMB190 FOs at reduced pay rates.

Integration is less problematic or contentious when the "added" list is small (as MSA is right now), and the mainline is understaffed in lower categories (as NWA is right now). Reasonable men can reach an acceptable solution. [Note: I didn't say "reasonable" solution, since "reasonable" is too subjective]

What is the down side of this for mainline guys? It would seem that it would give them a place to flow back to without any real penalty

Flow back has ZERO weight! Mainline pilots don't care about flowback. The issues are two fold: Cost, and the next contract.

 

[Schwanker]

I actually agree with you on the reason some of the most senior pilots voted "yes".

I know you've championed both senior and junior causes in the past. This TA (now contract) was extremely slanted towards senior which is the point of my contention. Now the UN-targeted DC is just an insult on top of it.

To address you're above quote: It's not the reason senior pilots voted "yes" that is disturbing. It's the salesjob by the negotiating committee and MEC leadership that is so disturbing. Again, I don't blame the senior pilots. I blame BD, MM and those who supported their self serving agenda. The "official" information from these folks was extremely biased and self serving. This is where the problem lies. They wouldn't even take the time to address very valid concerns of the junior folks as it would slow down their ability to ratify this POS TA (Contract).

This may seem like a subtle difference, but it's huge as those with the power were tainted. It is these same folks who crammed this TA thru ratification.

I'll leave it here as this is a Compass thread. I know this is being thouroughly debated other places.

As to the Compass argument--I agree.
I better get back to flying my BD-7 so Uncle Sam doesn't chew me out! (BD-7: Big Desk-7 Drawers)
Cheers,
Schwanker

 

[Occam's Razor]

Give me a call sometime and we'll holler at each other for no good reason.

Take care!

 

[YourPilotFriend]

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Integration is less problematic or contentious when the "added" list is small (as MSA is right now), and the mainline is understaffed in lower categories (as NWA is right now). Reasonable men can reach an acceptable solution. [Note: I didn't say "reasonable" solution, since "reasonable" is too subjective]

Why are you pushing integration when we all know it will never happen?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Why are you pushing integration when we all know it will never happen?

Ha! Nice try, Mr. Rainey!

Please go orbit another planet. We know you're not a line pilot, and we know you're not dialed-in to pilot issues. The Fishing Opener is in a few weeks, and Cabela's has a sale on Lindy rigs. Maybe you should try that website for insight?

They'll announce your bonus in a little while.

 

[Schwanker]

Give me a call sometime and we'll holler at each other for no good reason.

Take care!

Will do-
If you can confirm you're the gentleman described in reply #77!

 

[Occam's Razor]

Will do-
If you can confirm you're the gentleman described in reply #77!

"gentleman"?

(snicker)

Man, I'm saving this post!

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Ha! Nice try, Mr. Rainey!

Please go orbit another planet. We know you're not a line pilot, and we know you're not dialed-in to pilot issues. The Fishing Opener is in a few weeks, and Cabela's has a sale on Lindy rigs. Maybe you should try that website for insight?

They'll announce your bonus in a little while.

Don't believe me, why don't you sue for your PID and find out what happens.

 

[737 Pylt]

Hey, I've got an idea. Why don't you try to gum us to death with ALPA's Merger and Alter Ego policy (whatever that is). Maybe I'll get aroused.

I'm sure you, Dan, and Jesse have that market cornered in your arena of the rjdc "get togethers." :blush: :blush: But coming from you, why does that proposal not surpirse me?

Admit it. The mainliners running this "union" have turned it into a dysfunctional, ineffective disaster. When Dan Brannan was running for president of the association last year, he said "management isn't afraid of ALPA anymore" and he's right. In the case of Compass, Mid Atlantic, Comair, ASA, Freedom, GoJet, Mesaba et al, ALPA is actually in management's pocket.

The only thing to admit here is how dysfunctional, ineffective disaster (your words) your lawsuit has gone for you! You pukes are grasping at the straws, and it shows with the desparations in your posts!

As the Alec Guinness character in the movie "Bridge on the River Kwai" realizes in the end, you've built a bridge for the enemy.

I'd say based on your post, you more resemble Ned Beatty in "Deliverance."
With you on the recieving end!

One MEC for one pilot group doing all the flying within the brand. That's where the leverage is. True "collective" bargaining. Labor still has that right under federal law. So why did our union abandon this fundamental principle of organized labor? Ask the mainliners - they got something for it.

I'd say all the growth DCI has gotten for it about sums it all up!
How many hired at the expense of mainline jobs? And yet you still complain!
You are pathetic.
Now back to Dan and something about "gumming" him..I'm sure that's why you and him are so close, huh sparky?

737

How's that lawsuit working out for ya???:laugh: :laugh:

 

[TurboAWD]

Now the UN-targeted DC is just an insult on top of it.

I can't believe that hasn't been fixed. That alone would give me so much heartburn I'd have to go on sick leave.

Turbo