Compass one step closer

[JoeMerchant]

Because pilots prioritize their own needs before others? Maybe you disagree with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs...but I doubt it.

No, I understand it... most in this union either don't, or don't want to accept it. We aren't all in this together... we are all in this separately. I agree....

You're on the "I want" side of the dance hall. I expect your perspective to be a little different than the "I got" side, but I'm still amused when you RJDC acolytes think problems with getting Brand Scope are due to some sinister source...and not basic human nature.

You are wrong. I don't think there is any "sinister" plot. I never believed in "brand scope" when Duane, McClain, and Wychor were peddling it. I understand human nature better than most, and that is why ALPA will never be much more than an expensive magazine... we are all acting in our own best interests... I know I am, and you admitted you are... we are in agreement there......

The majority of members of ALPA should not decide the proper course of action or policy for the Association?

Got it!

So majority rules? Pure democracy without protections and checks is a dangerous thing. I know you understand that, and I know you know that the US isn't a democracy because of the dangers involved with "majority rules".

It's got a despotic tang to it, but I understand your position. You don't like decisions by the body that are contrary to a belief that you've really, really thought long and hard about...so naturallyh, the only logical recourse is to sue.

I actually understand your position, but that isn't my concern. I am on this side of the fence. You are on your side of the fence. I understand your side, but it isn't my side of the fence. We as ALPA can either tear down the fence, or defend each side of the fence. I suspect we will continue with the latter and give lip service to the former....

 

[JoeMerchant]

I was there.

You didn't listen to me.

I kept whispering, "Dude! Tic Tac!"

Why did it fail? Honest opinion...

 

[Shrek]

The fact is, GoJets is no different than Compass or any other alter-ego carrier, except that it doesn't pay ALPA dues. ALPA is much harder on non-union alter-ego carriers than it is on non-union alter-ego carriers. ALPA doen't really mind whipsaw as long as the whips pay for the privledge...

HUH ?!

 

[JoeMerchant]

HUH ?!

Look up the definition of alter-ego carrier. You will have to look somewhere other than ALPA because ALPA got rid of the definition after DAL bought ASA and CMR. We are all alter-ego carriers, just some of us pay union dues and some of us don't... That is the only real difference...

 

[Occam's Razor]

Why did it fail? Honest opinion...

Because Dan was unwilling to accept anything that didn't match his vision.

He lost my vote when he went into the transmit only mode.

We've hashed it out face-to-face since then, and he still doesn't get it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Because Dan was unwilling to accept anything that didn't match his vision.

He lost my vote when he went into the transmit only mode.

We've hashed it out face-to-face since then, and he still doesn't get it.

Dan was, and is, only a member. I didn't realize the outcome of a PID relied on what a single member was "willing to accept". How does a single member, who isn't a member of the MEC, determine the success of a PID filing? Blaiming the PID failure on Dan is a stretch don't ya think?

It will be interesting to see if you guys pull it off in Snowtown.... after all Dan isn't there to screw it up for you guys....

 

[737 Pylt]

Look up the definition of alter-ego carrier. You will have to look somewhere other than ALPA because ALPA got rid of the definition after DAL bought ASA and CMR. We are all alter-ego carriers, just some of us pay union dues and some of us don't... That is the only real difference...

No dude, you are a wholly owned subsidiary! How many friggin times do you need to be told that??
You are a waste of oxygen!

737

 

[JoeMerchant]

No dude, you are a wholly owned subsidiary! How many friggin times do you need to be told that??
You are a waste of oxygen!

737

I assume your talking about DAL.... ahhh.. we aren't a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta anymore.... keep up would ya.....

However, I hate to break it to you 737, but wholly owned subsidiaries are still alter-egos. GoJet and TSA are both subsidiaries of TSA Holdings. They are alter-ego carriers of each other... just one pays union dues and the other doesn't...

