Compass agreement

[mynameisjim]

Is that in writing somewhere? I know it makes sense, I know many Compass pilots feel that way, but is that the official position of the Compass pilots?

I'm not sure there is anything official. It is a grassroots effort because Compass has no voting union representation.

Basically this is not something the Compass pilots can do. They just brought up the idea and hope some Delta pilots run with it.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

There is not issue with the Ford-Cooksey settlement with CPS. Now OH and the rest are ALPA carriers that fall under the settlement agreements of Ford-Cooksey. I am not saying that it cannot be done, you just will need to deal with those hurdles first.
Also you need to note the special differences between CPS and the other DCI carriers.
-Bilateral Flow
-DAL pilots own every seat at CPS, not so with Mesaba.
-For now we share the same MEC.

 

[General Lee]

Is that in writing somewhere? I know it makes sense, I know many Compass pilots feel that way, but is that the official position of the Compass pilots?

Why? Do they want to negotiate something? If so, I say "who cares?" No negotiations. Those E175 seats are not theirs, but rather they are holding them for possible furloughs in the future. They knew that when they interviewed. Offering them something other than a staple would be ridiculous. I talked to a commuting CPZ pilot and he said we should "do this" so we could get some future E190s. I told him we already had a rate for that, and that we didn't need to staple them to get them. If Delta ever wants something larger than 76 seats, then they would have to go through us. It would be nice to staple those guys to give our bottom guys more people beneath them, but it is not necessary since we already have the flow down. But, if one CPZ guy is put ahead of one current mainline pilot, I think a lot of guys will be outraged. You need to remind the MEC that please. I have tried.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[NuGuy]

Ok, so I understand all the issues about why Compass was created.. direct taking of mainline jobs etc.. but if Compass was going to be "stapled" what about Comair and Mesaba? Also wholly owned.. and in addition to them, then ASA and Pinnacle who fly solely for DAL/NWA? All of these carriers have a stake in the 76 seat flying which took mainline jobs, and all of these carriers are also ALPA.. would they be included in any possible staple? Or left out of it?

Heyas,

When Comair, ASA, Pinnacle and who ever decide that they are going to put ALL of their seats up for grabs for flow downs, no questions asked, then they get a seat at the table.

Until then, they have no where near the stake invested that the CPZ guys have.

To get the great reward, you need to man up at the poker table. If not, then STFU, and put in an app like everyone else.

Nu

 

[jonjuan]

Heyas,

When Comair, ASA, Pinnacle and who ever decide that they are going to put ALL of their seats up for grabs for flow downs, no questions asked, then they get a seat at the table.

Until then, they have no where near the stake invested that the CPZ guys have.

To get the great reward, you need to man up at the poker table. If not, then STFU, and put in an app like everyone else.

Nu

Just how much of a risk was this really for the cps pilots, many of whom are recent newhires and previously furloughed from expressjet, eagle, comair, etc? C'mon-it's not as though compass were a career destination. In fact, many went there to go after the quick upgrade to a regional/mainline aircraft.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

and flow to NWA and now Delta.

 

[Monster Buck]

Why? Do they want to negotiate something? If so, I say "who cares?" No negotiations. Those E175 seats are not theirs, but rather they are holding them for possible furloughs in the future. They knew that when they interviewed. Offering them something other than a staple would be ridiculous. I talked to a commuting CPZ pilot and he said we should "do this" so we could get some future E190s. I told him we already had a rate for that, and that we didn't need to staple them to get them. If Delta ever wants something larger than 76 seats, then they would have to go through us. It would be nice to staple those guys to give our bottom guys more people beneath them, but it is not necessary since we already have the flow down. But, if one CPZ guy is put ahead of one current mainline pilot, I think a lot of guys will be outraged. You need to remind the MEC that please. I have tried.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I agree with you but we have a rate for CRJ 900's also and we know we didn't get them. Food for thought. Not saying that a 900 and 190 are the same but we have a rate for both.

