Coming up on 94 hours of Standby for the Month.

[NJACrewservicer]

Ah, the old "a few guys defecate in their trousers so we all have to wear diapers now" routine.:nuts:

I guess the alternative would be to get a list together of the guys that just "don't seem to get it" and tape it to the cubical wall with the title..."NO HOTEL SHOWS"

That way every pilot that walks through the SOC has the opportunity to see that 'management' is "discriminating" against certain individuals...that ought to go over real well with the Union. :erm:

 

[Diesel]

Or just punish the guys specifically that screw up. Not the whole company.

Just like we know which FM's are a holes and hang up and redial till we get the right one..... Remember the Tagni days?

 

[NJACrewservicer]

Or just punish the guys specifically that screw up. Not the whole company.

Just like we know which FM's are a holes and hang up and redial till we get the right one..... Remember the Tagni days?

You know....sometimes it actually isn't the crew members fault that it takes several hours. There could be honest hotel issues, transportation issues etc that prevent the crew member from arriving within the allotted time frame.

....and contrary to popular belief, we understand that. So, it's hard to "punish" (don't know if that is the correct terminology) those crewmembers because of a vendor/3rd party errors. Thus, it's just easier to accomodate the owner if we get the good crew/good airplane to be at the airport when legal.


Or, it could be that I'm just talking out of my a$$ because I don't work in that department. It's all speculation on my part. Who know's....maybe you're correct with the availability matrix that your claiming.

And yes, I remember the Togni days. Believe it or not...he busted his butt and had a great work ethic. His social skills needed a little work....but his intentions were good.

 

[Diesel]

Actually I didn't mind togni. You knew that when you called him although he was gruff whatever you said to him was going to get done to a T.

People just needed to get thicker skin when dealing with him. Bunch of bitchy pilots.

I find it amazing that the same company has two different approaches to crew stby.

 

[realityman]

"Abused" Now that's funny!!:laugh:

Yes, most of these FBO's certainly are similar to the dungeons used during the inquisition.

I'm sitting standby right now. These cushy chairs are too plush. I keep sinking comfortably into them, which makes it hard to get up when I need to. And when it's reclined?! Forgedabouddit!!

And these bigs screen, flat-panel TV's with the gazillion channels to choose from, well, how's a person supposed to choose what to watch? And really, it's hard to see the whole screen at once when they're that big! Bastards!

I don't even want to talk about the crew food I 'have' to eat when on standby at the FBO! I mean, come on!! I run all those miles to stay in shape, and then the company throws free food at me! This kind of abuse MUST STOP!!! Or we'll all be suffering from normal blood-sugar levels sooner than we want to.

And the computers and free wi-fi provided for our 'conevenience'? Who do they thing they're kidding!! You put a computer with internet in front of ANY pilot, and it's practically manadatory that he'll be typing his way to carpal tunnel before you can say 'overtime'. OSHA!! I want OSHA!!!

And worst of all, should the company actually need us to fly, our response time will be at least an hour quicker than if we were at the hotel. Know what that means? Client expectations will be WAY TOO HIGH!!! I can't believe they'd allow this to happen!!

And all this for only a six figure salary every year?! How dare they!!!

People, THE ABUSE MUST STOP!!!!

We MUST be allowed to listen to the maid in the next room with the vacuum cleaner! We MUST be allowed to remain in a RECLINED position on a BED! We MUST be allowed to buy our own meals! Heck, we simply MUST be allowed to make our own schedules and run things the way WE SEE FIT!!!

Fight for your rights!! Or soon you too may find yourself being ABUSED like us Netjets pilots!!!

 

[ozpilot]

You make some good points realityman, but not all FBO's are as you describe - ever sat standby at ACK or JFK?

The other issue is that - now this may come as a shock to those who know me - but I don't look my best when I greet an owner after sitting for 6+ hours in a lazy boy. At least if I'm on standby at the hotel I can come to the plane rested, shaven, and with a fresh shirt on!