 

[Schwanker]

Hey Joe

Why didn't the NWA MEC agree to the Compass flying going to Mesaba and Pinnacle? Isn't that how "brand scope" is supposed to work????

The reason the NWA MEC didn't agree to send the flying to MSA/Pinnacle:
- NWA was furloughing in mass (approx 900)
- The feeders were hiring like crazy
- NWA flying was being replaced by CRJs
- Furloughees jobs were being taken by new hires at the feeders
- The only protection mainline had was Scope
- The feeders had ZERO interest in flow-back with the right to fly 76 seaters
- Only option to preserve jobs was to start Compass
- If the mainline replacement flying went to the feeders, the NWA MEC wouldn't be representing their members

I'm too lazy to search this from previous threads, but this was clearly illustrated over 2 years ago on this forum (pre-bankruptcy)

It came to this: Either allow NWA furloughees to flowback or forfit your opportunity for larger equipment as a new carrier would be required to fly it.

Schwanker

 

[Schwanker]

To see why a new carrier was required:

See the following threads from 2004:


http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=41620&highlight=pinnacle

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=37377&highlight=pinnacle






This is when some were discussing flowbacks. Without flowbacks, MSA and 7E didn't have a chance to capture this flying.



Schwanker

 

[DoinTime]

The reason the NWA MEC didn't agree to send the flying to MSA/Pinnacle:
- NWA was furloughing in mass (approx 900)
- The feeders were hiring like crazy
- NWA flying was being replaced by CRJs
- Furloughees jobs were being taken by new hires at the feeders
- The only protection mainline had was Scope
- The feeders had ZERO interest in flow-back with the right to fly 76 seaters
- Only option to preserve jobs was to start Compass
- If the mainline replacement flying went to the feeders, the NWA MEC wouldn't be representing their members

I'm too lazy to search this from previous threads, but this was clearly illustrated over 2 years ago on this forum (pre-bankruptcy)

It came to this: Either allow NWA furloughees to flowback or forfit your opportunity for larger equipment as a new carrier would be required to fly it.

Schwanker

Considering that next to no mainline furlougees will take a position with Compass it is evident that your plan failed. Now what is happening is all the drawbacks are being lived by the regional end of ALPA while none of the benefits are being reaped by the mainline end of ALPA. GREAT PLAN!!!

Maybe if the NW pilot group had not contributed to the regional whipsaw the existing regional pilot groups would enjoy enhanced barganing leverage which in turn would boost the salaries and benefits of regional pilots. The more expensive regionals get the less incentive there is for major carriers to contract their services. Without an inexpensive means to secure small aircraft lift mainline pilots will enjoy enhanced negotiating leverage and job security.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Dan was, and is, only a member. I didn't realize the outcome of a PID relied on what a single member was "willing to accept". How does a single member, who isn't a member of the MEC, determine the success of a PID filing? Blaiming the PID failure on Dan is a stretch don't ya think?

Not at all. Dan was a status rep at CMR at the time, and clearly the "spokesmodel" for the group trying to force the PID. I was a status rep too, and was willing to help with the "cause", but only if the group was willing to recognize the risks of a PID to the Legacy pilots.

They didn't then...and still don't.

I've had more luck explaining physics to my dog than getting any of the RJDC zealots to understand the necessity for compromise.

I'd have better luck teaching Osama Christmas carols...

 

[Occam's Razor]

Considering that next to no mainline furlougees will take a position with Compass it is evident that your plan failed.

Using that logic, landing with Alternate fuel on board means your plan failed...

Now what is happening is all the drawbacks are being lived by the regional end of ALPA while none of the benefits are being reaped by the mainline end of ALPA. GREAT PLAN!!!

Oh yeah...no "drawbacks" here! That pay cut I took and the extra days I'm working are "enhancements".

Got it!