 

[Max Powers]

Here is some info. Take it for what it is worth. I went to one of the Phase of Flight meetings with the company suits. Any Delta guys that haven't gone and think it is a waste of time I think you would be surprised. It was actually very informative. During the Q&A at the end the subjects turned to the company, scope and possible furloughs. I brought up the flow back in my questioning about the how it would go. Some suit stepped in(so many I forgot which one it was) and said "look....with the fuel savings, the large amount of cash we have and synergies we would have to go to 20 percent under to even take that direction. BTW he said 9-11 knocked them back 12 %. He also said above and beyond it is a 18-24 months to START to gain on a furlough due to the process. Also he said with all the work that still has to be done to combine the two pilot operations, the last thing they need is to deal with is the hell that comes with furloughing a few hundred guys. Also they are still short(albeit slightly) for summer '09 and summer '10 which is still going to have a 1% rise over '09. He said we will offers some sills for fall and that is it. We are not going to furlough unless we get hit with twice what 9-11 did to us.

Blah blah blah.......I'm looking at the reduction numbers and I'm not buying what they are selling. As far as using 9-11 as a comparison many are saying this recent turn down is worse than 9-11.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

Mesaba and Pinnacle had their chance in '02. Their membership allowed the 5 or 6 squeaky wheels to torpedo the whole thing.

They were -><- close to the golden ring. But NWA wasn't going to sign off on a deal like this for free. Was there a price to be paid? You bet...and about %80 of it was going to be paid by the mainline NWA guys.

The XJ and 9E guys were going to have to pony up the %20 balance at the table, but had the most upside potential. But the lifers wouldn't budge with the attitude "why should we pay ANYTHING...we don't want to flow". They were trying to press a bad hand, with the junior pilot's chips.

Guess what, now their junior Airlink (now DCI) guys are paying the price in so many ways, it's hard to count. Not only is there no flow, but the job security and whipsaw prevention that came with an all inclusive deal is gone, and all you hear about in the regional section is guys b!tching about who is stealing who's flying.

It would have been a great deal for all involved, but as is typical, you get a few individuals that tanked the whole deal because, gosh, they MIGHT have to temporarily give up something for the greater good.

So I don't want to hear it. You guys had your chance, and your leadership blew it. So when the NWA guys were forced in BQ to put something together, we made sure we had our end all setup that couldn't be sunk by a few guys who didn't want to play ball.

The NWA guys paid (that's right, with OUR concessions) to structure CPZ the way they did for a reason. IF a deal happens, and that's IF, you can bet we get paid back first. And if we decide that means bringing on the CPZ guys first, well, then, tough turkey.

Nu

 

[SpauldingSmails]

On a side note, has anyone seen March load factor numbers yet for DAL? The unofficial counter on Compass' website shows a CPZ LF of damn near 80% for the month.

Although 80% is not unheard of (not too hard with only 76 butts), it amazes me. For all those stupid flights I've done with only 30 people on board, there need to be so many other nearly full flights to bring those averages back.

I also heard that air freight numbers appeared to have bottomed as well in March, showing no further decline over Feb. *fingers crossed*

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Heyas,

When Comair, ASA, Pinnacle and who ever decide that they are going to put ALL of their seats up for grabs for flow downs, no questions asked, then they get a seat at the table.

Until then, they have no where near the stake invested that the CPZ guys have.

To get the great reward, you need to man up at the poker table. If not, then STFU, and put in an app like everyone else.

Nu

Well said. Of course, I tried to say something similar on the regional board last night and more or less had my ass handed to me by the problem children. If playing nice doesn't work, then I'm pretty much at the point of being willing to "ask once then take by force if necessary" when it comes to recapturing outsourced flying.

The problem is not about having the fortitude to fight to recapture scope. The problem is that our leadership has no interest in fighting this fight.

 

[BlueRidger]

Compass Pilots do not want DOH only a staple. Even if DOH happened it wsould still be essentially a staple. Most crewmembers were hired after NWA and DAL stopped hiring. We were all aware of how the flow through works and what we want is fair representation. We are part of an MEC that is supposed to look out for OUR best intrests. We pay Dues to the DALPA MEC. All of the other regionals do not. This is the crux what is wrong and needs to be addressed. I guess I will have to run for the DTW LEC rep and see how that shakes out. If I cannot vote or even run then it is proof of an illeagal setup and the choice become to add us to the seniority list or spin us off. Obviously most of us would rather not be spun off. If we spun off then the NWA concession that created Compass becomes permanent and management wins again. Bottom Line Staple Compass and the MEC is fullfilling it obligation to do what is best for its members.

 

[clippyrip]

C'mon-it's not as though compass were a career destination.

My man, if we can get them on mainline, it will turn out to have been the career regional.

 

[clippyrip]

Heyas,

Mesaba and Pinnacle had their chance in '02. Their membership allowed the 5 or 6 squeaky wheels to torpedo the whole thing.