Having said that I've volunteered to go to the FBO to save having to pay for another night charge at the hotel.

And it was at ACK! Company wanted us to show at 1400. Check out time was 1100. Hotel wanted another $350 per pilot to stay an additional 3 hours. We showed early. I try and work with the schedulers if I can see a better way of doing things . I just get the impression that they often won't work with me.

 

[Diesel]

Well I guess we found "I never get fatigued." guy.

Let me know what the FBO ahem port authority new york new jersey is at JFK.

Good luck with doing that for 5 days.

 

[Way2Broke]

I use to do about 432 hours a month on a 25 minute call out. :laugh:

 

[realityman]

Well I guess we found "I never get fatigued." guy.

Let me know what the FBO ahem port authority new york new jersey is at JFK.

Good luck with doing that for 5 days.

Actually, I fatigue out plenty. And I don't know ANYONE who has been stuck doing standby at JFK for more than a day, let alone 5. If it happens to you, then I'd be tracking down the person in scheduling whose cereal you pissed in and apologize!

I agree, there are some FBO's that aren't the most comfortable around. It's true.

But MOST offer all the amenities you would find at the hotel, and then some.

When I know that the FBO at a certain location is pure crap I can usually work with the company to get at least some hotel show before heading to the airport.

Usually, though, I just do what they want because, again, most FBO's offer a comfortable way to pass the time.

 

[av8tor4239]

reality man.. i cant believe I agree with you!!!

I think that people that have been at NJ for a while dont understand the state of the aviation industry and therefore do not appreciate what they have here...

If they want you to sit stanby in an FBO for 12 hours.. then for christ sake make the best of it, collect your pay check and go home!

 

[Diesel]

Realityman-

You enjoy your fbo stby, i'll enjoy my hotel stby.

And I don't have to listen to the guy in the chair next to me snoring or watching the military channel.

 

[ozpilot]

or better yet Fox News ...

 

[realityman]

or better yet Fox News ...

Uh, yeah.:erm: I'm gonna have to concede this point. Big screen TV's with a gazillion channels and every single time I walk into the lounge it's Fox news. Ugh.

But you can't blame the schedulers for other pilots' lack of imagination when it comes to what channel to watch!

Diesel, I think you're just too used to the FBO lounges in Maine! Trust me, most of the rest of the country's FBO's have INDOOR plumbing!!:laugh:

Ah well. I'm sitting standby at Million Air in CMH right now. Heading back to the cushy recliner chair to do a little reading. Maybe I'll stop and grab some free cookies and drinks before going to the lounge. I must just be a glutton for punishment!:beer:

 

[172driver]

Actually, I fatigue out plenty. And I don't know ANYONE who has been stuck doing standby at JFK for more than a day, let alone 5. If it happens to you, then I'd be tracking down the person in scheduling whose cereal you pissed in and apologize!

I have been scheduled to sit multiple days of standby at JFK more than once. It didn't happen. The company will usually listen if you talk to the right people. If not, we have other tools at our disposal.

 

[NJACrewservicer]

Just had a guy fatigue that was given 16 hours of rest...2 hours at the hotel on duty...show at the fbo 1 hour prior to flight...did a .9 rev leg...then fatigued.

:crying:

 

[pilot22]

I have question for when you are sitting standby for so many hours. Do any of these FBOs have a place where you can work out (treadmill, bike etc) and can you take off and go for a run around the block?

 

[kman]

You know what? Why Don't we make it mandatory to sit at the fbo after 10hrs of rest? If its so great to just stuff ur face, surf the net and watch tv, then on ur next 12 hour overnight ask them to bring u back out to the fbo early, so that you can cover the backup to the back up to the backup.
GO A TEAMERS!!! GO!!!

There was a point last month when we had 4 xls and 2 ultras crew sitting in TUS? (another 3 were sitting in SDL and PHX)FOR WHAT? WTF! Guess we had to cover everything west of the Mississippi from TUS.