The plan was to keep as much of our contract intact as possible, while hitting the Number. As I've posted a few times, when faced with a Sophie's Choice, I freely admit that our committment to protecting you ranks lower than protecting ourselves. If you honestly believe you'd have acted differently, then I'd have to say, "Your s/n fooled me, Mother Theresa!"

Maybe if the NW pilot group had not contributed to the regional whipsaw the existing regional pilot groups would enjoy enhanced barganing leverage which in turn would boost the salaries and benefits of regional pilots.

You make it sound like NWA pilots controlled the process and the environment. Were it only so!

Do YOU have any control over the whipsaw? If you were to Shut 'er Down!, wouldn't that eliminate the ability of NWA to whipsaw our brothers at PCL? What have YOU done for THEM lately? Why won't you swallow a grenade for them and quit your job right now? Don't you think being the only viable Airlink would give them a lot more leverage?

Hmmm?

The more expensive regionals get the less incentive there is for major carriers to contract their services. Without an inexpensive means to secure small aircraft lift mainline pilots will enjoy enhanced negotiating leverage and job security.

I'm sure there's poetry somewhere in the irony of you trying to explain to me the benefits of Brand Scope and my obligation as a mainline guy to make your life better...since I'm one of those who continues to push for them...but right now all I'm reading is stark whining. Forgive me if your prose fails to inspire.

How 'bout you do this: Give me 300 words on the risks of Brand Scope (or list integration) to the mainline pilots. Show me that you understand BOTH sides of the issue, so I know you're not just an opera singer who can only belt out "Me! Me! Me!".

 

[N2264J]

It goes without saying, then, that those who skedaddle during the hard times (we'll calll them "cut-n-runners" to keep it within the vernacular) and seek out lawyers instead of working within the union system lack....what's the word? Oh yeah..."integrity".

Don't talk down your long nose to us about "working within the system."

- At the BOD 2000, resolutions were brought to attempt to put teeth back into ALPA's Merger and Alter Ego policy. What we got for our trouble was the BSIC, ALPA's highest priority. (By the way, how's that Brand Scope workin' out for ya?)

- Before the lawsuit was filed (and after), we sent letters to Duane Woerth and the EC asking for an audience with the Executive Council to air our concerns and got nowhere.

- We met with our local MECs several times and were ignored.

- We filed grievances against the union. They weren't heard. We didn't lose the grievances, they weren't heard.

- We requested a hearing board from ALPA. Nothing.

- We offered to suspend the litigation and enter into mediation or arbitration.
Denied.

- About six months into the litigation, we put a settlement offer on the table and one has been there ever since.

We've been rebuffed at every turn trying to work within the system. Now, ALPA has been in court on the 1113 process saying that Comair is, in fact, integrated with Delta Air Lines. We were saying that in 1999 but the Delta pilots and ALPA denied any operational integration existed and the race-to-the-bottom-alter-ego disaster was on.

"Boo Hoo! That machine gun nest has us pinned down, and I was hoping to make Lance Corporal...I'm gonna sue!" Yeah...this Marine knows EXACTLY what you're talking abouit!

I think you're hysterical and I'm not talking about funny.

Dan was a status rep at CMR at the time...

Dan wasn't a status rep. Try to keep up.

 

[Schwanker]

Occam,
You sound a lot like a DC-9 instructor I had several years back--except you use less 4 letter words! Come to think of it, I'm not sure that guy can type--unless he switched to the bus.

Schwanker

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam,
You sound a lot like a DC-9 instructor I had several years back--except you use less 4 letter words! Come to think of it, I'm not sure that guy can type--unless he switched to the bus. Schwanker

Was he a studly sort? Devilshly handsome with a rakish sense of humor?

Or was he kind of a smarta$$?

Coulda been me!

 

[Schwanker]

Was he a studly sort? Devilshly handsome with a rakish sense of humor?

Or was he kind of a smarta$$?

Coulda been me!

More of a smara$$. He claimed to have been a military aviator. If I remember correctly, every time he passed gas, it smelled like burnt vaseline! Must have been a Marine.

