Compass one step closer

[Occam's Razor]

Occam,
You sound a lot like a DC-9 instructor I had several years back--except you use less 4 letter words! Come to think of it, I'm not sure that guy can type--unless he switched to the bus. Schwanker

Was he a studly sort? Devilshly handsome with a rakish sense of humor?

Or was he kind of a smarta$$?

Coulda been me!

 

[Schwanker]

Was he a studly sort? Devilshly handsome with a rakish sense of humor?

Or was he kind of a smarta$$?

Coulda been me!

More of a smara$$. He claimed to have been a military aviator. If I remember correctly, every time he passed gas, it smelled like burnt vaseline! Must have been a Marine.

Have a good one down there in Southern Minnesota!

 

[DoinTime]

I have yet to meet a mainline pilot who understands why this recent round of paycuts had to be so deep. These shortcomings are not endemic to the NW pilot group either.

Occam....maybe you can enlighten us? It really is very simple.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I have yet to meet a mainline pilot who understands why this recent round of paycuts had to be so deep. These shortcomings are not endemic to the NW pilot group either.

Occam....maybe you can enlighten us? It really is very simple.

The balance sheet was adjusted to get a certain target number, which will be greatly exceeded because these cuts were so deep. When investors get wind that an airline is making profit and in a position to merge, they will make billions. Why do you think goldman sachs is buying the debt at almost 100 cents on the dollar?

 

[DoinTime]

The balance sheet was adjusted to get a certain target number, which will be greatly exceeded because these cuts were so deep. When investors get wind that an airline is making profit and in a position to merge, they will make billions. Why do you think goldman sachs is buying the debt at almost 100 cents on the dollar?

While all of that may be true it has nothing to do with why mainline pilots across the country took such huge concessions. Try again.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I have yet to meet a mainline pilot who understands why this recent round of paycuts had to be so deep. These shortcomings are not endemic to the NW pilot group either.

Occam....maybe you can enlighten us? It really is very simple.

Nice try!

You still owe me 300 words on the risk to mainline pilots from integrating Airlink pilots.

I honestly don't think you understand that element of the issue. I'm sure you understand the benefit to you...and I've given you an idea of the potential benefit to mainline pilots, but the key to any sort of intellectual discourse between us on the topic is your understanding on the risks for the "other" guys.

 

[DoinTime]

Nice try!

You still owe me 300 words on the risk to mainline pilots from integrating Airlink pilots.

I honestly don't think you understand that element of the issue. I'm sure you understand the benefit to you...and I've given you an idea of the potential benefit to mainline pilots, but the key to any sort of intellectual discourse between us on the topic is your understanding on the risks for the "other" guys.

#1 - I don't owe you sh*t.

#2 - You didn't answer the question.

 

[Occam's Razor]

"#1 - I don't owe you sh*t."

Thank you!

I was looking for some way to prove my contention that Airlink pilots don't understand the risks to mainline pilots with Brand Scope or list integration...and you've provided it.

It appears you've adopted the exact same attitude toward the issue that you've accused mainline pilots of having.

Are you at least starting to understand my point that one of the biggest roadblocks is an unwillingness of the Airlink pilots to entertain compromise to achieve the long-term goal? I saw it in 2000 with the PID debacle, and here it is again...con brio!

"C'mon, you guys! We're a band of brothers! I would like your help! I don't owe you sh*t."

Classic!

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Obviously the senior pilots at mesaba would not risk going to NWA for first year Sjet rates. If operated at the mainline, first year rate on the crj 900 is $18,000.

 

[N2264J]

Please forgive my brutality. I'm one of the Legacy guys trying to convince my MEC that Single-Carrier Status (a PID) with Mesaba would be a good step toward Brand Scope...and that it would have a benefit for us. That makes it a little tough to take barbs from some who don't think I care.

This guy doesn't seem to know the difference between list integration and Brand Scope. On the one hand, he's seems to be saying that he's a champion for a PID with Mesaba but in 2000, when he could actually cast a vote, he was against the Delta/Comair/ASA PID because of one member's adamant opinion - which, in fact, turned out to be prescient.