Yes the have tv, snacks, and internet. But I rather be in shorts and a tshirt, have my own choice of programming to watch, a semi real gym, a shower, privacy, go for a run, go for a swim, order and eat a real meal that doesn't have a plastic see through top on it, and the ability to take a nap in a real bed.

My Point is, yes we need some crews to standby, but there has to be a limit and some kind of accountability if the company is abusing crews with crew rot.

 

[CA1900]

Just had a guy fatigue that was given 16 hours of rest...2 hours at the hotel on duty...show at the fbo 1 hour prior to flight...did a .9 rev leg...then fatigued.

:crying:

Just to play devil's advocate here...

16 hours of rest sounds like a major shift to the circadian rhythm, which may be what prompted that fatigue call. Also, as I'm sure you're aware, hotels are not particularly restful places during day light hours. Maids slamming doors, footsteps shaking the hallways (more an issue in cheap hotels), and so on. So if the bulk of the rest period was in the daytime, that may be the issue.

Hypothetically, let's say I'm that crewmember who called in. I work from 10am to 11pm on this duty day. That means I got up around 8am to get ready, eat breakfast, etc., and did 13 hours of duty, and probably got settled into the hotel around midnight.

Now scheduling gives me 16 hours of rest, which means I'm coming to work at 3pm -- actually 5pm, when you add in the two hours of hotel duty. Do you really think I can just "reprogram" my body to wake up 7 hours later on a whim? I can't. And I'm going to get hungry and probably wake up long before that, because the breakfast and lunch periods from the day prior have passed while I was theoretically sleeping.

My point is, I'm going to be dog tired at midnight, and go right to bed. That means I'm probably going to get up around 8am, regardless of the time I was scheduled to start duty. And from that point on, the clock's ticking. By dinner time, yeah, I'm probably going to be cooked, even though I "only did a .9 rev leg."

While I'm always happy to get a long overnight like that, from a productivity standpoint, I'd have been better off with 12 hours than 18 at the hotel. (36 would be even better, but that's probably asking a bit much.)

You're not going to get a full day out of me after you shift my sleep pattern, in either direction. I'll do my best as I always do, and the quality of rest I got (i.e., was it a quiet/comfortable hotel) will have an impact on how much energy I'll have. But I'm not going to fly groggy. It absolutely isn't safe, for us or our owners.

 

[Hawkered]

If you don't like it; leave! There's no shortage of flying to be had. Are you some sort of a problem child?

BTW, stay off this freakin' board talking crap about our company; you've got a union to hear you whine.

It could be a lot worse. You could be taking a bullet in the backside for your country in the sandpit. You whiners make me sick!

 

[fob727]

Bad day, huh?

 

[realityman]

You know what? Why Don't we make it mandatory to sit at the fbo after 10hrs of rest? If its so great to just stuff ur face, surf the net and watch tv, then on ur next 12 hour overnight ask them to bring u back out to the fbo early, so that you can cover the backup to the back up to the backup.
GO A TEAMERS!!! GO!!!

There was a point last month when we had 4 xls and 2 ultras crew sitting in TUS? (another 3 were sitting in SDL and PHX)FOR WHAT? WTF! Guess we had to cover everything west of the Mississippi from TUS.

Yes the have tv, snacks, and internet. But I rather be in shorts and a tshirt, have my own choice of programming to watch, a semi real gym, a shower, privacy, go for a run, go for a swim, order and eat a real meal that doesn't have a plastic see through top on it, and the ability to take a nap in a real bed.

My Point is, yes we need some crews to standby, but there has to be a limit and some kind of accountability if the company is abusing crews with crew rot.

Nice spin, KMAN! I never said I wanted to spend my rest time at the FBO. What I said, and you seem to have a hard time comprehending through that bitter I-hate-life attitude, is that if they send me to the FBO WHEN I'M ON DUTY, most of the FBO's in this country are a fairly nice place to hang around.