Have a good one down there in Southern Minnesota!

 

[DoinTime]

I have yet to meet a mainline pilot who understands why this recent round of paycuts had to be so deep. These shortcomings are not endemic to the NW pilot group either.

Occam....maybe you can enlighten us? It really is very simple.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I have yet to meet a mainline pilot who understands why this recent round of paycuts had to be so deep. These shortcomings are not endemic to the NW pilot group either.

Occam....maybe you can enlighten us? It really is very simple.

The balance sheet was adjusted to get a certain target number, which will be greatly exceeded because these cuts were so deep. When investors get wind that an airline is making profit and in a position to merge, they will make billions. Why do you think goldman sachs is buying the debt at almost 100 cents on the dollar?

 

[DoinTime]

The balance sheet was adjusted to get a certain target number, which will be greatly exceeded because these cuts were so deep. When investors get wind that an airline is making profit and in a position to merge, they will make billions. Why do you think goldman sachs is buying the debt at almost 100 cents on the dollar?

While all of that may be true it has nothing to do with why mainline pilots across the country took such huge concessions. Try again.

 

[Occam's Razor]

I have yet to meet a mainline pilot who understands why this recent round of paycuts had to be so deep. These shortcomings are not endemic to the NW pilot group either.

Occam....maybe you can enlighten us? It really is very simple.

Nice try!

You still owe me 300 words on the risk to mainline pilots from integrating Airlink pilots.

I honestly don't think you understand that element of the issue. I'm sure you understand the benefit to you...and I've given you an idea of the potential benefit to mainline pilots, but the key to any sort of intellectual discourse between us on the topic is your understanding on the risks for the "other" guys.

 

[DoinTime]

Nice try!

You still owe me 300 words on the risk to mainline pilots from integrating Airlink pilots.

I honestly don't think you understand that element of the issue. I'm sure you understand the benefit to you...and I've given you an idea of the potential benefit to mainline pilots, but the key to any sort of intellectual discourse between us on the topic is your understanding on the risks for the "other" guys.

#1 - I don't owe you sh*t.

#2 - You didn't answer the question.

 

[Occam's Razor]

"#1 - I don't owe you sh*t."

Thank you!

I was looking for some way to prove my contention that Airlink pilots don't understand the risks to mainline pilots with Brand Scope or list integration...and you've provided it.

It appears you've adopted the exact same attitude toward the issue that you've accused mainline pilots of having.

Are you at least starting to understand my point that one of the biggest roadblocks is an unwillingness of the Airlink pilots to entertain compromise to achieve the long-term goal? I saw it in 2000 with the PID debacle, and here it is again...con brio!

"C'mon, you guys! We're a band of brothers! I would like your help! I don't owe you sh*t."

Classic!

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Obviously the senior pilots at mesaba would not risk going to NWA for first year Sjet rates. If operated at the mainline, first year rate on the crj 900 is $18,000.

 

[N2264J]

Please forgive my brutality. I'm one of the Legacy guys trying to convince my MEC that Single-Carrier Status (a PID) with Mesaba would be a good step toward Brand Scope...and that it would have a benefit for us. That makes it a little tough to take barbs from some who don't think I care.

This guy doesn't seem to know the difference between list integration and Brand Scope. On the one hand, he's seems to be saying that he's a champion for a PID with Mesaba but in 2000, when he could actually cast a vote, he was against the Delta/Comair/ASA PID because of one member's adamant opinion - which, in fact, turned out to be prescient.

Here's what ALPA's Merger and Alter Ego policy said before the October 1998 BODs meeting:

B. ALTER EGO POLICY
SOURCE ‑ Board 1980

1. When the management or stockholders of one airline company form another company
for the purpose of creating a separate airline entity, it shall be called an Alter Ego company for the
purposes of this section.