Here's what ALPA's Merger and Alter Ego policy said before the October 1998 BODs meeting:

B. ALTER EGO POLICY
SOURCE ‑ Board 1980

1. When the management or stockholders of one airline company form another company
for the purpose of creating a separate airline entity, it shall be called an Alter Ego company for the
purposes of this section.

2. ALPA will oppose the formation of Alter Ego airline companies and will initiate
litigation at every appropriate level to either block their formation or, in the alternative, establish
for collective bargaining purposes that the Alter Ego company and the original company are one
and the same.



If any Mesaba bubbas would want to check it out, I'd bet that all the Northwest reps voted unanimously to change this part of the Admin Manual and replace paragraph one with toothless hyperbole and platitudes about the president petitioning the AFL-CIO to bring sanctions to bear against the anti-labor practice of Alter Egos. By the way, do you think in the last seven years, the president has actually petitioned the AFL-CIO to bring sanctions to bear against the anti-labor practice of Alter Egos? Wouldn't that mean boycotting or embargoing Delta Air Lines, Northwest Airlines, US Airways? You think that's going to happen?

The old Alter Ego policy said that ALPA would sue the company in court to combine the lists. Fundamentally, that's what "collective bargaining" means.
Our forefathers in ALPA understood that in order to have any bargaining leverage, one MEC had to control all the flying.

I'm tired of the "...we have to take baby steps" BS while ALPA let's our quality of life disintegrate around us.

Talk is cheap. Judge them by their actions, not their words.

 

[IHateMgmt]

I wish all you RJDC guys would just go away...

 

[Occam's Razor]

This guy doesn't seem to know the difference between list integration and Brand Scope.

Perhaps a Mesaba pilot (Big Sky), or a Pinnacle pilot (Colgan) could 'splain it to me.

The difference is the number of signatures at the bottom on the contract.

Here's what ALPA's Merger and Alter Ego policy said before the October 1998 BODs meeting:

B. ALTER EGO POLICY
SOURCE ‑ Board 1980

1. When the management or stockholders of one airline company form another company
for the purpose of creating a separate airline entity, it shall be called an Alter Ego company for the
purposes of this section.

2. ALPA will oppose the formation of Alter Ego airline companies and will initiate
litigation at every appropriate level to either block their formation or, in the alternative, establish
for collective bargaining purposes that the Alter Ego company and the original company are one
and the same.

The old Alter Ego policy said that ALPA would sue the company in court to combine the lists. Fundamentally, that's what "collective bargaining" means.

Our forefathers in ALPA understood that in order to have any bargaining leverage, one MEC had to control all the flying.

Oh great! A lecture from someone who thinks Mesaba airlines was started after 1980! [Hint: It ws founded in 1944]

I'm tired of the "...we have to take baby steps" BS while ALPA let's our quality of life disintegrate around us.

Huh? What you have to do is have at least some cogntition of the issues for all the pilots involved...instead of just your narrow, self-serving perspective.

You have no clue what the risks are to mainline pilots. Until you understand those, your cause is hopeless. FYI, it's being made more helpless by Doin' Time's new rallying cry: "#1 - I don't owe you sh*t."

The structure exists to change the status quo...but so far, the leading proponents of change have been too stupid and impatient to convince a majority of ALPA pilots that it's good for all of us.

 

[DoinTime]

Perhaps a Mesaba pilot (Big Sky), or a Pinnacle pilot (Colgan) could 'splain it to me.

The difference is the number of signatures at the bottom on the contract.

That comment proves Occam has no clue what we are talking about. This further proves my hypothesis that most mainline guys have no clue whats going on in this buisness and where the real problems lie.

 

[titans10]

All flying should be down by mainline pilots. However, this is not going to happen.

 

[Occam's Razor]

That comment proves Occam has no clue what we are talking about. This further proves my hypothesis that most mainline guys have no clue whats going on in this buisness and where the real problems lie.

Actually, I think it proves YOU don't. The "number of signatures" relates to who is involved, and who must approve. I kinda thought you'd be sharp enough to figure it out. Bad assumption on my part. I promise not to overestimate your understanding of the issues again!

"#1 - I don't owe you sh*t." - could be the next cool bag tag for Legacy pilots. With full attribution, of course. Maybe add, "Pinnacle Pilot says:"