Sounds like you were really hoping this job at NJA would turn out to be one big long paid vacation, right? Now you're angry when it turns out that it's not. Wahhh!! They won't let me do what I want when I'm on duty! Wahhh!!! Heck, in your list of stuff you'd like to do during your hotel duty you forgot to mention windsurfing and barhopping.

So according to you, if I do what I'm told to because I'm being paid a nice salary to do it, that makes me an A-teamer? Anybody that isn't totally unhappy with the job is an A-teamer? Puh-lease!

Look, this job isn't for everyone. It sure doesn't seem to be for you. So what are you still doing here?

Really, we have tools to deal with excessive sitting around. I agree totally that long boring waits in FBO's is tiring. So big deal. Call fatigued when you're too tired to fly. There's no penalty for it. It isn't your job to worry how it will affect operations. It's only your job to knwo your own limits. I expect that if enough people call fatigued while sitting at FBO's, then maybe we'll see more hotel shows.

I was scheduled to sit standby at 0500 this morning. Called and got a few more hours at the hotel with a hotel show. They aren't totally unreasonable.

And I really wonder how it is you knowabout all the planes and crews sitting standby at the airports near you. Are you really such a busybody that you have to inquire into everyone's business? Are you one of those guys who's always in the phone buggin the FM's about what's going on today, tomorrow, what other planes are nearby, who you're backing up, and so on?

Most FBO standby isn't so bad. Boring, yes. But it's not a vacation. It's work.

 

[Diesel]

Just had a guy fatigue that was given 16 hours of rest...2 hours at the hotel on duty...show at the fbo 1 hour prior to flight...did a .9 rev leg...then fatigued.

:crying:

And its that tone right there is what gives the people upstairs a bad name. You didn't give us his preceding days duty just made a blanket comment hoping to get a rise and say look at these whiney bitchy pilots.

Lets take what I've been doing for the last couple of days. Sure its been stby but our on times have been setting us up for night flights. Then this morning its a 9am show, but for the last 5 days I've been shut off at midnight so now I have to reprogram my body and say you're not sleeping in now you're getting up.

I toss, I turn I look at the clock and say to myself if I go to bed right now I can still pull off 5hrs of sleep. Toss turn, adjust the thermostat, 4 hrs I can get 4 hrs if I go to bed right now. Oh please let me go to sleep.

So yeah our sleep gets messed up and this is a domestic trip. But I wouldn't condemn the crew until you've walked a mile in their shoes, stayed at the hotel and specifically talked to them.

We're type A personalities. We want to get the job done. Unfortunately my body sometimes isn't in sync with my mind.

 

[av8tor4239]

You know what? Why Don't we make it mandatory to sit at the fbo after 10hrs of rest? If its so great to just stuff ur face, surf the net and watch tv, then on ur next 12 hour overnight ask them to bring u back out to the fbo early, so that you can cover the backup to the back up to the backup.
GO A TEAMERS!!! GO!!!

There was a point last month when we had 4 xls and 2 ultras crew sitting in TUS? (another 3 were sitting in SDL and PHX)FOR WHAT? WTF! Guess we had to cover everything west of the Mississippi from TUS.

Yes the have tv, snacks, and internet. But I rather be in shorts and a tshirt, have my own choice of programming to watch, a semi real gym, a shower, privacy, go for a run, go for a swim, order and eat a real meal that doesn't have a plastic see through top on it, and the ability to take a nap in a real bed.

My Point is, yes we need some crews to standby, but there has to be a limit and some kind of accountability if the company is abusing crews with crew rot.

You truly are an idiot... you obviously do not understand the nature of the job... my recomendation to you is to quit NetJets and go work for a 121 carrier.. I heard MESA was hiring..you would fit in great over there

 

[kman]

Same old stuff, If you don't like it leave? Why not try to make things better?

Of course it could be worse, we could all be flipping burgers or worse flying for mesa.