They were -><- close to the golden ring. But NWA wasn't going to sign off on a deal like this for free. Was there a price to be paid? You bet...and about %80 of it was going to be paid by the mainline NWA guys.

The XJ and 9E guys were going to have to pony up the %20 balance at the table, but had the most upside potential. But the lifers wouldn't budge with the attitude "why should we pay ANYTHING...we don't want to flow". They were trying to press a bad hand, with the junior pilot's chips.

Guess what, now their junior Airlink (now DCI) guys are paying the price in so many ways, it's hard to count. Not only is there no flow, but the job security and whipsaw prevention that came with an all inclusive deal is gone, and all you hear about in the regional section is guys b!tching about who is stealing who's flying.

It would have been a great deal for all involved, but as is typical, you get a few individuals that tanked the whole deal because, gosh, they MIGHT have to temporarily give up something for the greater good.

So I don't want to hear it. You guys had your chance, and your leadership blew it. So when the NWA guys were forced in BQ to put something together, we made sure we had our end all setup that couldn't be sunk by a few guys who didn't want to play ball.

The NWA guys paid (that's right, with OUR concessions) to structure CPZ the way they did for a reason. IF a deal happens, and that's IF, you can bet we get paid back first. And if we decide that means bringing on the CPZ guys first, well, then, tough turkey.

Nu

You speeketh the truth brother.

 

[Fly4hire]

One of the fly's in the ointment is the other wholly owned DCI's saying "me too". I heard this argument at a LEC meeting the other day - lots of discussion over experience, and that CPZ is not unique and should not have special status in consideration of any eventual integration. Very well - we all know there are very qualified pilots at the other DCI's, and there will be an uproar from the other ALPA reprsented DCI's, especially in light of the FFD initiative in ALPA right now.

One thing lost in this arguement, regardless of experience, who's been around longer, etc, is that the creation of CPZ was bought and paid for by the NWA pilots as furlough protection during the BK bargaining.

That in itself, regardless of any other piont makes them uniquie - a carrier formed from it's inception to be a safe haven in the event of mainline furloughs. As NU said, until they pony up an unrestricted biateral flow, AND pass a NWA (DAL) interview like the CPZ pilots did, it's off the table.

This effort is not to exclude anyone. The question will have to be dealt with eventually. Even considering the CPZ question is killing a heard of sacred cows, and CPZ is relatively low hanging fruit.

Mention and of the other DCI'sd in the equation at this point, and it will be DOA.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

See that is our (DALPA's) goal. They want to have bilateral flows with five DCI carriers. The alpa carriers. They think they can get this.
Well, if they do this then what. We flow there, they flow here. The MEC per my understanding will see no need to bring that flying back. In essence the DAL pilots will own all of those seats either way. It just make a bigger push to outsource more flying to DCI which will be the B scale of DAL airlines.
In a perfect world we would need all airplanes over 69 seats to be on the mainline side of the list. If not, we will have just screwed ourselves with scope again.

 

[Monster Buck]

Blah blah blah.......I'm looking at the reduction numbers and I'm not buying what they are selling. As far as using 9-11 as a comparison many are saying this recent turn down is worse than 9-11.

Now you are comparing the whole country's downturn to 9-11. That's not what they or I said. What they gave was the 9-11 effect on Delta. Also, what Delta reduction numbers are you talking about? I not saying that numbers can't be manipulated or I am taking it to the bank but they put up the performance and reduction numbers on the screen when they were speaking. This was a response to our condition and possibilities of furloughs. Nothing more. It wasn't a balance sheet report. Things are not the same at all airlines right now. Some other small lcc's with furloughed pilots might not be in the same position.

 

[Fly4hire]

See that is our (DALPA's) goal. They want to have bilateral flows with five DCI carriers. The alpa carriers. They think they can get this.
Well, if they do this then what. We flow there, they flow here. The MEC per my understanding will see no need to bring that flying back.

Bi -lateral flows with the other DCI's - good.

Bi-lateral flows as an excuse not to pursue bringing the flying back, or worse yet allow further outsourcing - unacceptable.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Exactly. If that is the ave that the union takes, it needs to be done very carefully, as it could lead to further scope erosion.

 

[Moustache]

All this Compass stuff going on, i assume it would be a straight staple. I am a Delta North guy, and there is NO F**king way a compass pilot will be senior to any Delta (N or S) pilot.

No kidding!!!!!!!!!!!