2. ALPA will oppose the formation of Alter Ego airline companies and will initiate
litigation at every appropriate level to either block their formation or, in the alternative, establish
for collective bargaining purposes that the Alter Ego company and the original company are one
and the same.



If any Mesaba bubbas would want to check it out, I'd bet that all the Northwest reps voted unanimously to change this part of the Admin Manual and replace paragraph one with toothless hyperbole and platitudes about the president petitioning the AFL-CIO to bring sanctions to bear against the anti-labor practice of Alter Egos. By the way, do you think in the last seven years, the president has actually petitioned the AFL-CIO to bring sanctions to bear against the anti-labor practice of Alter Egos? Wouldn't that mean boycotting or embargoing Delta Air Lines, Northwest Airlines, US Airways? You think that's going to happen?

The old Alter Ego policy said that ALPA would sue the company in court to combine the lists. Fundamentally, that's what "collective bargaining" means.
Our forefathers in ALPA understood that in order to have any bargaining leverage, one MEC had to control all the flying.

I'm tired of the "...we have to take baby steps" BS while ALPA let's our quality of life disintegrate around us.

Talk is cheap. Judge them by their actions, not their words.

 

[IHateMgmt]

I wish all you RJDC guys would just go away...

 

[Occam's Razor]

This guy doesn't seem to know the difference between list integration and Brand Scope.

Perhaps a Mesaba pilot (Big Sky), or a Pinnacle pilot (Colgan) could 'splain it to me.

The difference is the number of signatures at the bottom on the contract.

Here's what ALPA's Merger and Alter Ego policy said before the October 1998 BODs meeting:

B. ALTER EGO POLICY
SOURCE ‑ Board 1980

1. When the management or stockholders of one airline company form another company
for the purpose of creating a separate airline entity, it shall be called an Alter Ego company for the
purposes of this section.

2. ALPA will oppose the formation of Alter Ego airline companies and will initiate
litigation at every appropriate level to either block their formation or, in the alternative, establish
for collective bargaining purposes that the Alter Ego company and the original company are one
and the same.

The old Alter Ego policy said that ALPA would sue the company in court to combine the lists. Fundamentally, that's what "collective bargaining" means.

Our forefathers in ALPA understood that in order to have any bargaining leverage, one MEC had to control all the flying.

Oh great! A lecture from someone who thinks Mesaba airlines was started after 1980! [Hint: It ws founded in 1944]

I'm tired of the "...we have to take baby steps" BS while ALPA let's our quality of life disintegrate around us.

Huh? What you have to do is have at least some cogntition of the issues for all the pilots involved...instead of just your narrow, self-serving perspective.

You have no clue what the risks are to mainline pilots. Until you understand those, your cause is hopeless. FYI, it's being made more helpless by Doin' Time's new rallying cry: "#1 - I don't owe you sh*t."

The structure exists to change the status quo...but so far, the leading proponents of change have been too stupid and impatient to convince a majority of ALPA pilots that it's good for all of us.

 

[DoinTime]

Perhaps a Mesaba pilot (Big Sky), or a Pinnacle pilot (Colgan) could 'splain it to me.

The difference is the number of signatures at the bottom on the contract.

That comment proves Occam has no clue what we are talking about. This further proves my hypothesis that most mainline guys have no clue whats going on in this buisness and where the real problems lie.

 

[titans10]

All flying should be down by mainline pilots. However, this is not going to happen.

 

[Occam's Razor]

That comment proves Occam has no clue what we are talking about. This further proves my hypothesis that most mainline guys have no clue whats going on in this buisness and where the real problems lie.

Actually, I think it proves YOU don't. The "number of signatures" relates to who is involved, and who must approve. I kinda thought you'd be sharp enough to figure it out. Bad assumption on my part. I promise not to overestimate your understanding of the issues again!

"#1 - I don't owe you sh*t." - could be the next cool bag tag for Legacy pilots. With full attribution, of course. Maybe add, "Pinnacle Pilot says:"