Name calling, Wow that just shows what a true professional you are. I really hit that nerve with you guys when I speak the truth.

NJA is a great place to be, I just think there still is room for improvement.

What is the use of having so many crews on standby?

Alloy ample coverage for the trips that we get and any pop ups that happen.

What don't I understand? Hey if Im actually being used for a reason, I totally understand, but when we are the 5th crew on standby and have a trip early in the am, why keep us on? I can't count the number on times they could have gave us a standby all the way up to a 10hr turn.

And I don't bother the pm s, I just call a buddy of mine in cmh, when scheduling gets plain stupid.

Its just funny how if anybody complains about anything related to NJA, they get pounced on. Guess I don't have the right to state my opinion? Can any of you guys dispute that we don't get scheduled to standby just for our numbers to look good?

 

[Willy21]

Because the contract says they can.[/COLOR]

Alloy ample coverage for the trips that we get and any pop ups that happen.

What don't I understand? Hey if Im actually being used for a reason, I totally understand, but when we are the 5th crew on standby and have a trip early in the am, why keep us on? I can't count the number on times they could have gave us a standby all the way up to a 10hr turn. Again this is because the contract says they can.

As Olsen said so many times during IBB, "It is what it is." Maybe things will change in the future, but for now you are just spinning you wheels for nothing more than spinning your wheels.

Face it, they own us until day seven at midnight, or whenever your schedule ends. Do I dislike how they schedule me sometimes, you bet. But bottom line is until midnight on day seven they own me. If I am tired I fatigue. If I am hungry I get crew food. After I have eaten and slept I am back at it again until midnight on day seven. It is what it is.

 

[realityman]

KMAN,

I also never said scheduling doesn't do stupid things. And that some things seem wasteful. Maybe I'm just tired of trying to fix the stupid.

So, I go sit at the FBO when they want me to. If I get too tired to fly, I fatigue. If that causes difficulties for them, not my problem. Like I said, if enough folks call fatigued, maybe useless standby will stop.

Meanwhile though, how does whining about it help? If you have a real problem with it, why not take it to our union? What's the point of bugging anyone in CMH to find out who else is sitting standby in your vicinity? Did it change anything for you, except for obviously pissing you off more?

Some FBO's out there have few or no amenities and are very uncomfortable to hang around. So what happens? I fatigue sooner. Maybe I'm just not seeing the problem you are. I too would rather be doing other things than sitting at FBO's. But I recognize the fact that I'm at work, not vacation.

It's not that you or anyone else aren't allowed say anything negative about Netjets. It just seems like that's all we ever hear from you on these message boards. And that leads at least me to believe you're unhappy here. Which leads to the obvious question, why not leave?

 

[kman]

They own us for 7 days is total BULLSH!T. Doesn't anybody else see a problem with that kind of attitude?

I have already talked to several union members and sent in several waster reports.

How am I just spinning my wheels. I would like to see the bigger picture before I make a call or send in a report.

Again. how am I bothering a buddy of mine by getting factual information?

Why don't I leave? Cause i am not stupid, I wouldn't leave unless I found a better job

 

[a&p cfiguy]

Just curious, what is Netjets policy regarding drinking on the road (out of uniform at the hotel or local bar off duty)? Someone told me it is very discouraged, is that true?

 

[Caveman]

Next time one you frax guys starts lecturing us airline guys about how much better frax flying is I'm going to refer you back to this thread. What happened to all the big tips, exotic locations, awesome crew meals and 5 star resorts? Relax. I'm just busting yer chops a little bit. I'm not being serious.

172driver: Hey D! How are ya?

 

[say again]

Why do some of you guys get your panties in a bunch when someone says something negative about NJ?? It's not the almighty, perfect company, contrary to popular belief. Granted things are much, much better than in the past, but some things still have to be improved upon (This is from talking with many NJ guys). If you're happy there then good for you, not everybody is. Leaving a company with nothing in job pot is easier said then done, and quite stupid.